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Re: Spain Vs England

Just out of interest' date=' what side of the fence do you sit on? I got the impresssion from your post that weren't too bothered (not to imply you don't care) about the veracity of players Englishness but I thought I'd ask to be sure. A lot of posts foreshadow impending doom like we can't stop this but should we want to? To use the example of Owen Hargreaves again, a lot of people criticised him for not being English when he wasn't popular but after that game against Ecuador, he was praised as the epitome of a Englishman- his dogged tenacity recalling the heroism of people like Churchill :rolleyes: If anything, this shows how fickle and the double standards that England and Britain has diplayed so wonderfully throughout the ages. Owen Hargreaves has lived less of his life in England than Arteta too, so think about that. Is Hargreaves more English by the virtue of his parents? I don't think so, and Canada is arguably more French than English even if it was a dominion.

The English cricket team is a good example too. As you say, Pietersen is South African, Simon Jones is Welsh and Geraint Jones is Welsh/Austalian. But do you remember the joy when we beat Australia? Even non-cricket fans like myself were filled with pride and in no way did anyone denigrate that achievement with questions of the authenticity of players' Englishness.

Anyway, I have no objection to someone not wanting people like Arteta to play for England, people's view on nationality vary (personally I think the more nationalism, be it racist or even just pride based, is broken down the merrier). What I object to is when people spout on about but quickly get over it in the face of success and then just as quickly change back when things are going wrong. I know sports fans are supposed to be fickle but it is ridiculous. Remember Sven? Everyone was flipping out "This appointment is stopping British coaching talent from coming though", "English for England" but lo and behold we thrash Germany and the country falls in love with him, even to the extent of releasing songs like

(which I release was tongue in cheek) just on the basis of one game! Then when things aren't going as well as we'd like, we decide that English must be the way forward again and go for Steve McClaren. Let's just wait for Capello to be sacked (or they'll try and offload him as they wont want to pay the compo or admit they were wrong) because his players are bottlers and we inevitably employ Big Sam :(

I think it will always be a divisive issue and you will always have two sides who are adamant and large proportion of members who are in the middle. I'm sure if it (and as I've said I suspect it's a case of when and not if), there will be an outcry from some who would claim they'd rather lose and keep the team English or British, whilst there'll be another proportion of fans who would rather see successful English and British sides.

It could be argued that any non-English player who goes on to represent England in many ways has to prove themselves more prior to selection than an accpeted Englishman. Partly due to the opposition from some, partly due to the management/selection committee fearing the backlash if it goes wrong. They also themselves have to have a good mental strength as the same doubts will cross their minds when they are contemplating what some sections are saying about them and the fact that they will be aware of some of the opposition. This only serves to make them stronger candidates for the role. Your example of Sven is a perfect example of someone who on his appointment had to hear a barrage of comments of the form of "We'd prefer an English manager" or "He won't have the passion or will". His mental strength took him through this period at a time when he also had other self-created distractions (of the female predispostion :P ).

Turn it around and look over all sports and I wonder if anyone can name any foreign Englishmen who have represented England and failed or shown a lack of desire or pride in the shirt/colours. I honestly cannot think of any and that's again perhaps due to them knowing they must succeed or face a backlash. So all in all I have no problems with supposed non-Englishmen representing England if they satisfy the sports qualification criteria. If they've expressed a desire to represent the country, then the desire must be there and if they're selected, I really couldn't see a questioning of the passion. The history books show that foreign Englishmen have always shown at least the same amount of passion as homegrown Englishmen :)

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Re: Spain Vs England

I think it will always be a divisive issue and you will always have two sides who are adamant and large proportion of members who are in the middle. I'm sure if it (and as I've said I suspect it's a case of when and not if)' date=' there will be an outcry from some who would claim they'd rather lose and keep the team English or British, whilst there'll be another proportion of fans who would rather see successful English and British sides.

It could be argued that any [i']non-English [/i] player who goes on to represent England in many ways has to prove themselves more prior to selection than an accpeted Englishman. Partly due to the opposition from some, partly due to the management/selection committee fearing the backlash if it goes wrong. They also themselves have to have a good mental strength as the same doubts will cross their minds when they are contemplating what some sections are saying about them and the fact that they will be aware of some of the opposition. This only serves to make them stronger candidates for the role. Your example of Sven is a perfect example of someone who on his appointment had to hear a barrage of comments of the form of "We'd prefer an English manager" or "He won't have the passion or will". His mental strength took him through this period at a time when he also had other self-created distractions (of the female predispostion :P ).

Turn it around and look over all sports and I wonder if anyone can name any foreign Englishmen who have represented England and failed or shown a lack of desire or pride in the shirt/colours. I honestly cannot think of any and that's again perhaps due to them knowing they must succeed or face a backlash. So all in all I have no problems with supposed non-Englishmen representing England if they satisfy the sports qualification criteria. If they've expressed a desire to represent the country, then the desire must be there and if they're selected, I really couldn't see a questioning of the passion. The history books show that foreign Englishmen have always shown at least the same amount of passion as homegrown Englishmen :)

That's all true, I couldn't have put it better myself. It's interesting that with regards to the 'foreign Englishmen' you mention there, 50 years we would have been debating people like Rio, Ashley Cole, Heskey etc. in that category rather Arteta and Almunia.

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