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WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

?

:confused:

There has to be punishment for dropping nukes on civilian areas' date=' pathetic even for the americans[/color']

You said: - "crappy war tactics". First of all, the nukes isn´t a tactic, its a strategy and the way you post, it seems you criticizing their tactics and operations and calling it crappy. Thats why i said lets be serious. If you were talking about the nukes, my bad. But try to mention it. It wasn´t insinuated in your post. Was it careless? Justified? Thats what we are talking.

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

You said: - "crappy war tactics". First of all' date=' the nukes isn´t a tactic, its a strategy and the way you post, it seems you criticizing their tactics and operations and calling it crappy. Thats why i said lets be serious. If you were talking about the nukes, my bad. But try to mention it. It wasn´t insinuated in your post. Was it careless? Justified? Thats what we are talking.[/quote']

Yeah talking about the bombing of civilian cities in japan.

imo it was Satanic

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

How does this have anything to do with what I am stating?

Im talking about America' date=' not Japan and their injustices.

Some low blows there :eek:[/color']

It has everything, Duncan. You are more concerned to personally attack America than discuss about their crimes and Japanese crimes as well.

The Japs take down a military base (Pearl Harbour)

Whereas the Yankees decimate two of the biggest cities in Japan.

You´re comparing simple actions, but yet horrible without thinking trough the events and consequences.

Thats why i said this:

The Germans staged an attack on the Sender Gleiwitz radar station.

The Soviets reduced Berlin to ashes.

The Japs take down a military base (Pearl Harbour) - Beggining of the Pacific War.

Whereas the Yankees decimate two of the biggest cities in Japan. - End of the Pacific War.

The Germans staged an attack on the Sender Gleiwitz radar station. - Beggining of the WWII/European Theatre.

The Soviets reduced Berlin to ashes. - End of European War.

Comparing simply the beggining with the end, it seems unjustufied. You are thinking about simple events whereas you should think about complex and chain of events.

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

Youre not understanding my point.

Japs play by the rules' date=' the Americans make their own rules[/color']

We are talking about WWII, not modern day, which i could agree with you in some aspects. You won´t talk about Abu Grabhi? You´re just supporting my theory: - You´re personally attacking the Americans".

Lets stick to the topic. WWII and Post War.

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

Well' date=' we are still here Saf and despite 50 years of proxy wars and general nastiness no-one was crazy enough to reach for the button so its hard to say my belief was not justified.:)[/quote']

We were close a few times to an accidental detonation though :o

1. An American plane almost dropped a bomb in North Carolina once due to technical malfunction. This was around the 50s or 60s.

2. During the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Soviet captain on a submarine almost launched a nuke when being threatened by American vessels that didn't know this Soviet sub had a nuke. Both Khrushchev and Kennedy were oblivious of these decisions and only realized afterwards how close they were to an accidental nuclear battle.

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

We are talking about WWII' date=' not modern day, which i could agree with you in some aspects. You won´t talk about Abu Grabhi? You´re just supporting my theory: - You´re personally attacking the Americans".

Lets stick to the topic. WWII and Post War.[/quote']

Not at ALL.

What I have stated is on topic, and true....period.

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

We were close a few times to an accidental detonation though :o

1. An American plane almost dropped a bomb in North Carolina once due to technical malfunction. This was around the 50s or 60s.

2. During the Cuban Missile Crisis' date=' the Soviet captain on a submarine almost launched a nuke when being threatened by American vessels that didn't know this Soviet sub had a nuke. Both Khrushchev and Kennedy were oblivious of these decisions and only realized afterwards how close they were to an accidental nuclear battle.[/quote']

Oh no doubt, buried deep in the Kremlin and Pentagon there are records of scores of near misses that by a combination of luck and good judgement could of triggered a nuclear war. If i recall back in the 80's there was one during a Nato exercise in the Baltic when only the diligence of a lowly Russian missile technician stopped the Reds launching a pre-emptive strike on the West.

Going back to Arampage's original post i was struck by the uniform worn by the American air crew flying the B-29's over Japan. The wearing of just normal fatigues highlights the dominance enjoyed by the USAAF over Japan during the last weeks of the war. A quick nose around the web, suggests that due to a combination of altitude, enhanced defensive armaments and fighter cover, the B-29 lost around 500 aircraft (of these only 150 were lost to enemy fighters or anti-aircraft fire) over Japan despite flying around 30,000 sorties, prompting one air crew member to declare.. it was safer to take part in a bombing run over Japan, than it was to cary out a traing mission in the US.

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

No' date=' thats not what i mean..to their credit the Germans have admitted and at least attempted to atone for their shameful history,the Japs on the other hand continue to dispute it B)

[/color']

It's nationalism, designed to polarize voters. Some of the Japanese ultra-nationalists run on "toughness" platforms, arguing that moderates are wimps and traitors.

Everyone wants to hear nice things about themselves and their countries, and very few politicians would say bad things about their own country without significant foreign pressure to do so.

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

?

:confused:

There has to be punishment for dropping nukes on civilian areas' date=' pathetic even for the americans[/color']

Duncan read my post on the previous page. It will show you why the US used the atom bomb and why it can easily be justified.

Hint, it was used to end the war quickly and efficiently against a fanatical nation. Many people nowadays do not agree with it etc but at the time and in the context it can be seen as the right thing to do.

Japs play by the rules' date=' the Americans make their own rules[/color']

This post is almost criminal. The Japs play by the rules? Wow. Just wow. There is literally nothing that can be said to this, except that should the Japs have had the Nuclear weapon they would not have stopped at two cities.

If you want a quick way to show how they did not 'play by the rules' feel free to google Nanking massacre or Bataan Death March.

Also some of the experiments the Japanese committed on prisoners make the Germans look gentle.

We were close a few times to an accidental detonation though :o

1. An American plane almost dropped a bomb in North Carolina once due to technical malfunction. This was around the 50s or 60s.

2. During the Cuban Missile Crisis' date=' the Soviet captain on a submarine almost launched a nuke when being threatened by American vessels that didn't know this Soviet sub had a nuke. Both Khrushchev and Kennedy were oblivious of these decisions and only realized afterwards how close they were to an accidental nuclear battle.[/quote']

Just so you know, the US have 'misplaced' 7 nuclear devices since 1950. They are still unaccounted for.

Two such occasions of 'accidents' were when a plane carrying nuclear weapons broke up in mid air. It's payload was dropped into a river in America (cannot recall the name) and they are still in there somewhere.

Another occasion was when two planes collided in mid air over Spanish countryside. Nuclear debris was spread around for, i believe, 40km and the US had to dig up and ship off contaminated land.

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

This post is almost criminal. The Japs play by the rules? Wow. Just wow. There is literally nothing that can be said to this' date=' except that should the Japs have had the Nuclear weapon they would not have stopped at two cities.

If you want a quick way to show how they did not 'play by the rules' feel free to google Nanking massacre or Bataan Death March.

Also some of the experiments the Japanese committed on prisoners make the Germans look gentle.

[/quote']

I think he is refering in today time. But if he is really talking about WWII! WOW! Who invaded China, Manchuria? Japan! Thats not playing by the rules. Japan did biological experiments and did cannibalism as well. My stomach is screaming.

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

Duncan read my post on the previous page. It will show you why the US used the atom bomb and why it can easily be justified.

Hint' date=' it was used to end the war quickly and efficiently against a fanatical nation. Many people nowadays do not agree with it etc but at the time and in the context it can be seen as the right thing to do.

This post is almost criminal. The Japs play by the rules? Wow. Just wow. There is literally nothing that can be said to this, except that should the Japs have had the Nuclear weapon they would not have stopped at two cities.

If you want a quick way to show how they did not 'play by the rules' feel free to google Nanking massacre or Bataan Death March.

Also some of the experiments the Japanese committed on prisoners make the Germans look gentle.

Just so you know, the US have 'misplaced' 7 nuclear devices since 1950. They are still unaccounted for.

Two such occasions of 'accidents' were when a plane carrying nuclear weapons broke up in mid air. It's payload was dropped into a river in America (cannot recall the name) and they are still in there somewhere.

Another occasion was when two planes collided in mid air over Spanish countryside. Nuclear debris was spread around for, i believe, 40km and the US had to dig up and ship off contaminated land.[/quote']

I know why they did it. But its not justified you cant just go around killing children and normal people just because its easier. Thats completely messed up

And to top things of they were praised because of what they did.

You know what i mean by playing by the rules.

Its war not kill the innocent people in the cities because we are tired and want to go home.

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

None of you guys are understanding what im saying.

Im not saying anything about Japan' date=' so please dont use them in the argument.

I am saying that the americans werent punished for their crimes.[/color']

So as the British and French. They won the war:(. Its a shame they didn´t respond to any actions though.

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

None of you guys are understanding what im saying.

Im not saying anything about Japan' date=' so please dont use them in the argument.

I am saying that the americans werent punished for their crimes.[/color']

History is written by the victor. Has always been that way until very very recent times.

It was total war, every nation committed war crimes. You cannot persecute every single person who did a single thing wrong in the war. The fact is that it was the most brutal war that mankind has ever seen.

It is all about context. Nowadays sitting at home it seems very black and white, but when you are in the middle of something that terrible, something that you had not signed up for. Then things, and perceptions change.

So yes the Allies did commit crimes, but in war generally only the losing sides used to be punished. That is just the way it used to be.

To call the atom bomb a war crime, can be taken either way. Personally I think to protract the war by at least another two years, along with the lives of hundreds of thousands more Allied and, most likely, millions of Japanese civillians lives would be more of a 'war crime'.

You just have to remember it is all about context and you cannot look at the events of World War Two and previous with today's perspective.

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

History is written by the victor. Has always been that way until very very recent times.

It was total war' date=' every nation committed war crimes. You cannot persecute every single person who did a single thing wrong in the war. The fact is that it was the most brutal war that mankind has ever seen.

It is all about context. Nowadays sitting at home it seems very black and white, but when you are in the middle of something that terrible, something that you had not signed up for. Then things, and perceptions change.

So yes the Allies did commit crimes, but in war generally only the losing sides used to be punished. That is just the way it used to be.

To call the atom bomb a war crime, can be taken either way. Personally I think to protract the war by at least another two years, along with the lives of hundreds of thousands more Allied and, most likely, millions of Japanese civillians lives would be more of a 'war crime'.

You just have to remember it is all about context and you cannot look at the events of World War Two and previous with today's perspective.[/quote']

I couldn´t agree more. Who would persecute the Americans? The Americans themselves? Everyone commited war crimes. How far can you go to save your familly? What can you do to ensure the future of your son?

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

So as the British and French. They won the war:(. Its a shame they didn´t respond to any actions though.

What? I have no idea what you are talking about.

History is written by the victor. Has always been that way until very very recent times.

It was total war' date=' every nation committed war crimes. You cannot persecute every single person who did a single thing wrong in the war. The fact is that it was the most brutal war that mankind has ever seen.

It is all about context. Nowadays sitting at home it seems very black and white, but when you are in the middle of something that terrible, something that you had not signed up for. Then things, and perceptions change.

So yes the Allies did commit crimes, but in war generally only the losing sides used to be punished. That is just the way it used to be.

To call the atom bomb a war crime, can be taken either way. Personally I think to protract the war by at least another two years, along with the lives of hundreds of thousands more Allied and, most likely, millions of Japanese civillians lives would be more of a 'war crime'.

You just have to remember it is all about context and you cannot look at the events of World War Two and previous with today's perspective.[/quote']

True, but that doesnt mean what they didnt wasnt wrong.

What other nations intentionally bombed civilians?

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

What? I have no idea what you are talking about.

True' date=' but that doesnt mean what they didnt wasnt wrong.

What other nations intentionally bombed civilians?[/color']

Germany bombed London with missiles.

Germany bombed Amsterdam in an ultimatum

UK bombed German industrial towns along with the Americans.

Japan bombed several asian regions.

That streak of campaigns was called Bomb Blitz or Shock Bombing.

So you´re saying America was the only country who bombed civilians?

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

Germany bombed London with missiles.

Germany bombed Amsterdam in an ultimatum

UK bombed German industrial towns along with the Americans.

Japan bombed several asian regions.

That streak of campaigns was called Bomb Blitz or Shock Bombing.

So you´re saying America was the only country who bombed civilians?

LOL dude?

I ask a question :P

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

Britain conducted one of the worst bombing campaigns ever during WWII. Yet we celebrate it as Bomber Command and the orchestrator 'Bomber Harris' was and is considered a national hero. It decided the war almost single handedly.

I just find it funny how we as a nation teach our kids about the horrors of the Blitz and other atrocities that have been the West's doing throughout history, yet gloss over the fact that we literally razed whole cities the size of Coventry to the ground in Germany with chemical incendiary bombs, which I believe are now banned by the Geneva convention.

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

Britain conducted one of the worst bombing campaigns ever during WWII. Yet we celebrate it as Bomber Command and the orchestrator 'Bomber Harris' was and is considered a national hero. It decided the war almost single handedly.

I just find it funny how we as a nation teach our kids about the horrors of the Blitz and other atrocities that have been the West's doing throughout history' date=' yet gloss over the fact that we literally razed whole cities the size of Coventry to the ground in Germany with chemical incendiary bombs, which I believe are now banned by the Geneva convention.[/quote']

Best thing about the bombing campaign is that it did just about nothing. Was a morale booster at best. Bombing campaign had no effect on the war, once the Allies broke through Normandy and the Russians won at Kursk Germany was always going to capitulate.

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

Best thing about the bombing campaign is that it did just about nothing. Was a morale booster at best. Bombing campaign had no effect on the war' date=' once the Allies broke through Normandy and the Russians won at Kursk Germany was always going to capitulate.[/quote']

The Allied bombing campaign was a compete success from our point of view. You could argue that it was unjustified as it started quite late on in the War and Germany was beginning the collapse anyway, but it was a success nonetheless.

It obliterated their manufacturing and completely destroyed the people's morale. Like you say it provided plenty of propaganda for our press too. It's just that it wiped cities off the face of the earth too, completely unnecessarily.

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Re: WWII and Post-War (Military History Fans)

Britain conducted one of the worst bombing campaigns ever during WWII. Yet we celebrate it as Bomber Command and the orchestrator 'Bomber Harris' was and is considered a national hero. It decided the war almost single handedly.

I just find it funny how we as a nation teach our kids about the horrors of the Blitz and other atrocities that have been the West's doing throughout history' date=' yet gloss over the fact that we literally razed whole cities the size of Coventry to the ground in Germany with chemical incendiary bombs, which I believe are now banned by the Geneva convention.[/quote']

When you say worst, do you mean in effectiveness or loss of civilian life? either way drop the post war hindsight and apply a little historical context if you please..:)

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