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The Official Financial Fair Play Gameworld Thread


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Re: The Official Financial Fair Play Gameworld Thread For the love of god Ben will you stop already. Di Maria is not the problem...who cares where he goes...the problem is your divine ego and manipul

Re: The Official Financial Fair Play Gameworld Thread

Current system looks great...I have no argument with it.

The first part of this response is fine...I will not argue with your calculations...I have already said I am not as much of a numbers man as others in the group which is why I make suggestions to see what the response is. I did not say there was anything wrong with the formula - I just made a suggestion' date=' based on logic, that a constant fixed amount could be reflected differently by different clubs in different situations. So was the quick dig about me having opinions and maybe not being happy really necessary?

I agree that Chelsea (not ME by the way) had the most amount of players valued at external...however, as I have said before, we had a late start to being able to transfer in the first season due to Man C and with the added short season, the slowness of external bids and the need to reduce the salary budget most of the season was spent trying to get that done and heavily penalised my ability to trade the way I wanted to because of this. The free budget was never available in season one and in addition, the salary budget precluded the use of it.

In fact if you check I think you will find that the amount I had to reduce my wage budget covered just about the entire "player on loan" list...so how much of a free budget was there really?

I am not blaming you for that...I am just saying that I don't think you have ever really understood the impact that these outside factors had on the season.

However, this discussion was not about how and why Chelsea got relegated but yet again we have the personal slights about me and my poor tactics.

I have been supportive of every step of this new process and see it as a huge step forward and yet when I ask a few questions at this end of things where I might be confused or see possible improvements I feel like I am under attack again.[/quote']

Genuinely wasn't a dig, I was replying in a short space of time, I just mean that I understand you aren't 100% happy but I can't change the whole GW because of slightly differing opinions. Does that make more sense?

Are we ever going to move on from Season 1?

It wasn't a personal slight, the objective reason you were relegated was solely poor tactical choices. I am not saying you are a bad manager this season just gone shows that, but you can't disagree with the fact that had your tactics been different you would have stayed up.

You're not under attack :) everyone wants you here :)

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Re: The Official Financial Fair Play Gameworld Thread

For media predictions (or minimum expected finish), i think the Ben system works better and more realistic than Jared's suggestion. If we look at real life as an example, Chelsea and Manchester City are expected to at least finish 2nd. but if we use Jared system Chelsea(or City) finished 2nd mean they are underachieved when they don't. Arsenal,Liverpool and United are expected to at least finish 4th,so the system need to let several teams have same minimum expected finish and Ben already accomodate it.

Also Jared system means there is huge burden for teams expected to become champions and it can be quite an advantage to teams that's expected to finish quite low

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Re: The Official Financial Fair Play Gameworld Thread

For media predictions (or minimum expected finish)' date=' i think the Ben system works better and more realistic than Jared's suggestion. If we look at real life as an example, Chelsea and Manchester City are expected to at least finish 2nd. but if we use Jared system Chelsea(or City) finished 2nd mean they are underachieved when they don't. Arsenal,Liverpool and United are expected to at least finish 4th,so the system need to let several teams have same minimum expected finish and Ben already accomodate it.

Also Jared system means there is huge burden for teams expected to become champions and it can be quite an advantage to teams that's expected to finish quite low[/quote']

yep agree with all of this

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Re: The Official Financial Fair Play Gameworld Thread

Genuinely wasn't a dig' date=' I was replying in a short space of time, I just mean that I understand you aren't 100% happy but I can't change the whole GW because of slightly differing opinions. Does that make more sense?

Are we ever going to move on from Season 1?

It wasn't a personal slight, the objective reason you were relegated was solely poor tactical choices. I am not saying you are a bad manager this season just gone shows that, but you can't disagree with the fact that had your tactics been different you would have stayed up.

You're not under attack :) everyone wants you here :)[/quote']

Well nearly everyone :P

I'm not sure Bayern should have the wages increased for Gotze's season does it mean that Chelsea receive compensation next season should Matic go to Juve?

Also, great effort doing the rules again mate but please don't see this as an attack but really 5th is a pass mark for Man U based on the quality of the team, transfer kitty and wage budget?

Seriously if a top 3 finish is not achieved then that has to be a poor season.

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Re: The Official Financial Fair Play Gameworld Thread

Well nearly everyone :P

I'm not sure Bayern should have the wages increased for Gotze's season does it mean that Chelsea receive compensation next season should Matic go to Juve?

Also' date=' great effort doing the rules again mate but please don't see this as an attack but really 5th is a pass mark for Man U based on the quality of the team, transfer kitty and wage budget?

[/b']

Seriously if a top 3 finish is not achieved then that has to be a poor season.

I have similar question after checking this again. I've posted this before but United as many as high rated players in their squad,the highest in Division 1 in fact. I know you consider yourself as promoted team so you set the expectation low but the fact that is you shouldn't have started in Division 2

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Re: The Official Financial Fair Play Gameworld Thread

Yup Gozzy thats pretty much my problem. The current expected finish is exceptionally arbitrary and hence what I was trying to propose is a far more objective, stringent and straightforward way to propose expected finish.

You've got the follow expected finishes (Div 1 only, im sure theres similar anomalies in div2):

2nd

Bayern Munich

Real Madrid

4th

Juventus

Arsenal

5th

Manchester United

Manchester City

PSG

6th

Dortmund

Bayern are expected second despite massive squad, budget and wage cuts whilst Real Madrid and Juventus strive past them. United have a 5th place expected despite the third highest wage budget, one of the biggest transfer budgets and a 93.55 starting average squad from last season (taken from Bens stats) which higher than PSG, Juventus, Arsenal, Manchester City and Dortmund. You've also got Juventus, the champions who've been granted massive investment, expecting only a fourth place finish. Surely with all the investment theyd want a top 2/3 place?

I could try propose a transparent objective system that somehow takes into account a few more factors than just wage budget.

Maybe, and Ill just give an example of one club, say Arsenal:

Their wage budget is 5th highest. Their AVG rating from last season (with this season's teams) is 6th and last season's finish (3rd) and we average the three of them we get 4.667. Hence, from this date we get Arsenal having a expected finish of 5th.

PROS: This system is far more transparent. It is also dependent on multiple factors of the club's structure.

CONS: Whilst its still transparent there still a degree subjectivity (I could have picked any 3 factors there just seemed to vary by taking into account a fixed variable (the wage budget), a random variable (the AVG rating for best XI taken from Bens post earlier) and what I guess you could call a dependent variable (last seasons finish)

NOTES: Could still lead to many teams having similar expected finishes. The last season's finish is sort of two fold- teams that underpeform one season get a bit of leeway by having the expected finish lower. This is bad that they almost get rewarded but good in the sense that having another punishment might be very harsh.

Ben will probably come up with a transparent system thats far clearer.

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Re: The Official Financial Fair Play Gameworld Thread

Yup Gozzy thats pretty much my problem. The current expected finish is exceptionally arbitrary and hence what I was trying to propose is a far more objective' date=' stringent and straightforward way to propose expected finish.

You've got the follow expected finishes (Div 1 only, im sure theres similar anomalies in div2):

[b']2nd[/b]

Bayern Munich

Real Madrid

4th

Juventus

Arsenal

5th

Manchester United

Manchester City

PSG

6th

Dortmund

Bayern are expected second despite massive squad, budget and wage cuts whilst Real Madrid and Juventus strive past them. United have a 5th place expected despite the third highest wage budget, one of the biggest transfer budgets and a 93.55 starting average squad from last season (taken from Bens stats) which higher than PSG, Juventus, Arsenal, Manchester City and Dortmund. You've also got Juventus, the champions who've been granted massive investment, expecting only a fourth place finish. Surely with all the investment theyd want a top 2/3 place?

I could try propose a transparent objective system that somehow takes into account a few more factors than just wage budget.

Maybe, and Ill just give an example of one club, say Arsenal:

Their wage budget is 5th highest. Their AVG rating from last season (with this season's teams) is 6th and last season's finish (3rd) and we average the three of them we get 4.667. Hence, from this date we get Arsenal having a expected finish of 5th.

PROS: This system is far more transparent. It is also dependent on multiple factors of the club's structure.

CONS: Whilst its still transparent there still a degree subjectivity (I could have picked any 3 factors there just seemed to vary by taking into account a fixed variable (the wage budget), a random variable (the AVG rating for best XI taken from Bens post earlier) and what I guess you could call a dependent variable (last seasons finish)

NOTES: Could still lead to many teams having similar expected finishes. The last season's finish is sort of two fold- teams that underpeform one season get a bit of leeway by having the expected finish lower. This is bad that they almost get rewarded but good in the sense that having another punishment might be very harsh.

Ben will probably come up with a transparent system thats far clearer.

I agree with this Jared nice work mate ;)

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Re: The Official Financial Fair Play Gameworld Thread

One con I failed to mention is for promoted/relegated teams. Ill propose automatic promoted gets a 'last finish' of 7th and playoff promoted gets a 'last finish' of 8th. Similarly 7th in Div 1 gets a 'last finish' of 1st in Div 2 and 8th in Div 2 gets a 'last finish' of 2nd in Div 2.

If we do all of Div 1:

Club: (Wage Budget) (AVG) (Last Finish) = Average = Expected Finish

Bayern: (4th) (2nd) (4th) = 3.3 = 3rd

Real Madrid (2nd) (1st) (2nd)= 1.7= 2nd

PSG (6th) (4th) (5th) = 5= 5th

Juventus (1st) (5th) (1st)= 2.3= 2nd

Arsenal (5th) (6th) (3rd)= 4.7= 5th

Manchester City (7th) (7th) (6th) = 6.67= 7th

Manchester United (3rd) (3rd) (7th) 4.3= 4th

Dortmund (8th) (8th) (8th)= 8= 8th

The anamolies:

- Manchester City- 7th seems very low for them

- Dortmund- not a statistical anomaly as such but an expected finish of last isnt appetising... though probably a correct estimation of where they will finish.

Theres probably a few mistakes in there but if we look at it presented without the brackets we get:

Bayern 3rd

Real Madrid 2nd

PSG 5th

Juventus 2nd

Arsenal 5th

Manchester City 7th

Manchester United 4th

Dortmund 8th

Personally I think they all, bar Man City, look reasonably accurate.

And Ben if all of this is looking like far too many numbers for you to do each season, Im happy to do this part for you in future seasons, if we agree to this or a variant of this. Of course if, again assuming some form of this is agreed, you want to do it too Im happy that way too.

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Re: The Official Financial Fair Play Gameworld Thread

Yeah i think your latest suggestion are reasonably accurate Jared and it makes something not as arbitrary as it looks right now.

It also reflects the current squad,budget and latest achievement which for me gives right balance to decide the expected finish. I like it

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Re: The Official Financial Fair Play Gameworld Thread

Yeah i think your latest suggestion are reasonably accurate Jared and it makes something not as arbitrary as it looks right now.

It also reflects the current squad' date='budget and latest achievement which for me gives right balance to decide the expected finish. I like it[/quote']

Thanks. Yeah the other reason I picked those factors is because theres a natural mechanism to it. As clubs perform better their wage budget increases through other means and their previous finish is obviously higher so clubs get higher expectations as they continual to perform and grow. Simultaneously a poorly performing club will get smaller and smaller wage budgets and worse finishes meaning, long term, the expectations move in the same direction of the clubs. Also my idea of auto promoted as 7th and playoff promoted as 8th takes into account clubs being promoted but the other two factors assess the club size.

In short it all links together so Im a big fan. Interested to see what others, and especially Ben, thinks.

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Re: The Official Financial Fair Play Gameworld Thread

But in reality Juventus over-achieved last season on one of the lowest wage budgets and 0 transfer budget.

A 4th place finish is the realistic target as on paper and squads there are 2/3 teams who are a lot stronger then Juventus.

I have been rewarded it seems with a nice wage boost and transfer budget but if we don't perform this season then we won't keep them.

However I do expect Bayern and Real to be challenging for the title as on paper they are the better teams, So a 4th place expectancy for Juventus is realistic IMO.

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Re: The Official Financial Fair Play Gameworld Thread

But in reality Juventus over-achieved last season on one of the lowest wage budgets and 0 transfer budget.

A 4th place finish is the realistic target as on paper and squads there are 2/3 teams who are a lot stronger then Juventus.

I have been rewarded it seems with a nice wage boost and transfer budget but if we don't perform this season then we won't keep them.

However I do expect Bayern and Real to be challenging for the title as on paper they are the better teams' date=' So a 4th place expectancy for Juventus is realistic IMO.[/quote']

I feel the flip of the coin is that Juventus' squad should get far better with all the investment and hence with more investment comes higher expectations. Consequently Bayern have performed poorly last season and hence as funding with withdrawn and with that expectations take a slight dip. Also no board really says "yup we won the title but we're happy with midtable next season."

Its obviously not a perfect system and probably some degree of tweaking is needed but I thought, overall, the expected finishes it gave was more what I was expecting in my head.

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Re: The Official Financial Fair Play Gameworld Thread

Will respond better later but like the concept Jared good work!

There are definitely issues with over performance etc.

It isn't perfect but I'm sure I can sort it out and tweak to improve it by introducing more factors.

Shouldn't be too much extra work but this is absolutely the last change to the system or were just making a programme.

Good discussion guys more views appreciated.

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Re: The Official Financial Fair Play Gameworld Thread

As an aside, it possible this rule can be looked at:

Rule 2: The board was disappointed to see Max Meyer leave, given the performance of Gotze the club felt you might have a similar impact on his career even if the fee involved was pleasing.

Despite this the youth players are concerned that they will not get the chances they need and are only at the club for profit. The board know you can develop attacking players but now want to see what you can do with the young defenders. The arrival of Raphael Varane to partner Marquinhos is a positive sign for the future. They wish to see Varane and Marquinhos play in 4 whole games each this season in order to develop and remove any concerns about youth opportunities.

It seems a bit excessive to spend 8 games out of a 14 game season playing a backup defender, especially with the looming threat of Boateng wanting out if things dont improve. My previous rule was Meyer getting 7 sub appearances of 30 minutes. Is it at all possible this rule can focus on one player (like most other clubs that have got these rules) or have a decent reduction in required playing time?

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Re: The Official Financial Fair Play Gameworld Thread

Will respond better later but like the concept Jared good work!

There are definitely issues with over performance etc.

It isn't perfect but I'm sure I can sort it out and tweak to improve it by introducing more factors.

Shouldn't be too much extra work but this is absolutely the last change to the system or were just making a programme.

Good discussion guys more views appreciated.

Thanks. Unlike other things, its one that we've probably got a bit more time to tweak. The amount of 3 factors was a bit arbitrary because I didnt want to overcomplicate it too much, and explained why I went for those three but as I said Im happy to see you tweak it.

And yeah I think everythings been changed a lot and Im happy to see how things go this season and have another big discussion at the end of the season as an evaluation of what worked/what didn't and what went too far/not far enough etc.

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Re: The Official Financial Fair Play Gameworld Thread

It is season three IG' date=' can we start doing business?

And by the way, I like the new rules Ben.

I repeat, I like the new rules Ben.

I'll repeat a third time, I like the new rules Ben.

(And yes, this is me being slightly obnoxious.)[/quote']

I feel under appreciated you only told me 3 times in one post :(

No bidding yet guys want to sort expectations tonight :) and then I will announce when you can.

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Re: The Official Financial Fair Play Gameworld Thread

I disagree. Sure not every team will use the full extent of their wage budget but its' date=' to me, the best measure of a teams capabilites. The wage cap system is simplest way which simultaneously takes into account a team depth and ratings in it. All of the other things will fluctuate through the season and hence are poor measures of a clubs ability to perform. Wage cap is best because its constant and doesnt change with player sales. Its too big a punishment to say, for example that Chelsea should finish X because of their squad ratings and depth but have this taking into account and hence get additional punishment. Hence, I feel that wage budgets are the best way to provide an expected finish that is completely logical and objective. Theres no scope for movement in it. This system also gives each team a separate 1st-8th finish which I think is essential. The current system of expected finish is far too arbitrary for my liking. It sort of undoes all the work we've done to have such a key feature be decided arbitrarily.

And the idea of medias prediction was just a term I was using I was not actually it would be one. It just seems best to have a completely transparent system where teams are all given a 1st-8th through a mechanism that wont change for the season.

Im very happy for Juventus to get Matic as their preference but it should be an in budget purchase.

With the new system I definitely think meeting targets should have a wage reward (as discussed) and if possible put into the rules this season.

Id personally love a 30k increase so I have an overall 100k cut rather than 130k cut I currently have (which will see a lot of "dead cash", as in sales going to get me underbudget but because of wage restrictions wont be used at all on other players. 19mil Firmino release, 26mil for Isco and probably a lot of my 19mil budget will mostly likely all be mainly "dead cash" so Im not sure how much more we want.

That said it should be my decision as Im unable to be completely objective on this decision. This is one others should decide.[/quote']

I really don't think it's the best measure of a teams capabilities because then Juve shouldn't have been anywhere near the title and Barcelona and Bayern should have walked the league?

Your own experience proves this statements false.

If you want to use a system use the 'currently used budget' system to judge who has the most wages over just wage cap, it's because that's a better indicator at this point of the season where teams should be finishing. It's then up to managers to manage there team better than expected?

The reason I say currently used budgets is because even with a lower budget than last season clubs can use that money from sales to bring in top quality in place of depth and make a smaller better squad. For example Bayern will have 21m + 26 + 19 = 66M which should buy them a star player to make the first team even better (as they are only losing squaddies).

Also don't like the 1-8 as it's not realisitc, many teams are competing for the same thing just as in real life.

For media predictions (or minimum expected finish)' date=' i think the Ben system works better and more realistic than Jared's suggestion. If we look at real life as an example, Chelsea and Manchester City are expected to at least finish 2nd. but if we use Jared system Chelsea(or City) finished 2nd mean they are underachieved when they don't. Arsenal,Liverpool and United are expected to at least finish 4th,so the system need to let several teams have same minimum expected finish and Ben already accomodate it.

Also Jared system means there is huge burden for teams expected to become champions and it can be quite an advantage to teams that's expected to finish quite low[/quote']

I agree my system is better than the first suggestion, I probably just need to tweak one or two positions.

By the way' date='who is that new Athletic manager?[/quote']

Raahizar, he's been really, really, really pro active in trying to contact me about vacancies and I've heard off Fluffy (Elohim) that he's a decent guy and is eager to do well on the forum and get to know people too. He seems really nice so all of you be welcoming to him! :P

Well nearly everyone :P

I'm not sure Bayern should have the wages increased for Gotze's season does it mean that Chelsea receive compensation next season should Matic go to Juve?

Also' date=' great effort doing the rules again mate but please don't see this as an attack but really 5th is a pass mark for Man U based on the quality of the team, transfer kitty and wage budget?

Seriously if a top 3 finish is not achieved then that has to be a poor season.[/quote']

It is a minimum expectation based on them being promoted. Very few teams are expected to do more in the first season, I completely agree though that Season 4 (if United are still in the Division) that top 4 is a minimum target.

RE: Bayern I only consider it because the system has punished them awkwardly and it perhaps makes sense for them to be on 1,400,000 more than 1,370,000?

It was an underperformance no question as they should have been top 2, but it wasn't a complete catastrophe like Barcelona.

Also Juventus will overtake United on ratings due to their budget. They already have a larger base of 90+ players and are only 1.37 ratings behind the AVG of United (93.55 compated to 92.18). I'd expect Iniesta to head their way bumping that up to 92.64 in one go, plus Matic = 92.73. Do you see how quickly United will be caught up and that's just in BEST XI. United won't catch any club on 90+ squad players because the budget won't allow it, to add more they have to sell as Eriksen takes 26/36 leaving 10m so United must sell to buy anyone else of worth. Do you see?

I have similar question after checking this again. I've posted this before but United as many as high rated players in their squad' date='the highest in Division 1 in fact. I know you consider yourself as promoted team so you set the expectation low but the fact that is you shouldn't have started in Division 2[/quote']

Not true, we do not have the highest in Division 1 in fact to make such a claim is bizarre and way, way off the mark as United have absolutely no part of the entire club where they are the best in Game, other than of course their manager ;).

United have 16 90+ players

PSG have 19

Juventus have 18

Arsenal have 18

Bayern have 17

Real also have 16

and City have 16

The only club United has more than is Dortmund on 14. Manchester United are joint 5th in 90+ squad members

Even in terms of quality Bayern Munich have 94.09 best XI and Real Madrid 94.36 as best XI even Division 2 club Barcelona has higher 93.91 compared to 93.55.

Manchester United are 3rd in Division 1 for BEST XI but 4th in the GW behind Division 2 Barcelona.

Also important to note is if you look United have barely any players (24) whose total worth comes in at 296.4m

Total worth at other clubs in the Division includes

Borussia 275.4 (35 players)

Real Madrid 383.5 (29 players)

Man City 278.2 (29 players)

Arsenal 267.6 (25 players)

Bayern Munich 432 (35 players)

Juventus 272.2 (33 players)

PSG 282 (30 players)

I mention number of players because they are sellable assets the more you have the more you can make use of the squad value, United can only sell 3 players before being forced to invest, limiting their ability to use squad money. In fact United have the smallest squad in the whole of Division 1 and the cash won't improve this significantly I can assure you.

Real Madrid and Bayern have a huge advantage here over every club in Division 1 with absolutely huge squad values and enough players to be able to sell on a few to buy in better quality.

The squad value gap between United and PSG is only £14.4m worth of players

The gap between United and Real Madrid is £87.1m worth of players that's 6.05X Bigger!

And between United and Bayern Munich? £135.6m worth of players difference which is a staggering 9.42X Bigger than the gap between United and PSG

No club comes close to competing with those kinds of numbers even with wage budgets factored in the overall club values are...

United 332.4

Dortmund 298.4

Real Madrid 418.5

City 280.2

Arsenal 297.6

Bayern Munich 451

Juventus 320.2

PSG 305

Essentially in no way does United have anywhere near the best squad or potential to be the best squad, right now Division 1 is completely dominated by Real Madrid and Bayern in terms of club value, rating and depth everything!

No other club, including United, comes close.

I do regret putting United in Division 2 now to be honest, I think I was a bit miffed at their season in real life so felt they should be in the bottom Division but it's just made things harder really, it's been inconvenient. I do think after this season the whole GW will balance out though (as long as Barcelona go up too!).

But to suggest United have the best anything (again other than manager ;) ) is completely ignoring every single piece of evidence to suggest otherwise, it's not an opinion its just untrue.

Yup Gozzy thats pretty much my problem. The current expected finish is exceptionally arbitrary and hence what I was trying to propose is a far more objective' date=' stringent and straightforward way to propose expected finish.

You've got the follow expected finishes (Div 1 only, im sure theres similar anomalies in div2):

[b']2nd[/b]

Bayern Munich

Real Madrid

4th

Juventus

Arsenal

5th

Manchester United

Manchester City

PSG

6th

Dortmund

Bayern are expected second despite massive squad, budget and wage cuts whilst Real Madrid and Juventus strive past them. United have a 5th place expected despite the third highest wage budget, one of the biggest transfer budgets and a 93.55 starting average squad from last season (taken from Bens stats) which higher than PSG, Juventus, Arsenal, Manchester City and Dortmund. You've also got Juventus, the champions who've been granted massive investment, expecting only a fourth place finish. Surely with all the investment theyd want a top 2/3 place?

I could try propose a transparent objective system that somehow takes into account a few more factors than just wage budget.

Maybe, and Ill just give an example of one club, say Arsenal:

Their wage budget is 5th highest. Their AVG rating from last season (with this season's teams) is 6th and last season's finish (3rd) and we average the three of them we get 4.667. Hence, from this date we get Arsenal having a expected finish of 5th.

PROS: This system is far more transparent. It is also dependent on multiple factors of the club's structure.

CONS: Whilst its still transparent there still a degree subjectivity (I could have picked any 3 factors there just seemed to vary by taking into account a fixed variable (the wage budget), a random variable (the AVG rating for best XI taken from Bens post earlier) and what I guess you could call a dependent variable (last seasons finish)

NOTES: Could still lead to many teams having similar expected finishes. The last season's finish is sort of two fold- teams that underpeform one season get a bit of leeway by having the expected finish lower. This is bad that they almost get rewarded but good in the sense that having another punishment might be very harsh.

Ben will probably come up with a transparent system thats far clearer.

If you look above you will see that actual club size Bayern Munich is massively ahead of everyone including Real Madrid so in that case would be predicted 1st with Real Madrid comfortable 2nd.

After that the gaps become so close, that one good transfer could change the whole dynamic of the grouping so it's impossible to place anyone in third though 4th is arguably between Juventus, United, PSG and Arsenal but that just makes things awkward 4 gunning for one place? So if you are to fairly split it you'd expect the two better performers Juventus and Arsenal (1st and 3rd) to occupy 4th minimum with PSG and newly promoted United aiming for minimum of 5th potentially with City. Dortmund would of course be aiming for 6th.

The bold bit is hardly much of a disadvantage when viewing squad values, you'll get more money than the basic value of players, which will allow you to purchase top players so I don't think you can paint yourself as underdogs with the squad you have.

And for the final time wage budgets dont always get used and I 100% promise you mine wont be because it is impossible even with all my cash to get up to that limit! I cannot do it! :) I have to sell to buy players which reduces the budget I'll be lucky to get near 1,300,000 let alone more wheras you will always be operating and maxing out you budget, making money as you go to bring in top quality, you're actually in a far stronger position than I wanted you to know but I'm being honest, you will have so much cash from sales people would be mad to turn you down.

Fortunately I have a solution to expected finishes.

One con I failed to mention is for promoted/relegated teams. Ill propose automatic promoted gets a 'last finish' of 7th and playoff promoted gets a 'last finish' of 8th. Similarly 7th in Div 1 gets a 'last finish' of 1st in Div 2 and 8th in Div 2 gets a 'last finish' of 2nd in Div 2.

If we do all of Div 1:

Club: (Wage Budget) (AVG) (Last Finish) = Average = Expected Finish

Bayern: (4th) (2nd) (4th) = 3.3 = 3rd

Real Madrid (2nd) (1st) (2nd)= 1.7= 2nd

PSG (6th) (4th) (5th) = 5= 5th

Juventus (1st) (5th) (1st)= 2.3= 2nd

Arsenal (5th) (6th) (3rd)= 4.7= 5th

Manchester City (7th) (7th) (6th) = 6.67= 7th

Manchester United (3rd) (3rd) (7th) 4.3= 4th

Dortmund (8th) (8th) (8th)= 8= 8th

The anamolies:

- Manchester City- 7th seems very low for them

- Dortmund- not a statistical anomaly as such but an expected finish of last isnt appetising... though probably a correct estimation of where they will finish.

Theres probably a few mistakes in there but if we look at it presented without the brackets we get:

Bayern 3rd

Real Madrid 2nd

PSG 5th

Juventus 2nd

Arsenal 5th

Manchester City 7th

Manchester United 4th

Dortmund 8th

Personally I think they all' date=' bar Man City, look reasonably accurate.

And Ben if all of this is looking like far too many numbers for you to do each season, Im happy to do this part for you in future seasons, if we agree to this or a variant of this. Of course if, again assuming some form of this is agreed, you want to do it too Im happy that way too.[/quote']

The reason I disagree is because your system doesn't factor in the massive budget you will gain from player sales etc.

Squad Value has to be a factor in finishing position as it means you have more ability to spend big money etc. I will show you my system soon.

I feel the flip of the coin is that Juventus' squad should get far better with all the investment and hence with more investment comes higher expectations. Consequently Bayern have performed poorly last season and hence as funding with withdrawn and with that expectations take a slight dip. Also no board really says "yup we won the title but we're happy with midtable next season."

Its obviously not a perfect system and probably some degree of tweaking is needed but I thought' date=' overall, the expected finishes it gave was more what I was expecting in my head.[/quote']

Definitely will get better so perhaps 3rd place might be better, but 2nd, no. They are, as you can see, acres behind Bayern and Madrid, everyone is.

As an aside' date=' it possible this rule can be looked at:

It seems a bit excessive to spend 8 games out of a 14 game season playing a backup defender, especially with the looming threat of Boateng wanting out if things dont improve. My previous rule was Meyer getting 7 sub appearances of 30 minutes. Is it at all possible this rule can focus on one player (like most other clubs that have got these rules) or have a decent reduction in required playing time?[/quote']

Januzaj had to play 5 times (3 starts) and he was an 87 replacing a 96

(9 ratings lower).

You will have 8 games where a 93 is replaced by a 90 (3 ratings lower). I personally don't think this is too harsh to expect this, but I will let others decide

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Re: The Official Financial Fair Play Gameworld Thread

Raahizar' date=' he's been really, really, really pro active in trying to contact me about vacancies and I've heard off Fluffy (Elohim) that he's a decent guy and is eager to do well on the forum and get to know people too. He seems really nice so all of you be welcoming to him! :P[/quote']

I must thank You and Elohim for these kind words because that's new to me :P

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Re: The Official Financial Fair Play Gameworld Thread

Ok so using the basis of Jared's system I have improved it to show what the Minimum Acceptable Finish is for each club statistically.

It is based on an average of the following 6 factors which rank clubs 1-8:

Previous Finish

Best XI Quality

Team Depth 90+

Used Wage Budget

Total Club Worth (Players + Starting Budget)

Number of Players

Previous Finish

Previous Finish looks at where the club finished last season.

It ranks 1-8 which = the points you are awarded

Division 1

  1. Juventus = 1
  2. Real Madrid = 2
  3. Arsenal = 3
  4. Bayern Munich = 4
  5. PSG = 5
  6. Manchester City = 6
  7. Manchester United = 7
  8. Borussia Dortmund = 8

Division 2

  1. Everton = 1
  2. Barcelona and Chelsea = 2
  3. Liverpool = 4
  4. Atletico Madrid = 5
  5. Tottenham = 6
  6. AS Roma = 7
  7. Athletic Club = 8

Best XI Quality

Best XI Quality Ranks Teams Based on their start of season best possible XI players. This gives an idea of starting brute strength of clubs.

It ranks 1-8 based on AVG rating for the top XI players.

Division 1

  1. Real Madrid 94.36 = 1
  2. Bayern Munich 94.09 = 2
  3. Manchester United 93.55 = 3
  4. PSG 92.27 = 4
  5. Juventus and Arsenal 92.18 = 5
  6. Manchester City 92 = 7
  7. Borussia Dortmund 91.64 = 8

Division 2

  1. Barcelona 93.91 = 1
  2. Chelsea 92 = 2
  3. Tottenham 91.72 = 3
  4. Atletico Madrid 91.63 = 4
  5. Everton 90.81 = 5
  6. Athletic Club 90.64 = 6
  7. Liverpool 90.36 = 7
  8. AS Roma 90 = 8

Team Depth 90+

The Team Depth 90+ looks at how many 90+ rated players are at the club, the higher the number, the more likely the club is to have quality replacements to deal with injuries, suspensions etc that come from a season and thus the more successful they should be.

Scale 1-8

Division 1

  1. PSG 19 = 1
  2. Juventus and Arsenal 18 = 2
  3. Bayern Munich 17 = 4
  4. Manchester United, Manchester City and Real Madrid 16 = 5
  5. Borussia Dortmund 14 = 8

Division 2

  1. Atletico Madrid 16 = 1
  2. Barcelona, Tottenham and Chelsea 15 = 2
  3. Everton and Liverpool 12 = 5
  4. Athletic Club 10 = 7
  5. AS Roma 8 = 8

Used Wage Budget

The current used wage budget gives an accurate start of season idea of the true starting size of the clubs wages in relation to others. It takes into account underperformance (basing on used budgets last season). It also considers that wage budgets are not always filled to maximum which would affect GW standing.

Division 1

  1. Bayern Munich £1,483,900 = 1
  2. Real Madrid £1,395,600 = 2
  3. PSG £1,236,585 = 3
  4. Manchester United £1,212,210 = 4
  5. Juventus £1,190,000 = 5
  6. Arsenal £1,125,525= 6
  7. Borussia Dortmund £1,087,765 = 7
  8. Manchester City £1,079,190= 8

Division 2

  1. Barcelona £1,483,900 = 1
  2. Chelsea £1,244,480 = 2
  3. Liverpool £1,174,140= 3
  4. Everton £1,063,475 = 4
  5. Tottenham £997,170 = 5
  6. Atletico Madrid £967,750 = 6
  7. Athletic Club £893,715 = 7
  8. AS Roma £880,425= 8

Total Club Worth

Total Club Worth show an indication of the clubs true size taking into account Squad Value (Assets in £) and Season Transfer Budget (Cash in £) to get a total club value of club assets (players) and cash assets (transfer budget).

Scale 1-8

Division 1

  1. Bayern Munich 451 = 1
  2. Real Madrid 418 = 2
  3. Manchester United 332 = 3
  4. Juventus 320 = 4
  5. PSG 305 = 5
  6. Arsenal 298 (rounded but higher) = 6
  7. Dortmund 298 = 7
  8. Manchester City 280 = 8

Division 2

  1. Barcelona 373 = 1
  2. Chelsea 350= 2
  3. Liverpool 311 = 3
  4. Everton 249 = 4
  5. Tottenham 244 = 5
  6. Atletico Madrid 240 = 6
  7. AS Roma 230 = 7
  8. Atheltic Club 192 = 8

Number of Players

The number of players at the club represents the number of available assets to sell to invest in improved assets. It indicates how much of the total club value the club can potentially access at the start of the season, before falling below 21 player limits. E.g bigger squad = ability to sell more = ability to access more club value = bigger budget = better players to buy with cash

Scale = 1-8

Division 1

  1. Bayern Munich and Dortmund 35 = 1
  2. Juventus 33 = 3
  3. PSG 30 = 4
  4. Real Madrid and Manchester City 29 = 5
  5. Arsenal 25 = 7
  6. Manchester United 24 = 8

Division 2

  1. Liverpool 47 = 1
  2. Chelsea 41 = 2
  3. Barcelona 40 = 3
  4. Everton 39 = 4
  5. AS Roma 32 = 5
  6. Athletic Club 31 = 6
  7. Tottenham 29 = 7
  8. Atletico Madrid 22 = 8

Minimum Acceptable Finish

After adding all values for each club up they are then divided by 6 (for each category used) to determine a clubs average position within their respective league and thus determine the Minimum Acceptable Finish statistically speaking.

Division 1

Bayern Munich 13/6 = 2.166 = 2

Real Madrid 17/6 = 2.833 = 3

Juventus 20/6 = 3.333 = 3

PSG 22/6 = 3.666 = 4

Manchester United 30/6 = 5 = 5

Arsenal 30/6 = 5 = 5

Dortmund 38/6 = 6.333 = 6

Manchester City 39/6 = 6.5 = 7

Division 2

Barcelona = 10/6 = 1.666 = 2

Chelsea = 12/6 = 2 = 2

Everton = 23/6 = 3.833 = 4

Liverpool = 23/6 = 3.833 = 4

Tottenham 28/6 = 4.666 = 5

Atletico Madrid 30/6 = 5 = 5

Athletic Club 42/6 = 7 = 7

AS Roma 43/6 = 7.166 = 7

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