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Re: Religion (A.K.A. The thread destined to fail.)

Whilst similar, you could argue Faith and Opinion hold different interpretations …eg

I have absolute faith in existence of the almighty

I am of the opinion that the almighty exists.

Surely in those sentences, the word Faith holds greater conviction than opinion??

The logic I was suggesting still stands,

I question the fairness of those who deny faith in god ( by physical means)expecting those who hold that faith to justify it in similar terms, how does the individual prove faith in God ? other than the bible what evidence can he bring forward? what terms can he use to meet the physical criteria that Atheist logic requires?

Maybe I am not being clear, let me ask you, what would it take for you to believe in God ?, what would change your mind?

EDIT: Your point on Burden of proof could surely be extended to the Atheist argument, as in the quote from Philippe, what comparable terms could he use to justify his statement to someone who considers the word to be fact ?

EDIT 2 : The burden of proof (Latin: onus probandi) is the obligation to shift the assumed conclusion away from an oppositional opinion to one's own position. The burden of proof may only be fulfilled by evidence. The burden of proof is often associated with the Latin maxim semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit, the best translation of which seems to be: "the necessity of proof always lies with the person who lays charges." This is a statement of a version of the presumption of innocence which underpins the assessment of evidence in some legal systems, and is not a general statement of when one takes on the burden of proof. The burden of proof tends to lie with anyone who is arguing against received wisdom, but does not always, as sometimes the consequences of accepting a statement or the ease of gathering evidence in its defense might alter the burden of proof its proponents shoulder. The burden may also be assigned institutionally.

He who does not carry the burden of proof carries the benefit of assumption, meaning he needs no evidence to support his claim. Fulfilling the burden of proof effectively captures the benefit of assumption, passing the burden of proof off to another party.

Christianity is a widespread religion with a majority of the population who believe. In fact, it spans into history and culture far and wide, for many centuries. Relative to Christianity, some claim that atheism is a relatively new perspective and philosophy, having fairly recent roots and a minority of believers. The association and affiliation of atheism to science is even newer, as science itself is only several centuries old. From this perspective it stands to reason, that atheism is indeed the accuser against Christianity and therefore suffers the Burden of Proof.

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Please, keep it civil. Mods will probably by flying around this like hawks. This is also a maturity test for the forum. Before I start, know that I am a catholic. Practicing. That in it's own may sur

Re: Religion (A.K.A. The thread destined to fail.) I think your last statement is the best way out. You have no clue as to what we are talking about, next time you go to the library, pick up a Noddy

Re: Religion (A.K.A. The thread destined to fail.) Somewhere in the world a man has abducted a little girl, soon he will rape, torture and kill her. If an atrocity of this kind is not occurring at th

Re: Religion (A.K.A. The thread destined to fail.)

Is there a God? Really?

Look at the success Man United have had in the last two decades and I dare you to tell me there is a God.

There is however, definitely a Devil...actually I do believe it might be Lee Mason :D

I'm not going to wade in on this argument properly, for whilst my spare time is worthless, I'd prefer not to spend long on either side of this kind of debate were no progress is ever made.

I have a feeling that it isn't going to be settled now, on this thread :rolleyes::P

Arguing about religion is just an exercise in futility, but I might as well put forth some views, since this is a hot topic (surprise, surprise ol' Dave Belkevitz has some opinions on religion! :P)...

Just as the religious trying to convert people to their way of thinking through scare tactics and manipulation is abhorrent, so too is the aggressive brand of atheism which seems increasingly popular and takes the form of some sort of inverted proselytism. I've no problem with reasoned sound musing on the inadequacies and illusions of religion, such as the brand for which Belkevitz is so famous :D, but it is extremely grating when people simply decide that since they lack faith or belief, all others should for that reason alone. If people want to be comforted by what I may consider their own delusion, then fine, but I ask that it isn't thrust in my face.

Whilst I can tolerate faith, that is faith in some sort of divining presence, or the belief in intelligent design, I can't understand nor condone the adherence to a set of religious rules. Often people mistake faith for a bad thing, when the truth is that it is at its worst misguided. It is religion that causes rifts, that separates, that forces people to judge one another or to fight one another. How someone can consider the Bible a 'God's word' is beyond me, when it seems so clear that it was created as a means of control, just like the kind of propaganda you'd find in a Communist country (people should realise that Communism is just all old ideas recycled anyway :P). People will follow a religion because they have simply been indoctrinated, brainwashed, from an early age. Whilst I'm fine with people being able to practice whatever faith they should choose in their own privacy, I can't help but feel uncomfortable with the way some people are simply followers of a particular religion because that is all they were told as a child. The vast, vast majority of the religious haven't weighed up all the options and went 'I like the sound of Sikhism' or 'Catholicism, that's the one for me!'.

Similarly, whilst people's own personal faiths mystify me rather than madden, it is the existence of organised religion and its hold over people and meddlesome nature. The treatment of scientists like Galileo is exemplary of why I can't excuse organised religion, with its regressive influence on society.

To sum up (for all those out there is with ADD) my pretty succinct account (so succinct that really it denigrates the gravity of this debate, but you'll have to make do! :P) of just some of my views on a complex (the most complex?) issue:

Faith :) but misguided

Religion :(

Organised religion :mad:

That's right, I really have boiled down this argument into smilies. Not my proudest moment, nor anyone’s I assume. In many ways that summary, will sum up why this argument can never be won: too many idiots. On both sides. Loads of 'em. And the mere fact we’ve wasted our time on this means we're amongst 'em.

So really, we're all massive idiots regardless of beliefs. It is the division that religion breeds and even promotes that upsets me most. Let's just all get in the hot tub and forget our differences...and any guys have to wear trunks! :mad:

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Re: Religion (A.K.A. The thread destined to fail.)

In addition to what I have said earlier, my problem has never been the issue of whether there is or is not a god, to me its a moot point. My problem is the people who believe that the words of the bible, or any religious writings are literal and from a higher domain.

As for your figures Dave, the wars you stated, like all wars, are the inception of power, greed and domination, just as all religious wars of the past; here are some figures I came across, whether they are accurate or not I can't say.http://bookrate.wordpress.com/2006/07/22/deaths-over-history-religious-vs-nonreligous/

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Re: Religion (A.K.A. The thread destined to fail.)

Science' date=' unlike religion progresses as we learn more. Science is not about "What is life and its purpose" but about known facts that are scrutinized before being submitted. I don't know what science you are talking about being 'torn' apart, biology, geology etc, all support evolution through modification.

As for christianity, all its main stories are all taken from earlier religions, from the crucifiction to the flood, stories plagiarised from earlier religions.

As for christianity standing the test of time, to oppose it up to as late as the 16th/17th century meant certain death by stoning or burning, even I would have to keep my mouth shut under those circumstances.:rolleyes:. Now that science has broken through and is allowed to progress without interference from the church, we have learned more in the last hundred years than the 2000 years beforehand.

As I ask all people who support christianity, give me one record of jesus christ as a living person outside the four gospels, which were written between 80 and 150 years after the alleged time of his being. There are no Roman records of him, no mention of him from Roman scribes causing unrest, and let me finish by telling you that the town of Nazareth was never mentioned in any early writings, again, it was first mentioned in 300 AD.

As for your bible, no original writings exist so the stories were taken from copies of copies and then altered and omitted by Constantine when Rome decided on christianity. It was then further doctored by the catholic church to only include what they wanted in,(King James version).

So as for the bible being the word of god, think again, it was produced as a set of rules to keep the masses down by threatening them with superstition and fear if they stepped out of line. I could go on but time is of the essence.[/quote']

That was a post by someone who is very naive....before you start accusing do some historical research and you will see there is plenty of evidence that Jesus exists. Christian and Non-Christian historian agree with that.

Secondly after he was raised to life about 100 people who weren't followers who had seen him before and they claimed after. This wasn't a group of people who came together and thought that but people all over the countryside. You can't tell me 100 people had the same hallucination. Mind you with keeping with the quality of the other arguments you probably will...:rolleyes:

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Re: Religion (A.K.A. The thread destined to fail.)

In addition to what I have said earlier' date=' my problem has never been the issue of whether there is or is not a god, to me its a moot point. My problem is the people who believe that the words of the bible, or any religious writings are literal and from a higher domain. [/quote']

Dave, I have far to much respect for you as an individual to remind you of your numerous comparisons between God and Supernatural Mythology. :P

Nevertheless, help me out here, you have no problem with accepting their maybe a God? But at the same time you have a problem with those who choose to believe in his existence via religious text…is that correct Dave ?

As for your figures Dave, the wars you stated, like all wars, are the inception of power, greed and domination, just as all religious wars of the past; here are some figures I came across, whether they are accurate or not I can't say.http://bookrate.wordpress.com/2006/07/22/deaths-over-history-religious-vs-nonreligous/

That’s a ridiculous claim David, I am not surprised you dissasociated yourself from the figures..obviously using such a claim justifies:

800,000,000 deaths Divided by fifty thousand years of religion = 16000 deaths p/a

WW2 40,000,000 deaths Divided by 6 years (1939-1945) = 6,666,666 deaths p/a

Am I to believe that you are suggesting that after breaking it down to a common denominator ie a year , an athiest war has accounted for more deaths per annum than religious based wars? One wonders what happens if you was to repeat the same process using wars fought in the name of demoracy, power, territorial gain etc etc..

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Re: Religion (A.K.A. The thread destined to fail.)

So you say Jesus is not mentioned outside of the four gospels not even by Josephus but that is untrue. I have done some research and if you read Josephus' book Antiquities of the Jews, book xviii chapter 3 paragraph 3 you will see that he talks about a man named Jesus, a "doer of wonderful works" who was condemned to the cross.

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day

The bits in bold were edited in by someone else but the rest is his work.

Tacitus' Annals also talk about a man named "Christus" who was put to death by Pontious Pilate book 15.44

But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, avaiIed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration. Hence, to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with the most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of that name, was put to death as a criminal by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome...

Another from the Jewish Talmud

Perhaps most controversial of all historical references is a possible reference to Jesus in the Jewish Talmud. The passage speaks of someone who was "hanged" because he "practiced sorcery" and "enticed Israel to apostacy". If this passage refers to Jesus, then it is an interesting piece of evidence because it confirm Jesus' influence and that Jesus did perform miracles and healing, though the Talmud attributes His power to sorcery rather than coming from God.
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Re: Religion (A.K.A. The thread destined to fail.)

...Hhhmmm interesting :rolleyes:.

Following Christianty (and im guessing n e other Religion) can only be done if you have faith (as previously said). The only thing I have a problem with is ppl who change it. Im talking about Catholicism, Baptists, Pentecostals, CofE and any other denomination. These are now other ppl views on Christianity who then push those views onto us. Its a joke. Islam has the same problem. This has caused many conflicts not only between them, but within. (im talking about Northern Ireland and Northern Iraq but there has been many more). If ppl honestly believe the Catholics and Protestants who fought in the NI conflict are true Christians then they are fools.

Same is true with Islamic extremists.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8468456.stm for example.

I can see why some ppl choose not to follow a Religion when you see how some ppl preach how its the only way to live. But (and i can only speak of Christianity) it says in the Bible to spread the word :o

Having lived in the USA (where many ppl take Christianity very seriously) and having an extremely pentecostal Mother-in-Law, I had to deal with a lot of "The Word" drummed into me, so much so that I hardly ever got to speak about football :D. I always had to change the radio station in the car (when my M-i-L got in) to Z88.3 which is a "Christian" music station. You get many of these in America. What im trying to say is that there is more to life than just being religious, so dont make it boring for every 1 else. (I have said it before but how Belky survives in SC being a non-believer i dont know :D).

Basically i follow these rules:

If there is a heaven then I want to go to it, so I need to have faith, end of.

God said that only way to get into heaven is to believe that Jesus died for us on the Cross, so I believe.

I dont follow a denomination (like Catholicism etc) because they have gone beyond the point of Christianity (ie. praying to Mary (Cath)- pointless, not in the Bible. Same gender marriage (CofE) which goes against everything in the Bible. No drinking of alcohol (Pentecostal) when Jesus turned water not only into wine, but the finest wine (fortified grape juice)....etc etc as i could go on and on.

Is there 100% proof that there is a God and a Heaven? Sorry but no.

I also respect everybodies decision as to believe or not because at the end of the day neither party can be assured of being right or wrong.

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Re: Religion (A.K.A. The thread destined to fail.)

That was a post by someone who is very naive....before you start accusing do some historical research and you will see there is plenty of evidence that Jesus exists. Christian and Non-Christian historian agree with that.

Secondly after he was raised to life about 100 people who weren't followers who had seen him before and they claimed after. This wasn't a group of people who came together and thought that but people all over the countryside. You can't tell me 100 people had the same hallucination. Mind you with keeping with the quality of the other arguments you probably will...:rolleyes:

sorry to go off topic' date=' but lots of people claimed they've seen tupac that doesn't make him dead or alive. just like god being real or not, people lie.[/font']

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Re: Religion (A.K.A. The thread destined to fail.)

sorry to go off topic' date=' but lots of people claimed they've seen tupac that doesn't make him dead or alive. just like god being real or not, people lie.[/font']

I think without my belief in God, I would be scared of dying and I would also be scared right now thinking where my loved ones are that passed on.

So I'm not going to listen to anyone trying to prove me wrong, my life would be every shallow if I didn't believe in God.

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Re: Religion (A.K.A. The thread destined to fail.)

sorry to go off topic' date=' but lots of people claimed they've seen tupac that doesn't make him dead or alive. just like god being real or not, people lie.[/font']

yeah but 100 people who weren't followers all claiming the same thing when they hadn't gathered before...how much more likely is it that it happened

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Re: Religion (A.K.A. The thread destined to fail.)

yeah but 100 people who weren't followers all claiming the same thing when they hadn't gathered before...how much more likely is it that it happened

it's funny how it has to be '100 non followers' i find that ironic' date=' seems like a very defensive tactic to make more people believe. [/font']

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Re: Religion (A.K.A. The thread destined to fail.)

sorry to go off topic, but lots of people claimed they've seen tupac that doesn't make him dead or alive. just like god being real or not, people lie.

I have not seen God but I can tell when he is working. I have not seen the wind but I can see when it working. When something happens that neither chance or coincidence then I know that it is God. Such as my mother breaking numerous of her ribs and her arm in a terrible car accident but them healing within weeks without her needing the surgery that the doctors said she would need. Such a thing does not happen by pure coincidence and cannot be explained by science or human logic.

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Re: Religion (A.K.A. The thread destined to fail.)

I have not seen God but I can tell when he is working. I have not seen the wind but I can see when it working. When something happens that neither chance or coincidence then I know that it is God. Such as my mother breaking numerous of her ribs and her arm in a terrible car accident but them healing within weeks without her needing the surgery that the doctors said she would need. Such a thing does not happen by pure coincidence.

yep deffiantly

also of course the believers would keep believing :rolleyes:

whats so funny about that?

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Re: Religion (A.K.A. The thread destined to fail.)

I have not seen God but I can tell when he is working. I have not seen the wind but I can see when it working. When something happens that neither chance or coincidence then I know that it is God. Such as my mother breaking numerous of her ribs and her arm in a terrible car accident but them healing within weeks without her needing the surgery that the doctors said she would need. Such a thing does not happen by pure coincidence and cannot be explained by science or human logic.

Its this kind of justification that infuriates me, im all for people having faith, thats up to you, but dont make such sly comparisons, we all KNOW wind exists, we may not see it, but its proven its there, so dont compare a figure that hasnt been proven is there to wind ok . . . thats silly.

She broke her arm ? the bone snapped yet it was fine ? sorry i just dont believe you. Broken bones can heal withotu medical attention, but often in the incorrect position. Within weeks ? can you be more specific, and also be more specific on the injruies, did she break or fracture her bones, and science can explain that btw

Shame god didnt let all the people in Haiti know about the earth quake, would of saved more than your mums arms, approx 75,000 lives, so far

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Re: Religion (A.K.A. The thread destined to fail.)

Its this kind of justification that infuriates me' date=' im all for people having faith, thats up to you, but dont make such sly comparisons, we all KNOW wind exists, we may not see it, but its proven its there, so dont compare a figure that hasnt been proven is there to wind ok . . . thats silly.

She broke her arm ? the bone snapped yet it was fine ? sorry i just dont believe you. Broken bones can heal withotu medical attention, but often in the incorrect position. Within weeks ? can you be more specific, and also be more specific on the injruies, did she break or fracture her bones, and science can explain that btw

Ribs a little more believable,[/quote']

Yes we know the wind exists but we cannot see it, only what it can do. I know or rather believe that God exists and I ahve not seen him but I have seen what he can do and that event proved what he can do even if only to me.

She fractured her arm completely in multiple places; she had to write with her left arm. She broke her ribs in numerous places, she could not walk for days and she was scared she would neverwalk again. You really think I would lie about something like this? I was in that accident, I broke my left wrist, my dad died in that accident. She needed a cast for her arm; its not like they didn't take xrays. the xrays showed obvious signs of fracture.

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Re: Religion (A.K.A. The thread destined to fail.)

Its this kind of justification that infuriates me' date=' im all for people having faith, thats up to you, but dont make such sly comparisons, we all KNOW wind exists, we may not see it, but its proven its there, so dont compare a figure that hasnt been proven is there to wind ok . . . thats silly.

She broke her arm ? the bone snapped yet it was fine ? sorry i just dont believe you. Broken bones can heal withotu medical attention, but often in the incorrect position. Within weeks ? can you be more specific, and also be more specific on the injruies, did she break or fracture her bones, and science can explain that btw

Shame god didnt let all the people in Haiti know about the earth quake, would of saved more than your mums arms, approx 75,000 lives, so far[/quote']

so science answers everything aye...:rolleyes:

well just before you put too much effort into you do know the probabilities of all the atoms and everything falling into place and forming the earth don't you...its way over 1 in a billion chance. If your going for the more likely thing there is a creator behind it.

The Hati earthquake and suffering has been brought up and we've answered it a few times im not going to retype it but have a read mate. Here's a basic deal...suffering helps us not only see God because it shows us we can't live our own way successfully but also brings out the best in people. It's a tragedy what happened but we have, with God's help, been helping the people of Hati and making stronger relationships wit hthose over there.

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Re: Religion (A.K.A. The thread destined to fail.)

Yes we know the wind exists but we cannot see it' date=' only what it can do. I know or rather believe that God exists and I ahve not seen him but I have seen what he can do and that event prove what he can do even if only to me.

She fractured her arm completely; she had to write with her left arm. She broke her ribs in numerous places, she could not walk for days and she was scared she would neverwalk again. You really think I woul lie about something like this? I was in that accident, I broke my left wrist, my dad died in that accident. She needed a cast for her arm; its not like they didn't take xrays. the xrays showed obvious signs of fracture.[/quote']

We all know wind exists like you say, its not a belief, its scientifically proven, we can feel it, we know the cause of it, and we can see its movement when it moves dust / leaves etc, there is no doubting there is such a thing as wind.

My point was you cant compare the too, the only similaroty is that you cant see both. Thats where it ends, you dont know god exists you chose to believe to.

Fractured her arm completely ? whats that mean, she either broke it ( Bone snapped it two ), or she fractured it ( crack in the bone ).

No i didnt doubt the accident didnt happen i thought you exaggerated some of the facts. I apologise if i have strolled across a touchy subject and i apologie for your loss. :( So she had medical attention to her injuries then, and fractures would heal withing a matter of weeks in a cast. I dont see a miracle there. . . . or gods work

@ leedsfan I didnt say science answers everything, i cant give answers to the question your asking, but if you think i think there is a big man with a beard sitting on a cloud, your wrong.

Also, so he killed 75 thousand people to bring the best out of people ok . . . . .

Look, all i said was his comparison to wind isnt accurate, i dont try and change peoples mind on their faith, they are more than entitled to believe what they want, im saying why i dont believe in a god

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Re: Religion (A.K.A. The thread destined to fail.)

http://forum.soccermanager.com/showthread.php?t=58721

Might wanna have a look at that for your religious queries. :)

As for the existence debates, I always answer the same: Once you have mentioned something, not even necessarily in words, it exists. A unicorn exists, because it is something that is spoken of and imagined of and envisaged. As such, the same thing can be said of God and/or other deities. If you say it, it exists. If it exists, it can be believed in. :)

(This rule does not apply to Leicester City Football Club).

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Re: Religion (A.K.A. The thread destined to fail.)

We all know wind exists like you say' date=' its not a belief, its scientifically proven, we can feel it, we know the cause of it, and we can see its movement when it moves dust / leaves etc, there is no doubting there is such a thing as wind.

My point was you cant compare the too, the only similaroty is that you cant see both. Thats where it ends, you dont know god exists you chose to believe to.

Fractured her arm completely ? whats that mean, she either broke it ( Bone snapped it two ), or she fractured it ( crack in the bone ).

No i didnt doubt the accident didnt happen i thought you exaggerated some of the facts. I apologise if i have strolled across a touchy subject and i apologie for your loss. :( So she had medical attention to her injuries then, and fractures would heal withing a matter of weeks in a cast. I dont see a miracle there. . . . or gods work

@ leedsfan I didnt say science answers everything, i cant give answers to the question your asking, but if you think i think there is a big man with a beard sitting on a cloud, your wrong.

Also, so he killed 75 thousand people to bring the best out of people ok . . . . .[/quote']

Sorry but I let my emotions get the better of me, however I am not exaggerating the facts, I may have written my last couple of posts out of emotion but I did not exaggerate. Having cooled down I can safely tell you that the bone broke in two not shattered, and not just in one place but in two, I don't know much about the ribs but I know she could not walk for a while and she broke more than one. The doctors were saying that a fracture that serious would take more than a month, especially as it was quite serious and she would need physiotherapy after, yet it took something like two weeks; no amount of medical attention can cause repair that rapid.

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Re: Religion (A.K.A. The thread destined to fail.)

http://forum.soccermanager.com/showthread.php?t=58721

Might wanna have a look at that for your religious queries. :)

As for the existence debates' date=' I always answer the same: Once you have mentioned something, not even necessarily in words, it exists.[b'] A unicorn exists, because it is something that is spoken of and imagined of and envisaged.[/b] As such, the same thing can be said of God and/or other deities. If you say it, it exists. If it exists, it can be believed in. :)

(This rule does not apply to Leicester City Football Club).

Are you sure about that?:rolleyes:

There is a difference between believeing in something and something actually existing.

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