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Official Manchester United Thread


Rishabh Desai
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Re: Official Red Devils thread

united seem to have a bad knack of kidnapping italian kids lol

michele fornasier dissappeared a few days ago' date=' and while his academy club fiorentina spent days enquiring his whereabouts, few days later, he turned up at old trafford, apparently ready to sign a contract.

still it's not that bad a thing. young italian kids were never going to get enough play time with italian clubs. ppl like macheda had he stayed with lazio would be nowhere near the first team now. if english clubs want to help bring them up, and send them back over once they ve matured, thanks...[/quote']

The Italian clubs have themselves, the Italian FA and the Italian government to blame for this.

As the law stands, English clubs can offer professional contracts earlier than Italy, and Spain also. Therefore if there's a player who has potential at a "decent" Italian or spanish team, who could gain a professional contract at a big English club and forge a reputation a lot earlier in a big academy, like Macheda, and Fabregas for that matter, then they're bound to take it. It's simply a case of employment law which is giving the English clubs the advantage, and the clubs are exploitning this, as I'm sure the Italian and Spanish sides would do if the boot was on the other foot, and the likes of Inter, Barca etc could snare the Wayne Rooneys of this world.

I think rather than blaming the English clubs for "kidknapping" their better players, they should be lobbying for a change in employment law, or a system to be enforced by UEFA (Something which I had an idea on the other week and posted on here, which could be potential solution to the problem and make all parties happy)

I think what needs to happen is for a "set fee" system to be adopted' date=' whereby if a young player is on the books at whatever academy, be it Leicester or Le Havre, if another club, from whatever country decides they would like a player, a compensation fee is already agreed, similar to the "minimum fee release clause" which, by law has to be written into every spanish pro's contract. This should be made compulsory by FIFA, as well as a percentage (say 20% for this example) of the next [b']2[/b] sales, not including the player returning to his original club.

So for example:

A promising youngster in an academy abroad (Macheda for example) is courted by a big european club (United). as the player is registered to the academy of the club, they are entitled to a fee of say, for example 2m euros (£1.5m) to compensate for the loss of a promising youngster.

The reason I say a percentage of the next 2 sales (and not including the player returning to United, etc) is to stop the bigger clubs from taking advantage of their network of feeder clubs.

Say for example:

United pay the £1.5m for a Macheda from an academy abroad, the club losing the player gets the money, but.....

United "sell" the player to one of their feeder clubs for £1.5m, therefore netting the players original club another £300k and at the end of the season United buy him back for £2m, therefore the other club would only make about an extra 750k in euros, and stop United from paying out big bucks if the player turns out to be immense and is sold on the second time for £20m.

I think this is the only way to stop players with decent talent moving on willy-nilly. It will make the bigger clubs think before they attempt to lure a player from another academy, and the club where the player started out gets proper compensation, dependant on how the player develops at the bigger club.

So, Macheda nets lazio 2m euros, if United sell him for £10m, Lazio get another 2m (2.5m euros) when he's sold on, and then if he was sold again for £15m, Lazio get another 3.75m euros, effectively compensating them with 8.25m euros for a player who never played for the first team. Not bad compensation if you ask me, and like I say is relative to the success the player has after leaving the club.

The idea above could be a workable way of making the system "fairer" on all parties concerned.

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Re: Official Red Devils thread

i was not being serious about the "kidnapping" lol. i can view what english clubs are doing with dispassion because they are doing what italian clubs are doing to south american and african clubs right now(and have been doing for decades). so in a way, any complaints by them is just hypocrisy.

I think the reason for the trend of english clubs(in particular manutd) continuously movin in for young italian players, is because the epl has become such an attractive league. Before italians used to view the premier league as overphysical and nontechnical. Now that has changed. Epl pay better too. Giving it added incentive to move.

Not a good thing for the league, but I don’t think the national team will be affected too much

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Re: Official Red Devils thread

i was not being serious about the "kidnapping" lol. i can view what english clubs are doing with dispassion because they are doing what italian clubs are doing to south american and african clubs right now(and have been doing for decades). so in a way' date=' any complaints by them is just hypocrisy.

I think the reason for the trend of english clubs(in particular manutd) continuously movin in for young italian players, is because the epl has become such an attractive league. Before italians used to view the premier league as overphysical and nontechnical. Now that has changed. Epl pay better too. Giving it added incentive to move.

Not a good thing for the league, but I don’t think the national team will be affected too much[/quote']

Probably a good thing for the national team in all honesty, as when these players like Macheda become first team players, you have a mix of players from different backgrounds and "educations" as such, rather than a squad of 23 "italians" so to speak, it's effectively like having a club feel to the squad, rather than just the best that Italy have produced.

I honestly think that is why England can't seem to crack the bigger tournaments with the national team.

Whereas Spain, Italy, Brazil, Argentina, Holland etc have players being trained all over the world and can all bring different qualities to the mix, the lack of English youngsters abroad kind of limits us with the style we have. We have the "english" way, but not much beyond that tbh. We have plenty of talented players, and a squad depth (apart from forwards) I've not seen in a pool of players eligable for England ever before, and I feel if we did have a few more of our elite players taking the plunge and heading abroad for different styles of play, it would only add to our chances of success in the bigger tournaments.

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Re: Official Red Devils thread

Probably a good thing for the national team in all honesty' date=' as when these players like Macheda become first team players, you have a mix of players from different backgrounds and "educations" as such, rather than a squad of 23 "italians" so to speak, it's effectively like having a club feel to the squad, rather than just the best that Italy have produced.

I honestly think that is why England can't seem to crack the bigger tournaments with the national team.

Whereas Spain, Italy, Brazil, Argentina, Holland etc have players being trained all over the world and can all bring different qualities to the mix, the lack of English youngsters abroad kind of limits us with the style we have. We have the "english" way, but not much beyond that tbh. We have plenty of talented players, and a squad depth (apart from forwards) I've not seen in a pool of players eligable for England ever before, and I feel if we did have a few more of our elite players taking the plunge and heading abroad for different styles of play, it would only add to our chances of success in the bigger tournaments.[/quote']

some good points, especially about england.

however, you kind of touched on one of my fears with your analogy with brazil argentina and holland. those are effectively second rate leagues who sell their stars as soon as they mature. and while you could say that italian players will be in good hands playing for manutd etc, the dangers are that if this kind of thing continuously happen, and that more youngsters desert their club and move abroad just before they are 16, what is point of investing in italian academies? then it becomes a cycle. italian clubs turn more and more to mediocre south americans and africans, because they dont want to spend money in bringing young players through, who leave the moment an english clubs comes in. leading ultimately to fewer and fewer italian youngster coming through the academy in the first place. unlike a lot of clubs in brazil and argentina, who are publics trusts with no financial responsibilities, italian clubs are all businesses. they need to win. they cant just bring young players through, play pretty football, sell away their youngsters and hope their fans are still happy. they have to win things. and if investing in academies no longer improve the prospects of improving the first team, many clubs will simply stop spending the money on their academy

come to think of it, what the english are doing may not actually be that good for the italian national team..

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Re: Official Red Devils thread

some good points' date=' especially about england.

however, you kind of touched on one of my fears with your analogy with brazil argentina and holland. those are effectively second rate leagues who sell their stars as soon as they mature. and while you could say that italian players will be in good hands playing for manutd etc, the dangers are that if this kind of thing continuously happen, and that more youngsters desert their club and move abroad just before they are 16, what is point of investing in italian academies? then it becomes a cycle. italian clubs turn more and more to mediocre south americans and africans, because they dont want to spend money in bringing young players through, who leave the moment an english clubs comes in. leading ultimately to fewer and fewer italian youngster coming through the academy in the first place. unlike a lot of clubs in brazil and argentina, who are publics trusts with no financial responsibilities, italian clubs are all businesses. they need to win. they cant just bring young players through, play pretty football, sell away their youngsters and hope their fans are still happy. they have to win things. and if investing in academies no longer improve the prospects of improving the first team, many clubs will simply stop spending the money on their academy[/quote']

This is why the compensation schemes must come in and be made compulsory. A fixed fee for any youngster on the books at an academy if he decides to move, as well as clauses entitling the original club to fees after this also.

In my example, Macheda would net lazio about 8.5m euros if there was adequate protection in place.

There'll never be gentlemanly conduct in the transfer market, as it's dog eat dog, but at least some sort of leveller is needed in order to ensure everyone involved in the development of a young player gets essentially a bit of the pie when (or if) the player makes it big.

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Re: Official Red Devils thread

This is why the compensation schemes must come in and be made compulsory. A fixed fee for any youngster on the books at an academy if he decides to move' date=' as well as clauses entitling the original club to fees after this also.

In my example, Macheda would net lazio about 8.5m euros if there was adequate protection in place.

There'll never be gentlemanly conduct in the transfer market, as it's dog eat dog, but at least some sort of leveller is needed in order to ensure everyone involved in the development of a young player gets essentially a bit of the pie when (or if) the player makes it big.[/quote']

i have read this and your more indepth post on the previous page.it would be an excellent idea that would certainly stop a lot of what is happening. however, it will be extremely hard to implement, because, for a start the youth team and academy players are on basic level contracts(technically they are not contracts to the club, but rather, contracts to the academy). those low level contracts are unlikely to be able to carry the weight of any complex, big money loopholes. i might find it hard to express this, but let me give you an example. say a 13 year old macheda is asked by lazio academy director to sign an improved academy contract that protects him from that actually happened to him. once young macheda and his family discover that his club values him so much that they are prepared to insert all these complicated money-coated loopholes, they are unlikely to settle for that contract, or even so much as to sign it. macheda will think, if the academy and football club value me so much, i should deserve a better contractual offer than what is on the table. so basically, while what you are suggesting protects the interests of the club, it in a way harms the interests of young macheda. because if he signs such a contract, sure no foreign clubs will move for him, but it might also mean he will have to make do with going through the slow system of italian clubs in bring young players to the senior squad.

in summary, the clauses you suggested are good, but they cant be inserted without the consent of the young player and the family themselves. and the young player may reject any such clause because it infact may harm his own interest and ambition. lazio might be able to tie macheda down with such clauses that you suggest, but that's exactly what they are doing. they are tying him down. and young macheda may not play first team football until say 21. just look at what happened to giovinco at juve. the club was so eager to protect him and reduce his exposure to the public, that he was not given first team football until last year when he was 21, depite the fact that his prodigy has been obvious since 16/17.

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Re: Official Red Devils thread

i have read this and your more indepth post on the previous page.it would be an excellent idea that would certainly stop a lot of what is happening. however' date=' it will be extremely hard to implement, because, for a start the youth team and academy players are on basic level contracts(technically they are not contracts to the club, but rather, contracts to the academy). those low level contracts are unlikely to be able to carry the weight of any complex, big money loopholes. i might find it hard to express this, but let me give you an example. say a 13 year old macheda is asked by lazio academy director to sign an improved academy contract that protects him from that actually happened to him. once young macheda and his family discover that his club values him so much that they are prepared to insert all these complicated money-coated loopholes, they are unlikely to settle for that contract, or even so much as to sign it. macheda will think, if the academy and football club value me so much, i should deserve a better contractual offer than what is on the table. so basically, while what you are suggesting protects the interests of the club, it in a way harms the interests of young macheda. because if he signs such a contract, sure no foreign clubs will move for him, but it might also mean he will have to make do with going through the slow system of italian clubs in bring young players to the senior squad.

in summary, the clauses you suggested are good, but they cant be inserted without the consent of the young player and the family themselves. and the young player may reject any such clause because it infact may harm his own interest and ambition. lazio might be able to tie macheda down with such clauses that you suggest, but that's exactly what they are doing. they are tying him down. and young macheda may not play first team football until say 21. just look at what happened to giovinco at juve. the club was so eager to protect him and reduce his exposure to the public, that he was not given first team football until last year when he was 21, depite the fact that his prodigy has been obvious since 16/17.[/quote']

I think that there shouldn't be any "higher" or "improved" academy contracts, the trigger for these clauses are implemented as soon as the player signs on the dotted line for the academy first time.

If the player truly is good enough, then the bigger clubs I don't think would have a problem paying the compensation to the club, or the club's academy as outlined, as if the player is conceived to be this massive talent, it's worth having him for this nominal fee early on in his education and trying to develop him into the player they think he could be in the "bigger"club's environment.

I don't think this system will restrict the movement of true young talents, but it will stop the poaching of kids who are decent, and have a bit of talent and are just being poached for poaching's sake to stop another club taking him.

And I think the reason United's and Arsenal's academies in particular are getting these talents is because basically Wenger and Ferguson are of the mindset of "if you're good enough, you're old enough" and are more likely to give the players the break in the first team earlier, as Wenger has done with most of his first team squad, and Ferguson has done on numerous occasions.

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Re: Official Red Devils thread

oh i see what you are saying. like putting them under the protection of those regulations as soon as they sign with the acadamy.

well that would certainly eliminate the problem i suggested. still something doesnt feel right in tying 8 year old kids with such a financial cloud. but it would certainly work' date=' and reduce discontent on the young player's behalf too.

infact it s such a good idea i dont know why they dont do something like this. i guess it's probably down to our original problem, that players under 16 cant be offered any contracts from the club, and the clauses and loopholes you suggested, realistically, can only be offered by the football club through the form of a professional contract. that's the only thing i can think of that stop such obvious poaching[/quote']

Effectively every 8 year old kid, regardless of country would be bound by this agreement though, and it would give protection to the club, and stop pushy, money-grabbing parents from blatantly turning their backs on the club that has gave the youngster his initial break, without so much as a thank you.

Like I say, it's a mixture of EU and national beaurocracy, and the fact that Blatter and Platini have no real grip on their positions to actually do something for the good of the game and tackle proper issues, they seem to spend all their time pacifying delegates from other countries and confederations and although they condemn this kind of thing, they haven't got the foresight to actually draw something up and work with bodies outside the game in order to make something happen.

It's all well and good highlighting the problem, but something completely different acting on it.

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Re: Official Red Devils thread

yes i agree absolutely

otherwise i think the basic level compensation is generally deemed sufficient by the law' date=' and restricting the younger player's career potentials too much may lead to an area we dont really want to go into, human rights etc....:eek:

brain wracking debate[/quote']

But......

With regards to the human rights issue etc, already in place as "protection" to clubs is that if players under the age of 24 move clubs when their contract runs out, there is a tribunal which decides on a compensation fee between the clubs, taking into account the player's potential etc etc, so basically what a system like this is doing is making the process start out earlier than before, in a grey area not yet covered, ie the period before a pro contract can be offered.

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Re: Official Red Devils thread

i just wanted to bring up something that was mentioned, which is Van Der Vaart. i still feel they need him.

The reason why is:

Manchester United main threat cam from the wings, nothing wrong with that, but when they try and go through the middle there was no really big threat. Scholes showed some threat, doing some one - twos but really that was it. They came through the middle sometimes but with Van Der Vaart, the threat would increse. When Manu's attacking half is packed with the opposition all United can do is pass it around trying to find gaps. Van der Vaart would get in thoose spaces and thoose paces. This will allow Rooney,Bebratov and Owen to get thoose paces. Van Der Vaart can also shoot well, like scholes. I feel if he is available for not too much Manu Should sign him.

(above is just my views)

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Re: Official Red Devils thread

good win' date=' Birmingham played well second half a couple of time my heart was in my mouth lol, Foster made a brilliant save to denie Benitez. :D[/quote']

I was proud of Bham, was a good performance, looked dangerous at times, Benitez had a great chance to get us a point though, lovely bit of skill to get past Brown. :P:p

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Re: Official Red Devils thread

i just wanted to bring up something that was mentioned' date=' which is Van Der Vaart. i still feel they need him.

The reason why is:

Manchester United main threat cam from the wings, nothing wrong with that, but when they try and go through the middle there was no really big threat. Scholes showed some threat, doing some one - twos but really that was it. They came through the middle sometimes but with Van Der Vaart, the threat would increse. When Manu's attacking half is packed with the opposition all United can do is pass it around trying to find gaps. Van der Vaart would get in thoose spaces and thoose paces. This will allow Rooney,Bebratov and Owen to get thoose paces. Van Der Vaart can also shoot well, like scholes. I feel if he is available for not too much Manu Should sign him.

(above is just my views)[/quote']

Agree wid u. I'm a fan of Van Der Vaart since he plays for Hamburg. And VDV himself has stated that he's interested to continue his career in English. But i don't think this will happen cause we have sooo many players at VDV position.

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Re: Official Red Devils thread

No Ronaldo your not going to win the title.

Probably a 2nd place finish for United

What a load of bunkum :rolleyes:

What people fail to realise is that last season' date=' United's title was based on that run of games where we didn't [u']concede[/u] goals, rather than Ronaldo scoring for fun. We had Vidic, Ferdinand, and VDS to thank more than anyone last season for the fact we won the league.

I'm not saying we won't miss Ronaldo, I just feel that we've still got enough about us to last the 38 game course and still come out on top, basically because we are hard to break down as well as carrying that attacking threat, with or without "el gelled tumbler".

Where I do concede we'll miss Ronaldo is in the pursuit of multiple titles, I think we can win the league, but I don't think we'll go as far in all competitions as last year. Ronaldo has the knack of popping up in the important european games (Porto Away for example) but his record against the bigger teams domestically was distinctly average by the standards he set himself.

Let's face it, he wasn't even the Prem's top scorer last season, so his influence was not as much as people make out domestically. There's only Chelsea that have managed to keep all of their most influential players, so I'd say if anyone they're gonna be the biggest challenge to us this year, and that's an honest opinion, not a dig at Liverpool, I think there'll be there or there abouts again, but I feel we have enough about us to still hold our own against the biggest sides domestically, and maybe a quarter or semi in the Champs league. And the cups? I think the CC will be the kids chance to stake a claim, and the FA cup (at least the early rounds) will be the kids with the "oldies" until the quarters and the team getting progressively stronger from there.

We still have a chance of a good season, but to write off anyone's chances on the basis of losing one player is a blinkered opinion.

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Re: Official Red Devils thread

Well we won yesterday and I wouldn't be a BIT surprised if Wayne Rooney scored tons of goals this season. The guy is a genius. What people don't understand is now Rooney has a free role. People say hes now playing up front and playing better which isn't really the case IMO. Rooney's at his best when you give him a free role. Let him do whatever he wants rather than confining him to a particular position(like we did last season). Was pleasantly surprised to see Fabio start but he had a decent game. But our defensive problems get worse. No Vidic,Ferdiand and Evans(?). And Brown looks hal the player he was when he played 2 seasons ago. Would be interesting to see what we play against Burnley. My Bet would be Fabio-O'Shea-Brown/De Laet-Evra. However Evra is the only one certain to feature. And Nani actually put in a decent cross:eek: P.S Where was Carrick?

i just wanted to bring up something that was mentioned' date=' which is Van Der Vaart. i still feel they need him.

The reason why is:

Manchester United main threat cam from the wings, nothing wrong with that, but when they try and go through the middle there was no really big threat. Scholes showed some threat, doing some one - twos but really that was it. They came through the middle sometimes but with Van Der Vaart, the threat would increse. When Manu's attacking half is packed with the opposition all United can do is pass it around trying to find gaps. Van der Vaart would get in thoose spaces and thoose paces. This will allow Rooney,Bebratov and Owen to get thoose paces. Van Der Vaart can also shoot well, like scholes. I feel if he is available for not too much Manu Should sign him.

(above is just my views)[/quote']

Honestly other than the fact that he is cheap I see no other reason for us to buy him. Our creativity through the middle is Rooney:o

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Re: Official Red Devils thread

What a load of bunkum :rolleyes:

What people fail to realise is that last season' date=' United's title was based on that run of games where we didn't [u']concede[/u] goals, rather than Ronaldo scoring for fun. We had Vidic, Ferdinand, and VDS to thank more than anyone last season for the fact we won the league.

I'm not saying we won't miss Ronaldo, I just feel that we've still got enough about us to last the 38 game course and still come out on top, basically because we are hard to break down as well as carrying that attacking threat, with or without "el gelled tumbler".

Where I do concede we'll miss Ronaldo is in the pursuit of multiple titles, I think we can win the league, but I don't think we'll go as far in all competitions as last year. Ronaldo has the knack of popping up in the important european games (Porto Away for example) but his record against the bigger teams domestically was distinctly average by the standards he set himself.

Let's face it, he wasn't even the Prem's top scorer last season, so his influence was not as much as people make out domestically. There's only Chelsea that have managed to keep all of their most influential players, so I'd say if anyone they're gonna be the biggest challenge to us this year, and that's an honest opinion, not a dig at Liverpool, I think there'll be there or there abouts again, but I feel we have enough about us to still hold our own against the biggest sides domestically, and maybe a quarter or semi in the Champs league. And the cups? I think the CC will be the kids chance to stake a claim, and the FA cup (at least the early rounds) will be the kids with the "oldies" until the quarters and the team getting progressively stronger from there.

We still have a chance of a good season, but to write off anyone's chances on the basis of losing one player is a blinkered opinion.

Agreed, and furthermore United still have the depth that the other teams in the top 4 don't. Take yesterday as an example. VDS, Ferdinand, Vidic, Rafael, Neville all not there and they could still call upon decent reasonably experienced replacements like Foster, Brown, Evans & O'Shea.

Take Carragher, Skrtel & Johnson away from Liverpool and who comes in?

Take Bosingwa, Terry & Carvalho from Chelsea and who comes in?

Answer: Nobody of anywhere near the same standard as United backup players.

United will not as explosive as they have been in the last few years but they will still be very hard to beat and IMO should still be favourites for the title....

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Re: Official Red Devils thread

I think it's a bit early to be making a call on how much you'll miss Ronaldo either way. Let's not forget that yesterday was the sort of game where he often went and put teams like Birmingham to the sword. Had Foster not pulled off that really tidy save from Benitez late on there might have been a completely different reaction today.

That said Rooney's clearly stepped it up a notch or two, he should revel in the role of being the fullcrum of the team, he certainly did yesterday. It still looks a little awkward up front with him and Berbatov, you can see at times that they still both want to operate in similar ways and areas, coming in deep and pulling the strings. If they can find a wavelength and work in tandem then it really could be a decent little partnership, they showed signs yesterday after all, not least in the build up for the goal.

It looks a fearsome defence you've got when everybodies fit, especially now that they should get more protection from the wings in the form of Valencia, who'll work all day long. Just not sure about the amount of ideas you have coming from midfield, an injury to Rooney could be devastating for Utd this season.

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Re: Official Red Devils thread

I think it's a bit early to be making a call on how much you'll miss Ronaldo either way. Let's not forget that yesterday was the sort of game where he often went and put teams like Birmingham to the sword. Had Foster not pulled off that really tidy save from Benitez late on there might have been a completely different reaction today.

That said Rooney's clearly stepped it up a notch or two' date=' he should revel in the role of being the fullcrum of the team, he certainly did yesterday. It still looks a little awkward up front with him and Berbatov, you can see at times that they still both want to operate in similar ways and areas, coming in deep and pulling the strings. If they can find a wavelength and work in tandem then it really could be a decent little partnership, they showed signs yesterday after all, not least in the build up for the goal.

It looks a fearsome defence you've got when everybodies fit, especially now that they should get more protection from the wings in the form of Valencia, who'll work all day long. Just not sure about the amount of ideas you have coming from midfield, an injury to Rooney could be devastating for Utd this season.[/quote']

Yep your right. Rooney MUST stay fit. Apart from the threats wide Rooney is our creative force in the middle and the goalscorer. And as for the ideas from midfield your right again. That's one of the reason why I would pick Ando over Fletcher despite Fletcher being very effective. Ando has that ability to pick out that 1 decisive pass as well as Carrick. And the fact that Nani put in a good cross is a cause for celebration:eek:

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Re: Official Red Devils thread

Yep your right. Rooney MUST stay fit. Apart from the threats wide Rooney is our creative force in the middle and the goalscorer. And as for the ideas from midfield your right again. That's one of the reason why I would pick Ando over Fletcher despite Fletcher being very effective. Ando has that ability to pick out that 1 decisive pass as well as Carrick. And the fact that Nani put in a good cross is a cause for celebration:eek:

Nani's always been a good player and was always going to come good this season, all be it a bit sooner than expected after just one game lol. No-one is going to hit thier full potential when playing a bit part role for any club and now Ronaldo's gone I fully expect Nani to start showing what hes capable of over a substained period in the 1st team.

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