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Finances

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Re: Finances

Hi all' date='

A quick note to address a few things that I have read on this thread.

We most definitely do read the forum and feedback that forumers provide (new and old). SM has always taken note of this feedback in the development process going right back to start of the game - and we always will as we see the community as a big part of SM.

Based on what I have read, I'm sure some people might be minded to disagree with me here but I can assure you that our primary focus is on making the best game we possibly can. We are all huge football fans at SM and spend a lot of time debating/testing new features and existing features to try and make sure it fits into the ethos of creating a great football game that everyone can play for free.

I understand the finance changes have been emotive, but in our view they were absolutely necessary given the mechanics of the game had shifted towards incentivising some unhelpful things like super squads, loan manipulations, player exchange deals rendering cash deals ineffective, hyper-inflation reducing cash effectiveness etc, etc. This things were polarising GWs and in some the transfer market had frozen and sometimes ALL the playing talent was owned by just a few clubs who had farmed their way to the top rather than skilful scouting. It is of course a balancing act, but the changes have been made to try and lessen the impact of these things and bring a competitive transfer scenario back to GWs - the notion of small club v big club is true to the extent that depending on the club you manage (and it's size) this can perhaps be seen as the 'difficulty setting' of SM in some regards...and a bigger stadium, fan base, starting balance etc all amounts to a headstart at the outset as it does in the real world.

I would urge you all to keep these posts coming as they do get heard and discussed and always form part of the development process.

Have a good weekend - speak soon.

Eric[/quote']

I echo the thanks for taking the time to read and respond.

I would like to raise the primary issue once again that the "one size fits all" method doesn't work - it fixes the issue in game worlds where the problems you mentioned exist, but destroys the market in other worlds where there was no problem.

It also doesn't really affect the big clubs in any game world, yet financially destroys any small club and makes it impossible to bring one up through the divisions any more.

There has to be a middle ground that allows all clubs to flourish if they are managed well, without allowing the big clubs to dominate leagues no matter what - big clubs are big clubs because they win, not just "because they are". If, for example, Charlton were promoted to the premiership (yeah, yeah ;)) and won it two/seasons in a row as well as doing well in CL (too far? :D), you bet they'd end up with more supporters, better attendance, better sponsorship, etc.

If a club has been managed for years by the same person, that loyalty could be rewarded by the chairman with extra cash bonuses each year, and/or stadium improvements. If the club is successful in the top leagues and international competitions, the chairman could give extra bonuses or stadium improvements, as well as a big jump in merchandise and sponsorship.

This would allow smaller clubs to be competitive with the proper time and effort, not just jumping straight in and getting the rewards. Yes, this would also benefit big clubs with long term managers, but hey, if you put in years of effort to build up a club to the top of the league with great players, you shouldn't be penalised. This way, your big clubs wouldn't automatically dominate financially in established game worlds, but would be "easy mode", while small clubs could still be raised up eventually, and be on a level footing with the big clubs after several seasons of good management, eg "hard mode", as you mentioned.

Conversely, if a big club consistently underperforms, their merchandise and support base should start to drop to reflect this.

I know a lot of SM data is based on real life, but surely a % modifier could be added to individual clubs to allow for this? Big club relegated, -10% attendance. Manage a club for 3+ seasons, 5% capacity bonus. Win the top league with a smaller club, 5% capacity bonus and 15% merchandise sales and sponsorship. That sort of thing.

Reward loyalty and effort, not just towards a club, but towards the game as well.

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Re: Finances

I echo the thanks for taking the time to read and respond.

I would like to raise the primary issue once again that the "one size fits all" method doesn't work - it fixes the issue in game worlds where the problems you mentioned exist' date=' but destroys the market in other worlds where there was no problem.

It also doesn't really affect the big clubs in any game world, yet financially destroys any small club and makes it impossible to bring one up through the divisions any more.

There has to be a middle ground that allows all clubs to flourish if they are managed well, without allowing the big clubs to dominate leagues no matter what - big clubs are big clubs because they win, not just "because they are". If, for example, Charlton were promoted to the premiership (yeah, yeah ;)) and won it two/seasons in a row as well as doing well in CL (too far? :D), you bet they'd end up with more supporters, better attendance, better sponsorship, etc.

If a club has been managed for years by the same person, that loyalty could be rewarded by the chairman with extra cash bonuses each year, and/or stadium improvements. If the club is successful in the top leagues and international competitions, the chairman could give extra bonuses or stadium improvements, as well as a big jump in merchandise and sponsorship.

This would allow smaller clubs to be competitive with the proper time and effort, not just jumping straight in and getting the rewards. Yes, this would also benefit big clubs with long term managers, but hey, if you put in years of effort to build up a club to the top of the league with great players, you shouldn't be penalised. This way, your big clubs wouldn't automatically dominate financially in established game worlds, but would be "easy mode", while small clubs could still be raised up eventually, and be on a level footing with the big clubs after several seasons of good management, eg "hard mode", as you mentioned.

Conversely, if a big club consistently underperforms, their merchandise and support base should start to drop to reflect this.

I know a lot of SM data is based on real life, but surely a % modifier could be added to individual clubs to allow for this? Big club relegated, -10% attendance. Manage a club for 3+ seasons, 5% capacity bonus. Win the top league with a smaller club, 5% capacity bonus and 15% merchandise sales and sponsorship. That sort of thing.

Reward loyalty and effort, not just towards a club, but towards the game as well.[/quote']

Like this......

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Re: Finances

I echo the thanks for taking the time to read and respond.

I would like to raise the primary issue once again that the "one size fits all" method doesn't work - it fixes the issue in game worlds where the problems you mentioned exist' date=' but destroys the market in other worlds where there was no problem.

It also doesn't really affect the big clubs in any game world, yet financially destroys any small club and makes it impossible to bring one up through the divisions any more.

There has to be a middle ground that allows all clubs to flourish if they are managed well, without allowing the big clubs to dominate leagues no matter what - big clubs are big clubs because they win, not just "because they are". If, for example, Charlton were promoted to the premiership (yeah, yeah ;)) and won it two/seasons in a row as well as doing well in CL (too far? :D), you bet they'd end up with more supporters, better attendance, better sponsorship, etc.

If a club has been managed for years by the same person, that loyalty could be rewarded by the chairman with extra cash bonuses each year, and/or stadium improvements. If the club is successful in the top leagues and international competitions, the chairman could give extra bonuses or stadium improvements, as well as a big jump in merchandise and sponsorship.

This would allow smaller clubs to be competitive with the proper time and effort, not just jumping straight in and getting the rewards. Yes, this would also benefit big clubs with long term managers, but hey, if you put in years of effort to build up a club to the top of the league with great players, you shouldn't be penalised. This way, your big clubs wouldn't automatically dominate financially in established game worlds, but would be "easy mode", while small clubs could still be raised up eventually, and be on a level footing with the big clubs after several seasons of good management, eg "hard mode", as you mentioned.

Conversely, if a big club consistently underperforms, their merchandise and support base should start to drop to reflect this.

I know a lot of SM data is based on real life, but surely a % modifier could be added to individual clubs to allow for this? Big club relegated, -10% attendance. Manage a club for 3+ seasons, 5% capacity bonus. Win the top league with a smaller club, 5% capacity bonus and 15% merchandise sales and sponsorship. That sort of thing.

Reward loyalty and effort, not just towards a club, but towards the game as well.[/quote']

I kinda agree, but also disagree :)

Ive taken a club from 4th div to 1st div in consecutive seasons...an lets be honest, its EASY lol.

I imagine the majority have. It aint nothing special...

I welcome ANYTHING that SM can throw at me to make it more challenging!

But on the other side, once you have made it to the top...you should start seeing the benefits of your hard work. Teams need to grow in game stasis, rather than how they are doing in RL.

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Re: Finances

Eric,

Thank you for your response. I appreciate your words and explanations. However I must agree with the others here.

I think one of the keys about soccer manager and soccer (sorry, I am American:p) management games is that you CAN bring your favorite players to your team. And when people get those players on their team, they become attached to them. There are players on my team that I have followed since they were wee little 67's and are now decent players. They aren't on my first team, but I like them and they get games occasionally. I actually started to follow teams and players in real life that I had never heard of last year.

I also have a few but not too many stars on my team which require wages which I will soon be unable to afford. The kinda ridiculous thing is that I don't want to let them go. I like looking at their stats for my squad and all the achievements they have garnered under me. I want to keep them, and in order to pay for them I buy people solely so that they will rise and I sell them to pay for 1 or 2 weeks wages. because of this, my squad is HUGE. My team is filled to the brim with people in my human trafficking scheme. I am a mighty slaver selling my victims who will never play a game and somehow rose in value while not even making it to the bench.

How unrealistic is that?

I don't see Manchester United buying random dudes just to sell them back to their old team in order to pay Rooney's wages. I know you want it to be more realistic, but in truth, you are moving farther away from it with these recent changes, mostly because I think you are focusing on a 'fair' or 'math' approach while forgetting about the human element.

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Re: Finances

I would also like to say that I do appreciate you trying different things. If everything was the same and nothing ever changed, the game would become boring and people would stop playing.

In fact I like some of the changes which have been made, such as nerfing the player trading and the 50% pay loan deals. Maybe I am in the minority, but I do support you in this regard.

But in regards to making cash king and leaving small teams tied to real world %s you should listen to your customers because the customer is always right.

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Re: Finances

Eric,

The changes make sense, in placing emphasis on cash. However, one key aspect has been overlooked. You haven't married this - the emphasis on cash - with an increase in available cash.

For example. I've just come second in an English GW. Prize money? 3.5 million? Sponsorship and TV money is also small fry.

You should look, imo, in bumping these significantly (depending on GW).

So, in an English gameworld - winning the league should be say, £25m: £18m for second etc all the way down. TV money should be bumped too, and the euro comps spiked (thus getting more people to sign up for them...).

in summary - if cash is king, print some!!

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Re: Finances

I think I have the same concern as others in this game. You developers have said this will cover the loopholes n preventing mega rich n powerful club but i think it will be an opposite. Like my case for example, i have a very rich club and a decent 2nd division club. after the changes, i just have sell some players for my big club to compensate the wages paid but in the other club, i struggle with finance as i sell player, the money will be soon used up in a few weeks (suspect there's bug with wages) and also the small rating changes in high rating player is highly profitable but they hardly can be bought by small-sized club with high risk. Its becoming very hard to bring a club up the division as there is less income. i urges developers so that they can help smaller club with high achievement with not only prize money but other long term support such as enlarging stadium capacity and others

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Re: Finances

I think I have the same concern as others in this game. You developers have said this will cover the loopholes n preventing mega rich n powerful club but i think it will be an opposite. Like my case for example' date=' i have a very rich club and a decent 2nd division club. after the changes, i just have sell some players for my big club to compensate the wages paid but in the other club, i struggle with finance as i sell player, the money will be soon used up in a few weeks (suspect there's bug with wages) and also the small rating changes in high rating player is highly profitable but they hardly can be bought by small-sized club with high risk. Its becoming very hard to bring a club up the division as there is less income. i urges developers so that they can help smaller club with high achievement with not only prize money but other long term support such as enlarging stadium capacity and others[/quote']

Thank you Eric for your words, but they ARE JUST WORDS. If SM can't see the picture being painted on this thread then SORRY you will just have to watch what happens here onwards. I suspect you will eventually have to change tack, but the sooner the better & the later the bigger failure on SM's part.

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Re: Finances

Hi Soccahappy,

I think I follow your meaning here and I can of course understand the general themes being raised and discussed here.

Earlier on in the thread, I felt it was important to re-assert the point that the way we have always worked at SM is by starting with an issue (quite often raised on the forum), then we have a look at the whole picture...so analyse our game data across all the GWs taking into context all the things you would expect re. game development and then work this process up into new developments and features ... the key point being that the forum input has been and always will be an important strand of this overall process. I mention this because, in my interpretation, this is the 'action' which we apply to any aspect of the game. We try and make sure we don't rush into new features and so ease into new development areas...and the game is exactly that, a continuous development with the community at it's core.

So threads like this are a key part of it. I understand that you (and many others) have a clear view of how you want this development to progress and it is good news for us that we get such feedback for the reasons I mention.

Of course this is more 'words' but having described the process we take for the game's development, I hope you understand the 'action' behind them too.

Speak soon

Eric

Thank you Eric for your words' date=' but they ARE JUST WORDS. If SM can't see the picture being painted on this thread then SORRY you will just have to watch what happens here onwards. I suspect you will eventually have to change tack, but the sooner the better & the later the bigger failure on SM's part.[/quote']

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Re: Finances

Why is my "weekly" wage expenditure double my squads weekly wage total. Have they started paying players per game?????

I was at a position where I was basically breaking even over 2 weeks, my home game would offset my squad's wages.

I go from very carefully breaking even to bleeding an entire squad's weekly wage every damn week?

Someone please shed some light on what the deal is!

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Re: Finances

Why is my "weekly" wage expenditure double my squads weekly wage total. Have they started paying players per game?????

I was at a position where I was basically breaking even over 2 weeks' date=' my home game would offset my squad's wages.

I go from very carefully breaking even to bleeding an entire squad's weekly wage every damn week?

Someone please shed some light on what the deal is![/quote']

I believe the wages have always been per 'turn'. They have now just been displayed weekly. It just looks more depressing now :D

I like the idea mentioned earlier about clubs stature being used to bulk up their financial power. The better you do, the more reward you get in order to push your team over the edge into the elite bracket of clubs like your Manchester Utd/City, Chelsea etc.

Clubs shouldn't really have to buy players just because they will rise and sell them on at a profit back to their original clubs to pay wages, the usual income should be a major part of that. I personally prefer to budget my clubs on a season by season basis rather than weekly or turn by turn. Once you factor in the season ticket money and prize money (rubbish as it usually is) then you can afford to lose a certain amount each week and be sustainable which is more accurate than just going by the weekly figures.

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Re: Finances

I believe the wages have always been per 'turn'. They have now just been displayed weekly. It just looks more depressing now :D

Exactly right :)

I personally prefer to budget my clubs on a season by season basis rather than weekly or turn by turn. Once you factor in the season ticket money and prize money (rubbish as it usually is) then you can afford to lose a certain amount each week and be sustainable which is more accurate than just going by the weekly figures.

Id also like to see a season financial "forecast", for the season ahead. Would help loads to keep within budget. But would like them to keep turn to turn as well. The more ways a club can see their spreadsheet the better. All the new updated stuff is impractical to me.

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Re: Finances

Why is my "weekly" wage expenditure double my squads weekly wage total. Have they started paying players per game?????

I was at a position where I was basically breaking even over 2 weeks' date=' my home game would offset my squad's wages.

I go from very carefully breaking even to bleeding an entire squad's weekly wage every damn week?

Someone please shed some light on what the deal is![/quote']

Wages are always game by game. New finace changes were brought it including loaned players wages @ 50%. My game worlds are pretty much empy.

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Re: Finances

Exactly right :)

Id also like to see a season financial "forecast"' date=' for the season ahead. Would help loads to keep within budget. But would like them to keep turn to turn as well. The more ways a club can see their spreadsheet the better. All the new updated stuff is impractical to me.[/quote']

A forecast could be useful, maybe your chairman could set you targets at the start of the season (as he currently does) but with more financial implications if you fail to meet these expectations. These chairman expectations could be used to set your financial forecast for the season ahead with the assumption you will meet them and no more.

In my opinion, the chairman should set wage caps and give you a transfer kitty based on the clubs financial health with any further funds you bring in being kept by you to spend on your squad. This should be based on your previous season(s) financial performance as well as team performance and how you did with your seasons expectations. I am well aware that this sort of feature will never pass on this game because too many people will whine about how unfair it is that their side can't get all the players they worked hard to scout :rolleyes:

For this to work however, you would need to set a standard wage for each rating for all players. IE a player rated 75 would command a £5k a week wage but a 81 would be £9k a week as standard. That would help you know what kind of financial implication each signing has on your team. Concerns regarding wages of players should be scrapped in favour of seasonal reviews by players on their wages. This way you still get the advantage of having lower wages on your risers for the remainder of the season and will have ample opportunity to sell them on to avoid the extra wage increase and you also make a profit which will in turn help your next seasons finances as set by your chairman. At the end of the season you could get a message stating that 'Neymar' would like a new contract due to his development as a player over the course of the season which if you have decided not to sell him by the last day of the season, he will automatically get a contract with the same years left on it but with a new wage based on the earlier mentioned structure. The same can be said about players who drop ratings, you could be told that since 'Torres' value to the team has dropped he has been given a lower wage to reflect his squad status being devalued.

The wage cap would prevent squads of ridiculous numbers but if handled properly would still allow the scouters to go and scout the talent that they want and still turn a profit on it. It would just mean they have to be a bit more selective about who they go for and it would help make players spread around a bit more which can only help the game grow in my eyes. If there is a more competitive edge to gameworlds, people will be more inclined to stay with clubs and build something. Once sides get to the higher divisions, they will get the chance to become a big club and earn financial firepower over rivals. If they do this, they not only strengthen themselves but weaken their opponents as their clubs 'stature' will be effected by poorer performances in the league as a result of your clubs success.

I understand the initial response will be 'yet more advantages for big clubs' but is it really? Let's be fair about it, if you take a division four Rochdale then you have no business with Manchester United or Chelsea as you are not in direct competition with them for anything. So the fact that they can go and splash £30m on one player and you can't may not seem fair. But if you manage your club well and bring in the really good young talented players in early, your club has them and you are under no obligation to sell them to anyone until the end of the season when the wages will go up. Even then, you certainly won't be forced to sell them on because if you have managed your finances and your teams performances on the pitch well then you will be able to absorb the increases. At the same time, you will be able to raise transfer cash the same way as you do now by buying/selling risers so you will have money to spend on improving.

Back for a moment to the expectations, if you do meet them and no more then the finances do not change so you know where you stand for next season. The chairman may say to you that since you have a transfer budget of say £40m, you can surrender a portion of that IF YOU WISH for a small increase in wages. This should only happen if you increase your transfer budget by a significant percentage though, this makes it harder for bigger clubs to get this than the smaller teams because their initial budget is higher so a much higher physical cash increase is required for this offer to be made. If the expectation means you gain promotion then you should be given a secondary financial forecast based on the finances of being in the higher division. The same goes if you get into the European competitions, the extra tv/gate should be shown in your budget.

I could drone on even longer about my ideas on this but would be interested to hear any responses from those of you that have managed to stay with my ramblings for this long before doing so to avoid wasting anymore of my own or your time :D

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Respuesta: Finances

Speaking about finances.. Has anyone noticed that in "not gold game worlds" smfa competitions don't give longer money income? Very bad move SM, very bad move. So basically you bring your team to champions league.. But as you play matches you don't recieve income, what?! Before by playing a match in CL, depending on your stadium, you got some extra milions regardless of that being a gold game world or not...

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Re: Respuesta: Finances

Speaking about finances.. Has anyone noticed that in "not gold game worlds" smfa competitions doesn't give longer money? Very bad move SM' date=' very bad move. So basically you bring your team to champions league.. But as you play matches you don't recieve income, ***?! Before by playing a match in CL, depending on your stadium, you got some extra milions regardless or gold game world or not...[/quote']

Really?!.....

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Re: Finances

What are SM doing??? I left Eastbourne in EC 7526 and Exeter in EC 6456 today. I've had these clubs over a long time and has build up a big and strong squad with solid finances. (over 200 mill in cash and 94-95 average in line-up for both clubs)

Just for fun I searched to see if any of these clubs had been snapped yet.

No one had snapped them but the balance for Eastbourne is now 5,1 mill and 6,3 mill for Exeter. This means SM stole over 200 mill from these clubs. No wonder people are getting fed up with this game...

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Re: Finances

What are SM doing??? I left Eastbourne in EC 7526 and Exeter in EC 6456 today. I've had these clubs over a long time and has build up a big and strong squad with solid finances. (over 200 mill in cash and 94-95 average in line-up for both clubs)

Just for fun I searched to see if any of these clubs had been snapped yet.

No one had snapped them but the balance for Eastbourne is now 5' date='1 mill and 6,3 mill for Exeter.[b'] This means SM stole over 200 mill from these clubs.[/b] No wonder people are getting fed up with this game...

Wow, that is bad! I once randomly lost 15mil and I was angry, I dont know what I'd do if I lost 200mil! I've kinda lost interest in the game. Ive still got my clubs but my love of the game is slowly going

Btw, nice to see you on the forum, havent seen you on here in a while :)

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Re: Finances

I had the same problem with a man city team I built up over years, the custom gameworld dwindled from 50 managed teams to around 10 so I left. a month later went to check out my team and instead of having £88 million that I left them with they had £5million so I did not rejoin them, very angry. this is a gameworld where teams cannot buy of unmanaged teams so this was not the reason for loss of over £80 million and nobody else had joined the team in this time.

complete joke sm :mad:

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Re: Finances

What are SM doing??? I left Eastbourne in EC 7526 and Exeter in EC 6456 today. I've had these clubs over a long time and has build up a big and strong squad with solid finances. (over 200 mill in cash and 94-95 average in line-up for both clubs)

Just for fun I searched to see if any of these clubs had been snapped yet.

No one had snapped them but the balance for Eastbourne is now 5' date='1 mill and 6,3 mill for Exeter.[b'] This means SM stole over 200 mill from these clubs.[/b] No wonder people are getting fed up with this game...

Intersesting. I had a super team a couple of years back but was bored of the GW so started selling off whoever I could over a period of 24hrs before I quit the GW. By the time I left I had managed to sell off 6-7 hundred million. I wonder whether that got wiped or if its a new thing?

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Re: Finances

What are SM doing??? I left Eastbourne in EC 7526 and Exeter in EC 6456 today. I've had these clubs over a long time and has build up a big and strong squad with solid finances. (over 200 mill in cash and 94-95 average in line-up for both clubs)

Just for fun I searched to see if any of these clubs had been snapped yet.

No one had snapped them but the balance for Eastbourne is now 5' date='1 mill and 6,3 mill for Exeter.[b'] This means SM stole over 200 mill from these clubs.[/b] No wonder people are getting fed up with this game...

Unbelievable Glen: You got my interest so I checked the club I packed in 2 weeks or so ago, they HAD OVER £600million! NOW got 77million :eek:

Ohhhh and ...... everybody else has resigned too, ALL GONE, but as I am GW owner it's still up & running (while end of season I guess)

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