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WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

Could one not argue that in Vietnam it was the will of the American people that was defeated not the American military?

The will of the people yes but the moral of the army was also broken. It was a conflict that could never be 'won' only prolonged. Much like Afghan today. The only thing that prolonged Vietnam was US arrogance that an inferior race could not beat them.

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

Could one not argue that in Vietnam it was the will of the American people that was defeated not the American military?
The will of the people yes but the moral of the army was also broken. It was a conflict that could never be 'won' only prolonged. Much like Afghan today. The only thing that prolonged Vietnam was US arrogance that an inferior race could not beat them.

Pretty interesting as in cases such as these isn't it the will of the people embodied in it's military? A soldier in the US army said since they left to attack the supply lines-they felt alienated between what they were there for-protecting villagers (since you can see what your purpose is) compared to chasing shadows in the jungles.

The Tet offensive was a military failure on Giap part-but a political masterstroke which

showed another side of the war to Americans' date=' one which they did not like. The coordination, strength, and surprise instigated by the Communists led the U.S. to realize that their foe was much stronger than they had expected. [/quote']

http://history1900s.about.com/od/1960s/qt/tetoffensive.htm

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

"President Roosevelt used Al Capone’s Limousine"

On the day of the attack on Pearl Harbor, the Secret Service realized they did not have a have a bulletproof car to transport President Roosevelt safely to Congress to deliver his Infamy Speech. A quick thinking Secret Service agent realized that the U.S. Treasury had seized the bulletproof limo of Al Capone in 1931.

The car was still in working condition and safely transported the president to Congress. President Roosevelt reportedly quipped, “I hope Mr. Capone won’t mind.”

6. Russia and Japan have never signed an official peace treaty with each other to end World War II.

Both countries are still disputing over the rightful ownership of the Kuril Islands.

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

I look forward to watching the film later but i doubt very much it will contain anything that will shake my belief that the USA were completely justified in both of the atomic bomb attacks. And whilst we are on the subject of things that go bang...

ZnomDilySlA

ENGLAND EXPECTS..

The Battle of Trafalgar 21 October 1805

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

xMITNQ6h8pE&list=TLcQx2gSbwXcfGqkc7gHv_t-fKWVRck1Ys

Was this really needed?

Overkill :(

I look forward to watching the film later but i doubt very much it will contain anything that will shake my belief that the USA were completely justified in both of the atomic bomb attacks. And whilst we are on the subject of things that go bang...

ZnomDilySlA

ENGLAND EXPECTS..

The Battle of Trafalgar 21 October 1805

Congrats, Napoleon was a nutcase, glad you guys won :)

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

Overkill :(

No i think not' date=' whilst i don't deny the potential invasion of main land Japan by the Russians was perhaps the deciding factor in their surrender Americans decision to drop both the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs remain totally justified.

It displayed both Americas technical advantage and her willingness to use

it to Stalin proving beyond all doubt that despite her massive advantages in man power Russian aggression could and would be stopped. This strategy was of course ultimately proved correct with the fall of Communism and victory in the cold war. Also i have no sympathy (at all) for the Japanese people, they ( when compared to the Germans) got off extremely lightly for the abominable actions of their Military across Asia, a fact often forgotten here in the West and one which is increasingly being erased from Japanese history books.[/color']

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

No i think not' date=' whilst i don't deny the potential invasion of main land Japan by the Russians was perhaps the deciding factor in their surrender Americans decision to drop both the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs remain totally justified.

It displayed both Americas technical advantage and her willingness to use

it to Stalin proving beyond all doubt that despite her massive advantages in man power Russian aggression could and would be stopped. This strategy was of course ultimately proved correct with the fall of Communism and victory in the cold war. Also i have no sympathy (at all) for the Japanese people, they ( when compared to the Germans) got off extremely lightly for the abominable actions of their Military across Asia, a fact often forgotten here in the West and one which is increasingly being erased from Japanese history books.[/color']

And the Americans? they also got off lightly. I agree with Safir overkill

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

It also cannot be forgotten that to force the Japanese into a surrender, something they refused to do despite the obviousness of losing the war at this stage, an invasion of mainland Japan would have been needed.

The Americans would have had to do this before the Russians for obvious reasons, and until this was done the war would still have raged on.

The horrendous losses the Americans, and most likely British and other Allied forces, would have received are unimaginable. The amount lost in the two explosions would be minuscule in comparison to fighting a fanatical country, completely indoctrinated to die before surrendering.

In fact, it may not have even been possible to pacify the Japanese and a situation many times worse than Vietnam would most likely have occurred.

The fact remains that the Japanese government were fanatical and would not have surrendered without the atomic bombs.

The two explosions were horrible events, never to be repeated. The arms race they sparked cost the global world unimaginable amounts of lives and money. But, at the time and in context, they were completely necessary and justified in my eyes.

Whether or not the technology should ever have been developed is an argument for a much later day though ;)

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

No i think not' date=' whilst i don't deny the potential invasion of main land Japan by the Russians was perhaps the deciding factor in their surrender Americans decision to drop both the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs remain totally justified.

It displayed both Americas technical advantage and her willingness to use

it to Stalin proving beyond all doubt that despite her massive advantages in man power Russian aggression could and would be stopped. This strategy was of course ultimately proved correct with the fall of Communism and victory in the cold war. Also i have no sympathy (at all) for the Japanese people, they ( when compared to the Germans) got off extremely lightly for the abominable actions of their Military across Asia, a fact often forgotten here in the West and one which is increasingly being erased from Japanese history books.[/color']

I agree with your last statement. If you ask about people, they always talk about Germany and rarely about Japan. Japan did horrible things and i emphasize on the horrible and most of it its not known and were erased from history books. The marchs, the japanese mlitary police, biological weapons, cannibalism!!!!!!!!! are as horrible as the Gestapo and prisioner camps, but of course, people know more about Auschwitz than the Japanese islands.

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

It also cannot be forgotten that to force the Japanese into a surrender' date=' something they refused to do despite the obviousness of losing the war at this stage, an invasion of mainland Japan would have been needed.

The Americans would have had to do this before the Russians for obvious reasons, and until this was done the war would still have raged on.

The horrendous losses the Americans, and most likely British and other Allied forces, would have received are unimaginable. The amount lost in the two explosions would be minuscule in comparison to fighting a fanatical country, completely indoctrinated to die before surrendering.

In fact, it may not have even been possible to pacify the Japanese and a situation many times worse than Vietnam would most likely have occurred.

The fact remains that the Japanese government were fanatical and would not have surrendered without the atomic bombs.

The two explosions were horrible events, never to be repeated. The arms race they sparked cost the global world unimaginable amounts of lives and money. But, at the time and in context, they were completely necessary and justified in my eyes.

Whether or not the technology should ever have been developed is an argument for a much later day though ;)[/quote']

Those are all valid points. A war inside Japan would be atrocious, massive, lets not forget, Japan was pretty much intact and their cities running, unlike German and their towns. A homeland invasion would prove costly to all sides. I am not saying i agree with the use of the atomic bomb or disagree, as there is still a lot of questions to answer which i would like to discuss with you.

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

Go on then Dunc' date=' explain to me what you mean?[/color']

What he meant by this was: Americans did also war crimes. Everyone involved did war crimes. Were they justified? Right now, i am not in the mood to discuss it and to really talk about it, we should point all war crimes individually.

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

Whether or not the technology should ever have been developed is an argument for a much later day though ;)

..and in advance of such an argument' date=' i'll happily set my stall out by declaring that ''the destructive power of nuclear weapons is the biggest break through in world peace that mankind has ever devised''[/color']

I agree with your last statement. If you ask about people' date=' they always talk about Germany and rarely about Japan. Japan did horrible things and i emphasize on the horrible and most of it its not known and were erased from history books. The marchs, the japanese mlitary police, biological weapons, cannibalism!!!!!!!!! are as horrible as the Gestapo and prisioner camps, but of course, people know more about Auschwitz than the Japanese islands.[/quote']

Quite right Bruno, Its staggering to think that even to this day, young Germans are burdened with carrying the scar of the crimes committed by the third Reich, but somehow the Japanese are viewed as victims?..

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

..and in advance of such an argument' date=' i'll happily set my stall out by declaring that ''the destructive power of nuclear weapons is the biggest break through in world peace that mankind has ever devised''[/color']

Quite right Bruno, Its staggering to think that even to this day, young Germans are burdened with carrying the scar of the crimes committed by the third Reich, but somehow the Japanese are viewed as victims?..

I shall not Judge any German for their ancestors, never. Unless themselves accept it and support it. I had a german colleague in my history class, the teacher was talking about WWII and of course Germany come to discussion. The teacher asked several students what they think about German actions and this German guy said: "I think its a black time in history of Germany, they should be ashamed, but they were not alone. Others helped."

But yeah, i agree with you once again, surprise, surprise:p. Germans are still judegd and target of jokes and racism, specially because of the recent war games. In the other hand Japanese are seen as the hardworkers and technological "geeks" which i find it "true". But of course, Germans should be treated with respect as well. Certain Germans from the WWII period were mean and bad people. Certain Japaneses from the WWII period were mean and bad people. Today, they are as normal as we are. There are bad and good people everywhere. People told several times the Germans are cold and mean! What they have to support this insane theory? WWII? That was more than 70 years ago! Most of the bad people died, of course some passed and thought their sons and i believe, there are still fanatics, both germans and japaneses. Take the Skinhead for example.

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

Go on then Dunc' date=' explain to me what you mean?[/color']

Well if im not mistaken, the US didnt serve any punishment for their crappy war tactics and careless approach to ending the war.

The Japs take down a military base (Pearl Harbour)

Whereas the Yankees decimate two of the biggest cities in Japan.

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

Well if im not mistaken' date=' the US didnt serve any punishment for their crappy war tactics and careless approach to ending the war.

The Japs take down a military base (Pearl Harbour)

Whereas the Yankees decimate two of the biggest cities in Japan.[/color']

The Germans staged an attack on the Sender Gleiwitz radar station.

The Soviets reduced Berlin to ashes.

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

..and in advance of such an argument' date=' i'll happily set my stall out by declaring that ''the destructive power of nuclear weapons is the biggest break through in world peace that mankind has ever devised''[/color']

I guess you're a Ken Waltz's MAD supporter

Quite right Bruno, Its staggering to think that even to this day, young Germans are burdened with carrying the scar of the crimes committed by the third Reich, but somehow the Japanese are viewed as victims?..

It has to do with relative threat. The Japanese were never really a serious threat (it's an island...cut its supplies and it's a non-threat) but a huge central European continental giant like Germany was.

Even after Pearl Harbor, diplomatic history shows that the first thing FDR prioritized was the German strategy, with the Japanese always known to have a hopeless mission in theirs hands.

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

Well if im not mistaken' date=' the US didnt serve any punishment for their crappy war tactics and careless approach to ending the war.

The Japs take down a military base (Pearl Harbour)

Whereas the Yankees decimate two of the biggest cities in Japan.[/color']

Not for the first time Duncan, i urge you to at least attempt a little research before you unleash your particular brand of stupidity upon an unsuspecting wider world. For example would it surprise you that between 1931 ( the Japanese invasion of Manchuria) its subsequent invasion of mainland China and its activities throughout the second world war an estimated 23 million people lost their lives in the Pacific region?...Google Rape of Nanking. Heres a little taster of what you might find..

The Rape of Nanking, in which 250,000 to 300,000 Chinese civilians were killed, began in December 1937. Modes of murder included torture, immolation, burial alive, and beheading in addition to simple shooting. Among those killed in actual combat during the Japanese invasion of northern China, some were victims of biological warfare agents.

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

Not for the first time Duncan' date=' i urge you to at least attempt a little research before you unleash your particular brand of stupidity upon an unsuspecting wider world. For example would it surprise you that between 1931 ( the Japanese invasion of Manchuria) its subsequent invasion of mainland China and its activities throughout the second world war an estimated 23 million people lost their lives in the Pacific region?...Google Rape of Nanking. Heres a little taster of what you might find..

[/color']

How does this have anything to do with what I am stating?

Im talking about America, not Japan and their injustices.

Some low blows there :eek:

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

Well if im not mistaken' date=' the US didnt serve any punishment for their crappy war tactics[/color']

This is not the random thread. Punishment for crappy war tactics? Seriously? Lets get serious and discuss, which i am enjoying, lets not talk childish.

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

This is not the random thread. Punishment for crappy war tactics? Seriously? Lets get serious and discuss' date=' which i am enjoying, lets not talk childish.[/quote']

?

:confused:

There has to be punishment for dropping nukes on civilian areas, pathetic even for the americans

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

I guess you're a Ken Waltz's MAD supporter

It has to do with relative threat. The Japanese were never really a serious threat (it's an island...cut its supplies and it's a non-threat) but a huge central European continental giant like Germany was.

Even after Pearl Harbor' date=' diplomatic history shows that the first thing FDR prioritized was the German strategy, with the Japanese always known to have a hopeless mission in theirs hands.[/quote']

Well, we are still here Saf and despite 50 years of proxy wars and general nastiness no-one was crazy enough to reach for the button so its hard to say my belief was not justified.:)

No, thats not what i mean..to their credit the Germans have admitted and at least attempted to atone for their shameful history,the Japs on the other hand continue to dispute it B)

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