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Re: Official Newcastle Utd thread

If you had read the post properly' date=' you would've got that I said that the stats don't back you up at all. Coloccini's ability in the air isn't being argued, just that it hasn't been as big a problem as you claim, and that Coloccini isn't the main reason for Newcastle conceding headed goals, like you originally claimed.[/quote']

If you had read the earlier posts better you would realize that Coloccini's ability in air was being argued, more than anything. Here:

me:

He [sideshow] is close to pathetically bad in air game.

Dudeskin:

I've watched him he plays fine in the air and doesn't seem to be drastically struggling like you say.

Further on, what I said was proved by the stats was exactly this:

A fast check on stats speaks for my side, for sure: according to whoscored.com, he has won precisely 6 aerial duels in his last 10 matches, which is shocking low for a CB. Of course, he avoids getting into them, he is not the one who marks opponent's big guy, but this does not mean that he is not bad in this area, very oppositely, it precisely signals his weakness in this area and proves that Newcastle has to have someone else to mark the target player and automatically is one man down in the air battles.

So the subject was precisely that Colo stinks in air game.

Point being strong in the air weren't exactly the strengths of Puyol and Cannavaro.

:eek::confused:

I don't know which football you are watching. Cannavaro was not particularly tall, nor is Puyol,, but they are strong, jump high, and have a good timing, and excel in the air game. Puyol is one of main aerial threats in indirect set pieces in both club and NT. So was Cannavaro. No forward has ever been able to bully either of them.

Relative ability aside, they're both world class defenders, but wouldn't have been as effective if they didn't have a dominator in the air like Piqué or Nesta alongside them. Same goes for Newcastle and Coloccini, they get the best out of him by playing him with Taylor or Williamson. No idea where you get the idea that Newcastle seriously needs better defenders from, until Taylor's injury the success was built around a solid defense and getting the ball up to Ba. The problem is that Williamson is nowhere near as good as Taylor. We do need a first-choice RB (or LB to allow Santon to play at RB), but only a back-up CB, or a long-term replacement for Coloccini. I'd be confident enough with Taylor and Coloccini as a defensive pairing.

And you can be, as long as you hide in your side of the field and have Cabaye-Tioté fit. If not, you're screwed. It is hard to grasp for some fans, but actually you need good attacking players to play strong defensive game, while in order to play strong attacking game you need also strong defenders (otherwise you will have problems in starting the attacks and especially will concede lots of goals). Your reasonably strong defence record (let's be honest, it is not amazing, although you can explain some of the flaws with absence of key players) has very little to do with the individual ability of your defenders, it is more a midfield effort that makes it.

Completely outplayed in every aspect. Would like to think their dominance in midfield was more the reason why we lost rather than Adebayor, although he was their main man. He might've bullied our defense, only 1 goal came from a header, and that was the last, Saha "beating" Simpson in the air (he didn't really challenge), Adebayor finishing the knock down. Their target man might've been involved, but it wasn't because of Newcastle's weakness in the air.

As I already said before (in fact before the match, you can check it here probably in this thread, maybe the Spurs one), you had no chance without your DM-duo, but nevertheless, you were largely outplayed in air game and that was very clearly a way in which Spurs beat you.

"One of the main reasons why Newcastle conceded so much from set pieces in early season, and why Newcastle has problems against teams like Stoke." That's taken from your first point about Coloccini. If you're not now claiming that he's one of the main reasons why Newcastle conceded so much from set pieces, what did you exactly mean by that?

I am claiming that and nothing in what you just quoted makes me not-claiming it. It really does not advance the discourse that you do not read the argument before responding to it. If you actually did take your time reading it, I recommend you go learn to read before continuing debate. I explained this well enough for anybody who can read English to understand. Not saying that football fans were licit, though, but I expect people I discuss with to be.

I'm pleased you contradicted yourself regarding Ashley Williams. Using the Who Scored? article to back up your point statistically, Williams is one of 2 defenders listed worse than Coloccini, yet now you say he's not as bad as Coloccini. It's pointless arguing if you're going to use stats to back up your argument against Coloccini, then say the same stats don't prove that Williams is worse than him.

That was a stat in February, and very closely the same rate for both, with Williams having higher absolute number of aerials won. Since then, he has actually been quite good in that part of the game, just by stats (for example, 6/7 won against Norwich, 2/4 won against Stoke, 4/5 won against City, in all matches he was their main defender taking the aerial duels, unlike Colo in any match). Meanwhile, Colo has only been worse than before. So, by stats, Williams is not as bad as Colo. Don't get too stuck with one statistic from one time - that is the way in which you can flaw your arguments from stats, as you just did. In fact, by those later stats Williams is not bad in air game at all. He is one player I have not watched much at all, so not claiming anything specific about him, only that by his stats, he is nowhere near as bad in air game as Colo.

It's been mentioned before, using stats to back up an argument, especially in football, is always flawed. There are so many things that they can't say, and why it's got to be a perspective judgement. I think bigpig's got it right in his above posts.

You think, but where are demonstrations or arguments for the point? Statistics very efficiently tell us about tendencies of events, and saying that they are in themselves flawed is just to stating that you rather believe in hunch and superstition and never mind any analytical or scientific argumentation, in which case stop claiming something to be flaw, because there are only flaws when we are trying to prove something objectively. your opinion can be anything but I have no idea why anybody would be interested in it. Stats in themselves, if correctly collected do not bring any flaws with them. It is what you claim by the stats that may bring it. But each of my claims has been bloody obvious and would ask for a serious challenging of the stats themselves. As long as the given stats are accepted to be valid to a sufficient extent, there is thus far no argument against my claims (1. Colo sucks in air game; 2. without claiming that to be the best Cb one should be the best in the air, surely we can say that a top defender who dominates the air is better than a defender dominated in the air, thus this weakness making him a worse defender than Kompany and Koscielny who aside from other things dominate air game; 3. having their best CB clearly dominated in air gives a disadvantage to Newcastle that tends to lose the air battle in their own end; 4. losing air battle in your own end leads losing possession, which is apparent in Newcastle's matches; 5. small quantity of players that are strong in the air leads to more set pieces goals and header goals conceded, which is the case of Newcastle as well; 6. having a CB who is absolutely woeful in the air causes that in order to avoid the point 5, you have to compensate his weakness heavily with other players, which is hardly done in Newcastle so far, and they need to either get other players who can dominate the air or eventually to replace Coloccini to get rid of this weakness).

You're not exactly helping yourself with that attitude. I'm more than willing to debate points with you, always enjoyed our discussions in the Ligue 1 thread in the past, but please leave the insults out of it.

I do not enjoy discussing with people who are unable to make this easy reasoning (not to mention to read the points well enough to actually answer to them): in fact, it is frustrating, hence the well deserved insults.

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Re: Official Newcastle Utd thread

That's why I never pay attention to stats. They only tell 1/8 of the story.

And what calculation lead you to that precise number? Would you like to prove that somehow? I wait for it, but until then, your first phrase is nothing but a confession of deliberate ignorance.

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Re: Official Newcastle Utd thread

And what calculation lead you to that precise number? Would you like to prove that somehow? I wait for it' date=' but until then, your first phrase is nothing but a confession of deliberate ignorance.[/quote']

deliberate ignorance? Where did I once say sideshow was good in the air?

Never mind

Last reply on the matter if you go by stats Danny Simpson is in fact the best Right back in the country and rated 21st on the player index for the Prem league out of all players.

Don't think you get many Newcastle fans saying that in real world.

your the one that came in here throwing insults in a Newcastle thread...

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Re: Official Newcastle Utd thread

Santon in at LB!! Jonas into the midfield three. Good-oh!

Quite suprised to see Sinclair on the bench for Swansea. Testiment to how well Routledge is playing for them really. Moore instead of Graham too. A little bit of a shock.

COME ON!

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Re: Official Newcastle Utd thread

Santon in at LB!! Jonas into the midfield three. Good-oh!

Quite suprised to see Sinclair on the bench for Swansea. Testiment to how well Routledge is playing for them really. Moore instead of Graham too. A little bit of a shock.

COME ON!

Was happy to see that tbh.

I expect Jonas to be doing a lot of leg work of front of Santon.

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Re: Official Newcastle Utd thread

I do not enjoy discussing with people who are unable to make this easy reasoning (not to mention to read the points well enough to actually answer to them): in fact' date=' it is frustrating, hence the well deserved insults.[/quote']

I'm not interested in debating things with people who can't make a point without resorting to insulting anyone who doesn't agree.

Amazing 8 in 8 now for Papiss. Saw an interesting point before the game that he's had a better start to his Newcastle career than both Shearer and Cole, equalled Ferdinand's 7 in 7.

Tim Krul's looking on form today. At this rate he may end up being better than Given was at his best, if he isn't at that level already.

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Re: Official Newcastle Utd thread

All the admiration for the way Swansea play. I find it befuddling. Granted, they press the ball well in the opponets half usually resulting in a long ball being played to their back four and they just keep the ball in their own half. There's being patient, and then there's just being plain boring! Ah well. They are going to have to attack us a little in the second half and hopefully we''l get to have the ball then. If I was Newcastle, I'd spit the dummy out and demand we have some of the ball. :P

I can understand how Britton has the 'highest pas success rate' in the league. He's worse than Carrick! I could get those stats from pasing at most, 5 yards right, left or backwards.

Its not a very entertaining game, it is interesting though. If Newcastle weren't involved I would have turned off by now though.

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