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Re: Spain Vs England

I felt just like you lot before' date=' but tbh, look around. Almost every country has at least one player who's not from that nationality.

At the Olympics we had Jamaicans fcs.

What's the difference? I would happily see Cudicini, Arteta or even Almunia play in an England shirt.

Stop living in the past.

And what's the difference between Hargreaves playing for England or Arteta playing for England?

Hargreaves was born in Canada but has lived for England long enough to be a citizen. Arteta is the same, be it slightly older.

I have a friend who moved to England from Zimbabwe when he was younger - say he was good enough to play for England, should he not be allowed?[/quote']

Really? You would like to see Arteta in an England shirt.. Defeats the object of ENGLAND, he is not ENGLISH. Hargreaves fair enough, but Arteta who is SPANISH, he should NOT play for England. The day Arteta wears an English shirt, or any other non English player for that matter is the day i give up hope on England FC.

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Re: Spain Vs England

I am probs wrong but isn't raceism also like saying you hate the Spanish or something:confused: :confused:

I think it is up to them who they want to play for

Sorry, but could you point out where one of us said anything racist because its not nice calling someone a racist when they aren't. I'm not a racist and I'm sure none of the others are. The point that I'm making is that people should only be allowed to play for their own country, there is nothing racist in saying that mate :)

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Re: Spain Vs England

Really???Kinda weird that Man U declered their intrest after the world cup then isn't it

ah yes' date=' fergie and his tapping up...

seriously though, english clubs have been interested in him since the beginning of the decade, not just man united. and he's played in something like 30 games since becoming a man united player so there's no way you can justify him being the player who he is because of man united

If you are born and bred in Spain, you are Spanish. I could go and live in Italy for a few years and get a citizenship, i am not Italian.....

you'd be an italian citizen and thus you'd have the same right to represent your new country as a person born and bred there

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Re: Spain Vs England

Personally I'd love to see Arteta in and England shirt. If he says 'Pick me', that alone suggests he is passionate enough for it. I also think he would be a good addition to the team, which for me is the most important thing.

so the 2 questions we should ask ourselves is:

1. Does he want to play for England?

2. Are they good enough to get picked and have an impact on the team?

If both answers are 'Yes' then why not?

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Re: Spain Vs England

Personally I'd love to see Arteta in and England shirt. If he says 'Pick me'' date=' that alone suggests he is passionate enough for it. I also think he would be a good addition to the team, which for me is the most important thing.

so the 2 questions we should ask ourselves is:

1. Does he want to play for England?

2. Are they good enough to get picked and have an impact on the team?

If both answers are 'Yes' then why not?[/quote']

If he got picked to play for Spain he would play, he would choose to play for us meerly because he knows he isnt good enough for the Spanish team.

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Re: Spain Vs England

ah yes' date=' fergie and his tapping up...

seriously though, english clubs have been interested in him since the beginning of the decade, not just man united. and he's played in something like 30 games since becoming a man united player so there's no way you can justify him being the player who he is because of man united

you'd be an italian citizen and thus you'd have the same right to represent your new country as a person born and bred there[/quote']

I might have, but its not right is it? A load of balls really. Should never happen, will spoil the International game.

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Re: Spain Vs England

If he got picked to play for Spain he would play' date=' he would choose to play for us meerly because he knows he isnt good enough for the Spanish team.[/quote']

Maybe so, but you could say the same about Eduardo. With the amount of top class strikers Brazil have, it is unlikely he would get in their team, possibly not even in the squad, so he decided to represent Croatia after gaining citizenship and he is more appreciated by the Croats, he is the star man. If you ask any Croat 'Do you think it is a problem that he plays for your national side because he has no Croat blood in him whatsoever?' they would say no because he shows passion for the cause just like any one born and bred in Croatia, and he is good enough to have a positive impact on the team.

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Re: Spain Vs England

Really? You would like to see Arteta in an England shirt.. Defeats the object of ENGLAND' date=' he is not ENGLISH. Hargreaves fair enough, but Arteta who is SPANISH, he should NOT play for England. The day Arteta wears an English shirt, or any other non English player for that matter is the day i give up hope on England FC.[/quote']

Live in the real world mate. England are the only country who don't have non-English born player (bar Hargreaves) in the team.

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Re: Spain Vs England

Maybe so' date=' but you could say the same about Eduardo. With the amount of top class strikers Brazil have, it is unlikely he would get in their team, possibly not even in the squad, so he decided to represent Croatia after gaining citizenship and he is more appreciated by the Croats, he is the star man. If you ask any Croat 'Do you think it is a problem that he plays for your national side because he has no Croat blood in him whatsoever?' they would say no because he shows passion for the cause just like any one born and bred in Croatia, and he is good enough to have a positive impact on the team.[/quote']

Well, we'll see if Arteta shows the same passion, it cant be any less than the real English players we already have..

Even though i think it will be highly unlickley for Arteta to play for us.

Still think its not r8 though.

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Re: Spain Vs England

I might have' date=' but its not right is it? A load of balls really. Should never happen, will spoil the International game.[/quote']

it may or may not be right, but its already happen in spain/germany/france, and that doesnt seem to have spoilt the game, and i doubt it'd hurt the players legacy (do people look down on di stefano for representing 3 countries?), and as said earlier, it happens a lot in other sports and it doesnt seem to matter - greg rusedki and lennox lewis aren't referred to as canadians are they?

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Re: Spain Vs England

To be quite honest, it is rather ironic that a lot of, if not all, the people slating people like Arteta and Almunia for wanting to play for England are English themselves and without many overseas relatives.

Let's take me for an example. I was born in East London however for some reason I was registered with a Lebanese nationality. It was not until a while later until I was naturalised and became a British citizen (which is similar to how a lot of footballers get citizenship in a certain country). I have been a British citizen for most of my life. Does this mean I am not entitled to play for England?

Another example is Simone Perrotta. He was born in Ashton Under Lyme but moved back to Italy at the age of 5. By the time he turned 18 he would have been granted Italian citizenship, and now he plays for Italy.

A similar situation like me also applies to Mario Balotelli, whose parents are Ugandan but he was born in Palermo and has rejected many call-ups to the Uganda national side because he wants to get Italian citizenship and play for Italy.

Now when you get citizenship from a certain country it comes only after a certain number of years and when you have knowledge of many things such as life, culture, law and history of the country so surely if these people are knowledgable about England and obtain citizenship then they have the same rights as other people with citizenship?

I have also read, that it is impossible for Manuel Almunia or Mikel Arteta to ever play for England, or either for Nacho Novo to play for Scotland because they have no blood tie to their respective countries that they they wish to obtain citiezenship from.

And judging by the rubbish England showed yesterday, I am surprised people are rejecting players of Arteta and Almunia's credentials. Yes, they do not play for Spain but are far better than players like Downing, Wright Phillips and James IMO. And judging by the influx of foreign talent coming into the Premier League I can see people having a change of heart regarding this subject.

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Re: Spain Vs England

It's different though' date=' Hargreaves chose English as his country straight away, he could of played for Canada, England or I think Wales because of his family - he chose England

Arteta and Almunia are different because it's only the fact that they've played here so long without playing for their own country - remember a few years back everyone wanted Cudicini as keeper :rolleyes:[/quote']

That's a pretty weak excuse. If most people were given a choice between Canada and England, they'd pick England, it doesn't make Hargreaves a great patriot. I don't really care that he isn't strictly English, nationality is hard to define anyway, but he arguably more German than English.

If your saying you wont watch England if we get an 'un-English' player, why are you watching after 2 foreign managers? England lost its credibility a long time ago. I bet if a foreigner did play, you'd still be watching. I'm not having a go by the way, it's hard to convey that through text :)

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Re: Spain Vs England

I don't want to argue with anyone. I just want to share my opinions :)

Yes I know Hargreaves has lived in England long enough to be a citizen but IMO he disrespects his country by playing for England because he is not English. Look at it this way' date=' if I was Canadian I would hate Hargreaves (although I already do :P) because every boy including me wants to play for their country and he has a chance in a life time to do so (although I doubt it would be too hard to get on the Canadian team :P) and he decides to play for England instead. If Canada were as good as England and England were as bad as Canada lol :D I bet he would be playing for Canada right now.[/quote']

Lennox Lewis was British but boxed for canada in the olympics (won them a gold as well), yet i dont see many people angrily waving their fists at him....

Admittedly, of all the ppl u'd not want to annoy a world champion heavyweight boxer is pretty high on the list but still :P

Plus people are forgetting the number of english players playing for abroad teams take Kazim - Richards for Turkey. We dont want him but Turkey do so y shldnt he be allowed to get some international caps under his belt??

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Re: Spain Vs England

I felt just like you lot before' date=' but tbh, look around. Almost every country has at least one player who's not from that nationality.

At the Olympics we had Jamaicans fcs.

What's the difference? I would happily see Cudicini, Arteta or even Almunia play in an England shirt.

[b']Stop living in the past[/b].

And what's the difference between Hargreaves playing for England or Arteta playing for England?

Hargreaves was born in Canada but has lived for England long enough to be a citizen. Arteta is the same, be it slightly older.

I have a friend who moved to England from Zimbabwe when he was younger - say he was good enough to play for England, should he not be allowed?

This is the most poignant statement from this thread. Whether you're against it or for it, the change is inevitable. If it's not Arteta or Cudicini, it will be some other player sooner or later. I'll lay my bottom dollar on one of the Arsenal/Man Utd youngsters who are non-English currently going on to represent England in the future. Times are changing and whilst England may see itself as a proud nation it will call-up non-English players whether we like it or not. That is just about a certainty. If it's not sooner, it will be later.

The question of not being passionate enough to not wear the shirt is a valid one. But again if you look at other sports, it's clear that such doubts should be dismissed. In cricket, is there any forumer on here that would argue that non-English Kevin Pietersen is not passionate about donning the England colours. Arguably, in recent times, he's been the most passionate in the side. Mike Catt was pivotal to England's Rugby world cup win in 2003 and was so passionate about representing England that he continued to represent England until the age of 36 (a wrold record I believe). Yet he only came to this country aged 18 from his native South Africa. Greg Rusedski, although not being widely accpeted by the British public, has represented the Davis cup side more often than Henman and Murray did, often putting team glory ahead of individual glory. Never a more passionate man (before someone says it, I know it's GB instead of England in tennis, but the same principle applies).

Numerous other examples are present in other sports. Non-English sportsmen whom many of us have cheered on and revelled in their glory. Whilst it's not yet prevalent in football, I would suggest it's only a matter of time, whether some of us like it or not :)

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Re: Spain Vs England

This is the most poignant statement from this thread. Whether you're against it or for it' date=' the change is inevitable. If it's not Arteta or Cudicini, it will be some other player sooner or later. I'll lay my bottom dollar on one of the Arsenal/Man Utd youngsters who are non-English currently going on to represent Englamd in the future. Times are changing and whilst England may see itself as a proud nation it will call-up non-English players whether we like it or not. That is just about a certainty. If it's not sooner, it will be later.

The question of not being passionate enough to not wear the shirt is a valid one. But again if you look at other sports, it's clear that such doubts should be dismissed. In cricket, is there any forumer on here that would argue that non-English Kevin Pietersen is not passionate about donning the England colours. Arguably, in recent times, he's been the most passionate in the side. Mike Catt was pivotal to England's Rugby world cup win in 2003 and was so passionate about representing England that he continued to represent England until the age of 36 (a wrold record I believe). Yet he only cam to this country aged 18 from his native South Africa. Greg Rusedski, although not being widely accpeted by the British public, has represented the Davis cup side more often than Henman and Murray did, often putting team glory ahead of individual glory. Never a more passionate man (before someone says it, I know it's GB instead of England in tennis, but the same principle applies).

Numerous other examples are present in other sports. Non-English sportsmen whom many of us have cheered on and revelled in their glory. Whilst it's not yet prevalent in football, I would suggest it's only a matter of time, whether some of us like it or not :)[/quote']

What a superb post there Smartdoc! I really really have to agree with your post!:)

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Re: Spain Vs England

This is the most poignant statement from this thread. Whether you're against it or for it' date=' the change is inevitable. If it's not Arteta or Cudicini, it will be some other player sooner or later. I'll lay my bottom dollar on one of the Arsenal/Man Utd youngsters who are non-English currently going on to represent England in the future. Times are changing and whilst England may see itself as a proud nation it will call-up non-English players whether we like it or not. That is just about a certainty. If it's not sooner, it will be later.

The question of not being passionate enough to not wear the shirt is a valid one. But again if you look at other sports, it's clear that such doubts should be dismissed. In cricket, is there any forumer on here that would argue that non-English Kevin Pietersen is not passionate about donning the England colours. Arguably, in recent times, he's been the most passionate in the side. Mike Catt was pivotal to England's Rugby world cup win in 2003 and was so passionate about representing England that he continued to represent England until the age of 36 (a wrold record I believe). Yet he only came to this country aged 18 from his native South Africa. Greg Rusedski, although not being widely accpeted by the British public, has represented the Davis cup side more often than Henman and Murray did, often putting team glory ahead of individual glory. Never a more passionate man (before someone says it, I know it's GB instead of England in tennis, but the same principle applies).

Numerous other examples are present in other sports. Non-English sportsmen whom many of us have cheered on and revelled in their glory. Whilst it's not yet prevalent in football, I would suggest it's only a matter of time, whether some of us like it or not :)[/quote']

Just out of interest, what side of the fence do you sit on? I got the impresssion from your post that weren't too bothered (not to imply you don't care) about the veracity of players Englishness but I thought I'd ask to be sure. A lot of posts foreshadow impending doom like we can't stop this but should we want to? To use the example of Owen Hargreaves again, a lot of people criticised him for not being English when he wasn't popular but after that game against Ecuador, he was praised as the epitome of a Englishman- his dogged tenacity recalling the heroism of people like Churchill :rolleyes: If anything, this shows how fickle and the double standards that England and Britain has diplayed so wonderfully throughout the ages. Owen Hargreaves has lived less of his life in England than Arteta too, so think about that. Is Hargreaves more English by the virtue of his parents? I don't think so, and Canada is arguably more French than English even if it was a dominion.

The English cricket team is a good example too. As you say, Pietersen is South African, Simon Jones is Welsh and Geraint Jones is Welsh/Austalian. But do you remember the joy when we beat Australia? Even non-cricket fans like myself were filled with pride and in no way did anyone denigrate that achievement with questions of the authenticity of players' Englishness.

Anyway, I have no objection to someone not wanting people like Arteta to play for England, people's view on nationality vary (personally I think the more nationalism, be it racist or even just pride based, is broken down the merrier). What I object to is when people spout on about but quickly get over it in the face of success and then just as quickly change back when things are going wrong. I know sports fans are supposed to be fickle but it is ridiculous. Remember Sven? Everyone was flipping out "This appointment is stopping British coaching talent from coming though", "English for England" but lo and behold we thrash Germany and the country falls in love with him, even to the extent of releasing songs like

(which I release was tongue in cheek) just on the basis of one game! Then when things aren't going as well as we'd like, we decide that English must be the way forward again and go for Steve McClaren. Let's just wait for Capello to be sacked (or they'll try and offload him as they wont want to pay the compo or admit they were wrong) because his players are bottlers and we inevitably employ Big Sam :(
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Re: Spain Vs England

Just out of interest' date=' what side of the fence do you sit on? I got the impresssion from your post that weren't too bothered (not to imply you don't care) about the veracity of players Englishness but I thought I'd ask to be sure. A lot of posts foreshadow impending doom like we can't stop this but should we want to? To use the example of Owen Hargreaves again, a lot of people criticised him for not being English when he wasn't popular but after that game against Ecuador, he was praised as the epitome of a Englishman- his dogged tenacity recalling the heroism of people like Churchill :rolleyes: If anything, this shows how fickle and the double standards that England and Britain has diplayed so wonderfully throughout the ages. Owen Hargreaves has lived less of his life in England than Arteta too, so think about that. Is Hargreaves more English by the virtue of his parents? I don't think so, and Canada is arguably more French than English even if it was a dominion.

The English cricket team is a good example too. As you say, Pietersen is South African, [b']Simon Jones[/b] is Welsh and Geraint Jones is Welsh/Austalian. But do you remember the joy when we beat Australia? Even non-cricket fans like myself were filled with pride and in no way did anyone denigrate that achievement with questions of the authenticity of players' Englishness.

Anyway, I have no objection to someone not wanting people like Arteta to play for England, people's view on nationality vary (personally I think the more nationalism, be it racist or even just pride based, is broken down the merrier). What I object to is when people spout on about but quickly get over it in the face of success and then just as quickly change back when things are going wrong. I know sports fans are supposed to be fickle but it is ridiculous. Remember Sven? Everyone was flipping out "This appointment is stopping British coaching talent from coming though", "English for England" but lo and behold we thrash Germany and the country falls in love with him, even to the extent of releasing songs like

(which I release was tongue in cheek) just on the basis of one game! Then when things aren't going as well as we'd like, we decide that English must be the way forward again and go for Steve McClaren. Let's just wait for Capello to be sacked (or they'll try and offload him as they wont want to pay the compo or admit they were wrong) because his players are bottlers and we inevitably employ Big Sam :(
Its an england and Wales cricket team its called England cause theres barely any Welsh players in there.I think Arteta shoud be allowed to play for England as football is a job right?Then why can Gurkahs serve in the army or have a Polish bus driver?

So they should be allowed and if someone says no then shame on you as you can't give people jobs based on their nationality

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Re: Spain Vs England

Its an england and Wales cricket team its called England cause theres barely any Welsh players in there.I think Arteta shoud be allowed to play for England as football is a job right?Then why can Gurkahs serve in the army or have a Polish bus driver?

So they should be allowed and if someone says no then shame on you as you can't give people jobs based on their nationality

That's why these rules that the Premier League want to implement based on homegrown players wont work- they're illegal as they contrevene EU law. Don't get me wrong I would love to see teams full of local lads but that's a whole other debate! :D

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