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Fixes for Liverpool (From a non-fan)


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Re: Fixes for Liverpool (From a non-fan)

No offence, but the supposed idea is quite unrealistic (however, if you meant that in FM, that would probably work). A lot of players have almost quite small chances to come, whereas you've left a lot of again players and some that aren't good enough (at least in my opinion).

Some I'd certainly agree with. Di Maria in particular I think will be manning the left wing as the successor to Ryan Giggs.

I have heard however, at least rumors of Liverpool keeping tabs on Chamakh, and Toulalan will leave Lyon when his contract is up (call me out if I'm wrong).

I don't think that most of the transfers I suggested were improbable. Who amongst them would you be skeptical of? Most of those players are at clubs you would still put "below" the level of a Liverpool, and most of it was financed by selling Torres.

Also I just watched the abomination of Juventus vs. Chievo, and I've got even money on Rafa moving to Turin very, very soon.

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Re: Fixes for Liverpool (From a non-fan)

Some I'd certainly agree with. Di Maria in particular I think will be manning the left wing as the successor to Ryan Giggs.

I have heard however' date=' at least rumors of Liverpool keeping tabs on Chamakh, and Toulalan will leave Lyon when his contract is up (call me out if I'm wrong).

I don't think that [i']most [/i] of the transfers I suggested were improbable. Who amongst them would you be skeptical of? Most of those players are at clubs you would still put "below" the level of a Liverpool, and most of it was financed by selling Torres.

Also I just watched the abomination of Juventus vs. Chievo, and I've got even money on Rafa moving to Turin very, very soon.

I don't think Rafa will leave. He actually said something like this. "If I decided to stay, it would be because of the fans," thats a hint that he will stay at the club, no other manager can replace him at the moment though.

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Re: Fixes for Liverpool (From a non-fan)

Some I'd certainly agree with. Di Maria in particular I think will be manning the left wing as the successor to Ryan Giggs.

I have heard however' date=' at least rumors of Liverpool keeping tabs on Chamakh, and Toulalan will leave Lyon when his contract is up (call me out if I'm wrong).

I don't think that [i']most [/i] of the transfers I suggested were improbable. Who amongst them would you be skeptical of? Most of those players are at clubs you would still put "below" the level of a Liverpool, and most of it was financed by selling Torres.

Also I just watched the abomination of Juventus vs. Chievo, and I've got even money on Rafa moving to Turin very, very soon.

CB's: I'm almost 100% sure that Alves will not come and Mertesacker should have a huge free along with him, thus turning attention from him (I don't think Liverpool can pay 20m+ for a CB). Gonzalo/Rolando could be quite realistic and quite good solutions, but even if Liverpool can get Mexes, I'm not sure he'd solve their problems.

Higuain is definitely not coming and I can give few reasons: 1) he's a started in Madrid and that's unlikely to change. 2) he can earn more money in Madrid 3) Liverpool would be a step back 4) New environment and adaptation 5) He's happy at Madrid. I just can't see Higuain going to Liverpool (or anywhere in Premier). However Chamakh is very realistic, but again - the kid's overrated. He's a good forward, but nowhere near the class of Torres (and will never be). He only started to be a real threat when he got a creative midfielder - Gourcuff. He's that kind of forward that needs support and Liverpool don't have too many of that type of players and the ones that do are either old, injury-prone or haven't adapted. Probably the best buy with buy a certain Marco Janko who'd almost 100% would want to come and would play well.

Di Maria probably wouldn't come for the same reason - huge sum of money (and he's likely to be gone till Liverpool raise money). As for Toulalan, he's not exactly a young boy, there are no assurances if he'd addapt and how'd he perform.

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Re: Fixes for Liverpool (From a non-fan)

Understandable. I did briefly postulate that new owners would have to come in and spend some money.

The Higuain acquisition was an exchange for Torres. I think Madrid would do it if, like I said, you made the price a little lower than Ribery. I like Higuain, too, but it all depends on what you find more attractive, Torres and Benz or Higuain and Benz? And does the Negredo buy-back play into this?

I agree with the idea of Marc Janko, and I don't understand why no one has yet to give him a serious shot. Especially as an Everton fan, if I won the lottery I'd send Mr. Kenwright a nice chunk of it to go buy him. I like Chamakh's game though, and I think maybe he's just a bit of a late bloomer. The Higuain/Chamakh combo would be interesting.

Again I agree on Di Maria, but disagree on Toulalan. I like him and he's only 28 right now. I'd be worried about age if you tried to bring a Marcos Senna, but as a defensive midfielder I feel you can play at an elite level longer.

CB is such a crapshoot, but you cannot, repeat, CANNOT win in the CL without at least 1 elite CB who can run and handle the ball a bit. I would throw out a player like Hangeland, but I don't think he has the necessary skill to anchor a top European defense line. EPL? Yeah, he can be very good. But up against the Spanish teams? I think he'd get carved up. Maybe it'd be smarter to go with Gonzalo and try for a Brazilian like Toloi? Who knows.

As for the cost of all this, it is all predicated on new ownership. In fact, Liverpool are looking up at the best example; Manchester City. Money moves people. Liverpool aren't a big club right now, but they are still top 10 in terms of name recognition and (obviously) tradition. If you can bring in owners committed to smart spending (if you sold Torres/Masch/scraps you could have $100m to start with) the players will come.

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Re: Fixes for Liverpool (From a non-fan)

This is how I would go about solving Liverpool in a much more realistic manner,maybe I will be wrong on some of them as I am looking from the outside in rather than the other way around.

1.Accept you have to stay at Anfield or Groundshare with Everton

For me the groundwork for Liverpool has not really started and they are in all kinds of financial trouble for it,accepting that they and Everton need to share one stadium rather than having seperate is the only viable option for me,unless of course they all want to stay at Anfield and that means the financial implications that come with it,they need a new stadium but it is no good almost jeopardising the club for it.

2.The fans need to stop saying they will win the title nearly every year

People may laugh at this one,however last season was the first season you went into a season for a long while with no pressure and it is the closest you have ever come to the title,I accept a lot of it is media based but it also puts a lot of pressure on the side,sure Man Utd have that pressure but they have that pressure because the players at the club have won titles before whereas none of the current Liverpool side have,it is not a criticism in many ways because perhaps Liverpool fans do not realise that it creates the pressure on the side that it does.

3.Blaming the owners does not help

I may not understand fully again but why do Liverpool blame the owners so much??,as an outsider I cannot see what they have done personally,you had no money and was racked up with debt before the came so what have they done to change the situation so badly?,sure they are not the richest blokes in the world but they have just both sold there NFL teams so they can cover Liverpools finances,it would be like me blaming Mike Ashley for our debts when they were all there beforehand,sure they may not get one with another but you could have a lot worse ie Mike Ashley,Rupert Lowe,Peter Risdale.

4.The Youth System

This needs a major overhaul,the last two first team players to come from the youth academy were Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher,sure people can say Martin Kelly and Jay Spearing are supposed prospects but so was Neil Mellor at one stage,however I have to say the Liverpool scouts are working well with the recent introductions of N'gog and Insua been great buys for such cheap money,still more homegrown talent is needed.

5.Transfer Market

I am sorry but there is no other way to describe Liverpools performance in the transfer market except poor,I do feel this is largely down to Houiller and Benitez,sure every poor manager makes poor buys but Liverpools is larger than most with players such as Morientes,Diouf,Diao and Nunez to name a few,there has also been some poor departures with the likes of Crouch and Bellamy who should have never been sold,also if Rafa did sign Keane last year then why sell him for 15 million and then not bring in another striker,even if he did not want Keane and Parry bought him I am sure he would have done that because Rafa identifyed that they needed a striker so why sell him and not bring another in,instead you have 2 strikers for 1 position which is leaving yourself light of cover espically with Torres having his recent injury problems.

if I was liverpool boss I would do the following deals

Transfers in

Chamakh Free

Sissoko 10 Million

Mancini 4 Million

Quaresma Loan with view to 5 million permanent

Rafinha 10 Million

Diarra 10 Million

Total Predicted Spend:39 Million

Transfers out

Babel 9 Million

Mascherano 30 Million

Kuyt 10 Million

Johnson 20 Million

Lucas 10 Million

Riera 10 Million

Predicted Total Income:89 Million

Liverpool Side:

Reina

Rafinha Skrtel Carragher Aurelio

Sissoko Diarra

Maxi Gerrard Mancini

Torres

Subs:Cavaleri,Chamakh,Quaresma,Ngog,Agger,Benayoun,Aqualini.

A lot of people wont agree with my deals but it is just what I would do

Most Liverpool fans know my feelings on Benitez so I will just leave it rather than get involved in another one sided arguement.

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Re: Fixes for Liverpool (From a non-fan)

I may not understand fully again but why do Liverpool blame the owners so much??

:rolleyes:

they've loaded the purchase debt onto the club

any profit the club has made in the past 2 years has gone to pay off that debt

they were brought in to take the club forward (i.e. get a new stadium going) yet the club has gone backwards

they havent put a penny of their own money into the club despite claims that they bought torres with their own money (they issued loan notes for it and payed them off with a refinance)

they've taken over £3m in 'expenses' from the club which included the time where hicks jnr brought his mates over too and trashed the players lounge, insulted the staff and threw up all over the place

there's a few things for starters

as for rectifying the problems, the owners going would be a good start. the youth system has had a lot of work done on it and there are far more good talents than the two mentioned (pacheco, kelly, amoo, dalla valle to name 4 off the top of my head), and rafa's work in that department will mean he stays seeing as the present owners are using the transfer fund to pay debts and yet they still expect CL football, well rafa's going about it the same way wenger is. and also get rid of any players that dont want to play for the manager (i can think of one big name player who i dont think wants to be here for longer) - for those who think the manager should go, in what other line of business does the subordinate get their way over their boss, especially when the boss has done nothing wrong? for the future a new ground - naming rights would cover a fair amount of the cost and besides a new owner would likely put the rest of the money loaned onto the club (which i have no problem with) and the club should just about be able to make enough money for the manager to buy the odd player to complement the blooding of a few young players

as for groundshare - dont see why everton need a bigger ground as they cant fill their current one (can see why for corporate revenue though).

as for sky sports and them trying to hound the manager out of the job, lets just say that when the next PL rights come to tender i wouldnt be sad to see ESPN get them off them, thus making sky sports irrelevant and putting the likes of keys, redknapp and martin tyler's monkey on the dole, which would be no bad thing

sorry, just saw the terrible buys sky sports style comment - terrible buys like insua, torres, mascherano, luis garcia, agger, benayoun, reina, crouch, sissoko, alonso, ngog to name a couple - just some god awful buys there...

re bellamy and crouch being sold - bellamy whacked a teammate with a golfclub!!!! and crouch wanted 'first team football' (in reality he would have stayed if a £70k a week package was given but the club offered much less than that)

point 2 however is quite valid - look at the resources of the club and any impartial person would see that what rafa's done on those resources (i.e. wage bill and net spend, far more important than gross transfer spend) and you'd see he's overachieved to do things like consistently good CL performances and outperforming teams like chelsea last year and coming so close to the mancs

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Re: Fixes for Liverpool (From a non-fan)

In all honesty, I don't rhink I can agree with a single one of those points :P Neller or Burs (oh look, he already has :D) or someone will go into more detail later no doubt so I'll just briefly give my view.

1.Accept you have to stay at Anfield or Groundshare with Everton

For me the groundwork for Liverpool has not really started and they are in all kinds of financial trouble for it' date='accepting that they and Everton need to share one stadium rather than having seperate is the only viable option for me,unless of course they all want to stay at Anfield and that means the financial implications that come with it,they need a new stadium but it is no good almost jeopardising the club for it.[/quote']

In the long term sharing a stadium with Everton would actually be worse than staying at Anfield. Say we even built a massive stadium of say 80,000. You have to remember that half the profits have to go to Everton. Any money for naming rights would be half. Hoardings halfed. Directors boxes halfed. If we want to go forward we need a stadium of our own, no question.

2.The fans need to stop saying they will win the title nearly every year

People may laugh at this one' date='however last season was the first season you went into a season for a long while with no pressure and it is the closest you have ever come to the title,I accept a lot of it is media based but it also puts a lot of pressure on the side,sure Man Utd have that pressure but they have that pressure because the players at the club have won titles before whereas none of the current Liverpool side have,it is not a criticism in many ways because perhaps Liverpool fans do not realise that it creates the pressure on the side that it does.[/quote']

I think it's out of hope more than expectation. Being brutally honest I haven't REALLY thought any Liverpool side in the last decade have had the quality to win the league. Other than maybe last season, even at that it's a big ask. That however doesn't mean we can't be hopeful and have confidence in the side. The fans comments can't affect the players much anyway. They hear more of the media than the fans.

3.Blaming the owners does not help

I may not understand fully again but why do Liverpool blame the owners so much??' date='as an outsider I cannot see what they have done personally,you had no money and was racked up with debt before the came so what have they done to change the situation so badly?,sure they are not the richest blokes in the world but they have just both sold there NFL teams so they can cover Liverpools finances,it would be like me blaming Mike Ashley for our debts when they were all there beforehand,sure they may not get one with another but you could have a lot worse ie Mike Ashley,Rupert Lowe,Peter Risdale.[/quote']

It may not help but it can't do any harm either! The owners are definately not 'not the richest blokes in the world'. The American teams they sold made them a massive amount of money and if they really wanted to they could pay off the debt completely and still have a fair bit left over.

4.The Youth System

This needs a major overhaul' date='the last two first team players to come from the youth academy were Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher,sure people can say Martin Kelly and Jay Spearing are supposed prospects but so was Neil Mellor at one stage,however I have to say the Liverpool scouts are working well with the recent introductions of N'gog and Insua been great buys for such cheap money,still more homegrown talent is needed.[/quote']

We're not the only team though. United/Chelsea/Arsenal have had very little homegrown talent in previous yeats as well. It doesn't really matter whether they're homegrown or not though as we actully have a lot of good talent in the youth teams and a lot of it is because of Rafa. He's improved the youth system if anything I believe.

5.Transfer Market

I am sorry but there is no other way to describe Liverpools performance in the transfer market except poor' date='I do feel this is largely down to Houiller and Benitez,sure every poor manager makes poor buys but Liverpools is larger than most with players such as Morientes,Diouf,Diao and Nunez to name a few,there has also been some poor departures with the likes of Crouch and Bellamy who should have never been sold,also if Rafa did sign Keane last year then why sell him for 15 million and then not bring in another striker,even if he did not want Keane and Parry bought him I am sure he would have done that because Rafa identifyed that they needed a striker so why sell him and not bring another in,instead you have 2 strikers for 1 position which is leaving yourself light of cover espically with Torres having his recent injury problems.[/quote']

Houllier was definately shocking in the transfer market but I think Benitez has had a lot of success. Most of the money he spent he made himself either by winning something (Europe) or by selling players. The players you mentioned; Morientes was sold for a loss of about 1 million. Hardly a complete flop. Nunez came as part of the Owen deal so you can't really say he was a disaster either as he cost nothing.

Rafa has had a lot of good signings though. Looking at the current team he has Reina, Aurelio, Agger/Skrtel, Insua, Benayoun, Mascherano, Lucas, Kuyt, N'gog. Some of those may be borderline 'average' but the majority are good players. Then we have players like Alonso and Crouch who were sold on for a profit.

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Re: Fixes for Liverpool (From a non-fan)

In all honesty' date=' I don't rhink I can agree with a single one of those points :P Neller or Burs (oh look, he already has :D) or someone will go into more detail later no doubt so I'll just briefly give my view.

In the long term sharing a stadium with Everton would actually be worse than staying at Anfield. Say we even built a massive stadium of say 80,000. You have to remember that half the profits have to go to Everton. Any money for naming rights would be half. Hoardings halfed. Directors boxes halfed. If we want to go forward we need a stadium of our own, no question.

I think it's out of hope more than expectation. Being brutally honest I haven't REALLY thought any Liverpool side in the last decade have had the quality to win the league. Other than maybe last season, even at that it's a big ask. That however doesn't mean we can't be hopeful and have confidence in the side. The fans comments can't affect the players much anyway. They hear more of the media than the fans.

It may not help but it can't do any harm either! The owners are definately not 'not the richest blokes in the world'. The American teams they sold made them a massive amount of money and if they really wanted to they could pay off the debt completely and still have a fair bit left over.

We're not the only team though. United/Chelsea/Arsenal have had very little homegrown talent in previous yeats as well. It doesn't really matter whether they're homegrown or not though as we actully have a lot of good talent in the youth teams and a lot of it is because of Rafa. He's improved the youth system if anything I believe.

Houllier was definately shocking in the transfer market but I think Benitez has had a lot of success. Most of the money he spent he made himself either by winning something (Europe) or by selling players. The players you mentioned; Morientes was sold for a loss of about 1 million. Hardly a complete flop. Nunez came as part of the Owen deal so you can't really say he was a disaster either as he cost nothing.

Rafa has had a lot of good signings though. Looking at the current team he has Reina, Aurelio, Agger/Skrtel, Insua, Benayoun, Mascherano, Lucas, Kuyt, N'gog. Some of those may be borderline 'average' but the majority are good players. Then we have players like Alonso and Crouch who were sold on for a profit.[/quote']

1.)I agree with your points about the groundsharing but the basic fact is you cannot afford to have your own stadium,Arsenal could because they planned it for years and saved up the money to do it,Newcastle and Man Utd who are two of the other biggest grounds in the country were expansions so saved use a lot of money rather than building a new stadium,By all means if Liverpool and Everton could afford there own stadiums it would not even be a debate but you can't so I dont see any alternative.

2.)You may have not believed but I believe the majority of Liverpool fans have meaning there is a huge pressure on the side to deliver,I have to say as a Newcastle fan there has been a huge pressure to win the cup in recent years,the players cannot cope with this pressure and we have not won a cup as a result,I think Liverpool have the same problems when it comes to the league.

3.)Sure they are not sugar daddys but you do not need them for success,Aston Villa could easily beat Man City in the final and yet do not really have that much of a budget,also I know he is a genius but look at Arsenal,they are always competing and yet dont spend half of what Liverpool do,Money can go a long way but it is not everything....

4.)Well from local youth prospects then you have a point as Arsenal have only brought through Cole,Bentley,Pennant and Wilshere,Man Utd have probably produced Welbeck and thats it and Chelsea have brought through Terry,However if you are talking about players come through the youth system that were not Local then Man Utd have Evans,Fabio,Rafael,Macheda and Gibson,Arsenal basically have there whole squad of youngsters who were not directly produced like Walcott and Fabregas,Chelsea also have several good youngsters emerging like Kakuta,Di Santo,Sturridge and Borini to name a few,whereas Liverpool only have Insua and N'gog who have made a first team impact.

5.)Nunez was still bad whatever slant you try and put on it:p,Morientes was sold of a loss at 3 Million not 1,Sure he has made a few good signings Reina and Benayoun in paticular,Lucas I dont rate and you bought him in for like 8 Million anyway so hardly a great buy and Kuyt was also 10 Million and I highly doubt you would get much more on either player if you were to sell them,Agger and Skrtel were good buys as well and Mascherano for 17 million was a good buy as well,I am not saying all his buys are bad but he does make a lot of bad signings and more than most managers would.

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Re: Fixes for Liverpool (From a non-fan)

1.)I agree with your points about the groundsharing but the basic fact is you cannot afford to have your own stadium' date='Arsenal could because they planned it for years and saved up the money to do it,Newcastle and Man Utd who are two of the other biggest grounds in the country were expansions so saved use a lot of money rather than building a new stadium,By all means if Liverpool and Everton could afford there own stadiums it would not even be a debate but you can't so I dont see any alternative.[/quote']

liverpool could easily afford their own stadium - whats preventing the club is the purchase debt which means the banks will refuse to loan the money for a stadium, the club is more than capable of getting a good naming rights deal and withouth the purchase debt the club can handle having a stadium debt on its balance sheet

and arsenal didnt 'save up' - they borrowed money, they issued bonds, had a naming rights deal (which turned out to be way under market value) and sold flats on the highbury site to pay for their stadium and charge incredibly high prices (£70 average ticket for a cat A game i believe)

as for rafa's signings, here are some signings made by the media darling mr ferguson the past few years:

carrick - £18m

nani - £14m

anderson - £17m

hargreaves - £17m

berbatov - £32m

valencia - £16m

now thats £114m worth of players - how many of those have justified that price tag? how many of those would be sold at break-even?

you may think rafa's been bad, but unlike ferguson he hasnt always been able to get his first choice (pennant instead of alves, krygiakos instead of shawcross/turner/upson) and hasnt wasted anywhere near as much money in recent years as ferguson has (and before you say 'they've been successful' its largely been down to one person who is now gone and its become quite clear how dependant they were on him)

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Re: Fixes for Liverpool (From a non-fan)

liverpool could easily afford their own stadium - whats preventing the club is the purchase debt which means the banks will refuse to loan the money for a stadium' date=' the club is more than capable of getting a good naming rights deal and withouth the purchase debt the club can handle having a stadium debt on its balance sheet

and arsenal didnt 'save up' - they borrowed money, they issued bonds, had a naming rights deal (which turned out to be way under market value) and sold flats on the highbury site to pay for their stadium and charge incredibly high prices (£70 average ticket for a cat A game i believe)

as for rafa's signings, here are some signings made by the media darling mr ferguson the past few years:

carrick - £18m

nani - £14m

anderson - £17m

hargreaves - £17m

berbatov - £32m

valencia - £16m

now thats[b'] £114m [/b]worth of players - how many of those have justified that price tag? how many of those would be sold at break-even?

you may think rafa's been bad, but unlike ferguson he hasnt always been able to get his first choice (pennant instead of alves, krygiakos instead of shawcross/turner/upson) and hasnt wasted anywhere near as much money in recent years as ferguson has (and before you say 'they've been successful' its largely been down to one person who is now gone and its become quite clear how dependant they were on him)

Carrick-He does what he is supposed to do,sure he was overpriced but he is hardly a terrible signing.

Nani-Terrible no other way to describe him

Anderson-I seriously think he has the potential to be top class,I would give it a year or two before I judge him yet.

Hargreaves-I have seriously been impressed when he has played but Injuries have wrecked his career so it is a bad signing until he gets himself fit.

Berbatov-Overpriced but still a cracking player for me,he gets a lot of stick when he shouldnt,he has been injured this year and has a much better scoring record this year than last.

Valencia-starting to come into his own now,16 million was perhaps a tad overpriced but Wigan wont get a player of Valencias quality very often so they will charge more.

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Re: Fixes for Liverpool (From a non-fan)

Carrick-He does what he is supposed to do' date='sure he was overpriced but he is hardly a terrible signing.

Nani-Terrible no other way to describe him

Anderson-I seriously think he has the potential to be top class,I would give it a year or two before I judge him yet.

Hargreaves-I have seriously been impressed when he has played but Injuries have wrecked his career so it is a bad signing until he gets himself fit.

Berbatov-Overpriced but still a cracking player for me,he gets a lot of stick when he shouldnt,he has been injured this year and has a much better scoring record this year than last.

Valencia-starting to come into his own now,16 million was perhaps a tad overpriced but Wigan wont get a player of Valencias quality very often so they will charge more.[/quote']

carrick's been good but bearing in mind he cost spurs £3m two years earlier they massively overpaid for him.

hargreaves had an awful injury history so why sanction £17m?

valencia - i'm amazed someone as in love with ferguson like dave whelan was prepared to sell him for so much

berbatov - misused for me, had he been the focal point of the attack i think they would have got more out of him, but not justified the fee, and he's approaching 29 too

anderson - he's been there for 3 years and if you pay £17m for a player you expect real results by now which havent been shown, but then again he's another player that has been misused woefully by ferguson as any porto fan will tell you he isnt going to be the next paul scholes

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Re: Fixes for Liverpool (From a non-fan)

carrick's been good but bearing in mind he cost spurs £3m two years earlier they massively overpaid for him.

hargreaves had an awful injury history so why sanction £17m?

valencia - i'm amazed someone as in love with ferguson like dave whelan was prepared to sell him for so much

berbatov - misused for me' date=' had he been the focal point of the attack i think they would have got more out of him, but not justified the fee, and he's approaching 29 too

anderson - he's been there for 3 years and if you pay £17m for a player you expect real results by now which havent been shown, but then again he's another player that has been misused woefully by ferguson as any porto fan will tell you he isnt going to be the next paul scholes[/quote']

I agree with most of what you have said there,Anderson is still 21 and will either become great or be average and could go either way,I think Fergie has lost his touch in the last few years tbh.

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Re: Fixes for Liverpool (From a non-fan)

1.)I agree with your points about the groundsharing but the basic fact is you cannot afford to have your own stadium' date='Arsenal could because they planned it for years and saved up the money to do it,Newcastle and Man Utd who are two of the other biggest grounds in the country were expansions so saved use a lot of money rather than building a new stadium,By all means if Liverpool and Everton could afford there own stadiums it would not even be a debate but you can't so I dont see any alternative.

2.)You may have not believed but I believe the majority of Liverpool fans have meaning there is a huge pressure on the side to deliver,I have to say as a Newcastle fan there has been a huge pressure to win the cup in recent years,the players cannot cope with this pressure and we have not won a cup as a result,I think Liverpool have the same problems when it comes to the league.

3.)Sure they are not sugar daddys but you do not need them for success,Aston Villa could easily beat Man City in the final and yet do not really have that much of a budget,also I know he is a genius but look at Arsenal,they are always competing and yet dont spend half of what Liverpool do,Money can go a long way but it is not everything....

4.)Well from local youth prospects then you have a point as Arsenal have only brought through Cole,Bentley,Pennant and Wilshere,Man Utd have probably produced Welbeck and thats it and Chelsea have brought through Terry,However if you are talking about players come through the youth system that were not Local then Man Utd have Evans,Fabio,Rafael,Macheda and Gibson,Arsenal basically have there whole squad of youngsters who were not directly produced like Walcott and Fabregas,Chelsea also have several good youngsters emerging like Kakuta,Di Santo,Sturridge and Borini to name a few,whereas Liverpool only have Insua and N'gog who have made a first team impact.

5.)Nunez was still bad whatever slant you try and put on it:p,Morientes was sold of a loss at 3 Million not 1,Sure he has made a few good signings Reina and Benayoun in paticular,Lucas I dont rate and you bought him in for like 8 Million anyway so hardly a great buy and Kuyt was also 10 Million and I highly doubt you would get much more on either player if you were to sell them,Agger and Skrtel were good buys as well and Mascherano for 17 million was a good buy as well,I am not saying all his buys are bad but he does make a lot of bad signings and more than most managers would.[/quote']

I'm sure Burs will clear most of this up but a few points:

We may not get £10 mil back for Kuyt should we decide to sell him, but what difference does that make? He has easily repaid his fee (he was the Opta-Index's best right-mid in the Prem last term and he's consistently scored vital goals in Europe for us). Take it from someone who has seen the vast majority, or maybe even all, of Lucas' games for Liverpool, that he is not a flop whether you dislike him or not. For starters, he cost closer to £6mil than £8mil. Secondly, he has been one of our most consistent players this season. Whilst most have wavered or become injured or suspended, he has been there throughout, our only ever present outfield player. He has worked incredibly hard to win the approval of those who were so quick to dismiss him and I'd say he has largely done so. He may not be the most elegant player, the strongest player, the quickest player or the cleverest player but he has a good ability in each of those capacities. People seem to forget that this lad, who was only 23 last week, has had to replace fans' favourite and £30,000,000 man Xabi Alonso. He has had to function for most of the season with either Gerrard or Mascherano absent and has filled in a number of different roles in our midfield. He has dealt with constant questions of his ability and with Aquilani breathing down his neck now. People are only to happy to praise Mascherano and Gerrard but this season, neither have played as well as Lucas in my opinion.

You mention the youth academy, but it isn't really fair to judge that right now since it is in a period of transition. Rafa has overhauled it and shrewdly appointed Dalglish (who will help to attract players, simply as many will wish to work with him) and Jose Segura, whose CV speaks for itself. Furthermore, if you're saying N'gog and Insua are our only young talents think again. We've just tied down Nathan Ecclestone, a highly sought after young Englishman and though he hasn't had much of a run out, good things are expected. There is a similar story for Amoo and Finnish Dalla Valle. I personally look forward to the day we have a front line of Amoo, Ngoo and N'gog! Nemeth looked impressive in pre-season, I here he is doing well in Greece and has impressed greatly internationally. Dani Ayala has played several times for the first team and each time settled well and showed maturity not befitting one of such a tender age. Pacheco perhaps even stole the limelight from Aquilani with his performance against Fiorentina.

You compare us to Arsenal and admittedly our academy is far behind theirs but Wenger has had license to build that academy in his philosophy. It took him a good 7 or 8 years before he was able to consistently produce youth talent instilled with the Arsenal style which is now so familiar. Chelsea have invested more than us in developing and acquiring youth talent (Kenyon often talked about how it was a priority, so the club wouldn't have to spend so much on players) and Frank Arnesen alone has cost Chelsea a pretty penny. Many United have had the benefit of Ferguson being able to establish links around the world and develop a system over time.

You talk about the pressure Liverpool fans have heaped upon the club by expecting us to win the league this year, but is that really so unreasonable? Since Rafa has took over he has consistently improved us, year on year and last year I believe (and I know many other non partisan parties believe) that Liverpool were the outstanding team in the Premiership last year. Even a United fan would have to admit we ran them bloody close and with their best player leaving, I believe we had a right to think this might be our year.

As for Villa doing well without spending money, let's have a look at net spend over the past 2 years:

Villa

In:

Stewart Downing £10 mil

James Collins £5 mil

Richard Dunne £6 mil

Stephen Warnock £6 mil (conservative estimate)

Fabian Delph £6 mil

Habib Beye £2.5 mil

Steve Sidwell £5 mil

Luke Young £6 mil

Cuellar £7.8 mil

Milner £12 mil

Davies £8 mil (conservative estimate)

Friedel £2.5 mil

Guzan £0.5 mil

Shorey £4 mil

= £81.5mil

Out:

Gareth Barry £12 mil

Luke Moore £3 mil

Maloney £2.5 mil

= £17.5mil

Liverpool

In:

Aquilani £17 mil

Johnson £17.5 mil

Kyriakos £2 mil

Keane £19 mil

Dossena £7 mil

Cavalieri £3 mil

N'Gog £1.5 mil

Riera £8 mil

= £72 mil

Out:

Keane £15 mil

Guthrie £2.5 mil

Carson £3 mil

Riise £4 mil

Crouch £11 mil

Le Tallec £1 mil

Finnan £1 mil

Alonso £30 mil

Arbeloa £3.5 mil

Leto £3 mil

Voronin £1.5 mil

Dossena £3.5 mil

= £79 mil

Aston Villa

Net Spend: £64 mil

Liverpool

Net Profit: £7 mil

Note: Haha, lol, forgot I'd written all this! :o

I've left my PC on for ages. I don't know if this is still relevant at whatever stage this argument is at, but I might as well post it :rolleyes:

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Re: Fixes for Liverpool (From a non-fan)

This is how I would go about solving Liverpool in a much more realistic manner' date='maybe I will be wrong on some of them as I am looking from the outside in rather than the other way around.

1.Accept you have to stay at Anfield or Groundshare with Everton

For me the groundwork for Liverpool has not really started and they are in all kinds of financial trouble for it,accepting that they and Everton need to share one stadium rather than having seperate is the only viable option for me,unless of course they all want to stay at Anfield and that means the financial implications that come with it,they need a new stadium but it is no good almost jeopardising the club for it.

2.The fans need to stop saying they will win the title nearly every year

People may laugh at this one,however last season was the first season you went into a season for a long while with no pressure and it is the closest you have ever come to the title,I accept a lot of it is media based but it also puts a lot of pressure on the side,sure Man Utd have that pressure but they have that pressure because the players at the club have won titles before whereas none of the current Liverpool side have,it is not a criticism in many ways because perhaps Liverpool fans do not realise that it creates the pressure on the side that it does.

3.Blaming the owners does not help

I may not understand fully again but why do Liverpool blame the owners so much??,as an outsider I cannot see what they have done personally,you had no money and was racked up with debt before the came so what have they done to change the situation so badly?,sure they are not the richest blokes in the world but they have just both sold there NFL teams so they can cover Liverpools finances,it would be like me blaming Mike Ashley for our debts when they were all there beforehand,sure they may not get one with another but you could have a lot worse ie Mike Ashley,Rupert Lowe,Peter Risdale.

4.The Youth System

This needs a major overhaul,the last two first team players to come from the youth academy were Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher,sure people can say Martin Kelly and Jay Spearing are supposed prospects but so was Neil Mellor at one stage,however I have to say the Liverpool scouts are working well with the recent introductions of N'gog and Insua been great buys for such cheap money,still more homegrown talent is needed.

5.Transfer Market

I am sorry but there is no other way to describe Liverpools performance in the transfer market except poor,I do feel this is largely down to Houiller and Benitez,sure every poor manager makes poor buys but Liverpools is larger than most with players such as Morientes,Diouf,Diao and Nunez to name a few,there has also been some poor departures with the likes of Crouch and Bellamy who should have never been sold,also if Rafa did sign Keane last year then why sell him for 15 million and then not bring in another striker,even if he did not want Keane and Parry bought him I am sure he would have done that because Rafa identifyed that they needed a striker so why sell him and not bring another in,instead you have 2 strikers for 1 position which is leaving yourself light of cover espically with Torres having his recent injury problems.

if I was liverpool boss I would do the following deals

Transfers in

Chamakh Free

Sissoko 10 Million

Mancini 4 Million

Quaresma Loan with view to 5 million permanent

Rafinha 10 Million

Diarra 10 Million

Total Predicted Spend:39 Million

Transfers out

Babel 9 Million

Mascherano 30 Million

Kuyt 10 Million

Johnson 20 Million

Lucas 10 Million

Riera 10 Million

Predicted Total Income:89 Million

Liverpool Side:

Reina

Rafinha Skrtel Carragher Aurelio

Sissoko Diarra

Maxi Gerrard Mancini

Torres

Subs:Cavaleri,Chamakh,Quaresma,Ngog,Agger,Benayoun,Aqualini.

A lot of people wont agree with my deals but it is just what I would do

Most Liverpool fans know my feelings on Benitez so I will just leave it rather than get involved in another one sided arguement.[/quote']

Transfers Out:

First of all, Kuyt has been one of our best performers this season, if we were to sell him [probably not] he would be worth at least 15 plus million, then Lucas according to Rafa is worth 14m, but he won't be sold. Mascherano might go, if he does, it'll be too Barcelona. Babel and Rafa have made up, he could still leave. We just signed Johnson and we need him at right back, he is perfect for bombing foward, Insua or Aurelio can play at LB.

Transfers in:

No one. Liverpool aren't prepared to sell anyone, if we do, it'll go to clear our debt. Rafa said he was interested in Rafinha for a while, I don't think so anymore. We already got Johnson. Are you talking about Momo Sissoko? The one who left for Juventus? I'd rather Harry Kewell.

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Re: Fixes for Liverpool (From a non-fan)

If he shaves his Goatee we will win the league.

Well' date=' we didn't win the league without the goatee and I can only assume that was nothing to do with the squad and only to do with his facial hair.

In that case, I propose a partial shaving and we may be lucky enough to see Rafa with a Fu Manchu. The league will then be a formality.

[center']rafafumancufcxbg.png[/center]

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Re: Fixes for Liverpool (From a non-fan)

We didnt win the league but we won trophies and also when we did lose games it was always because of the ref or some dodgey going on.

This season I am having to admit Liverpool didn't deserve games and I don't like it one bit.

I think the Fu Manchu look would be a brilliant tactical change and would win us the League and Europa League.

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Re: Fixes for Liverpool (From a non-fan)

Well' date=' we didn't win the league without the goatee and I can only assume that was nothing to do with the squad and only to do with his facial hair.

In that case, I propose a partial shaving and we may be lucky enough to see Rafa with a Fu Manchu. The league will then be a formality.

[center']rafafumancufcxbg.png[/center]

Do you enjoy drawing increasingly rediculous moustaches on various pictures lol? I'm referring to this and your avatar ;)

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Re: Fixes for Liverpool (From a non-fan)

Well' date=' we didn't win the league without the goatee and I can only assume that was nothing to do with the squad and only to do with his facial hair.

In that case, I propose a partial shaving and we may be lucky enough to see Rafa with a Fu Manchu. The league will then be a formality.

[center']rafafumancufcxbg.png[/center]

The one with your avatar totally owns the Rafa one, btw.

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Re: Fixes for Liverpool (From a non-fan)

Do you enjoy drawing increasingly rediculous moustaches on various pictures lol? I'm referring to this and your avatar ;)
The one with your avatar totally owns the Rafa one' date=' btw.[/quote']

A court order has banned me from simply drawing on people's faces. This is my outlet.

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