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Official Liverpool Thread

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

Team honours have nothing on your ranking as a player Ben it's that simple. Using your logic Messi can't be the greatest ever player because he's never won a World Cup and him and Ronaldo can't be the two best in the World because again they've never won a world cup. It's a ridiculous statement to say he's nowhere near the best because he didn't win the prem.

But the World Cup is something so subjective; in fact i don't even rate it as a competition, as once every four years a couple of random matches are played to see who is the so-called "best in the world". And also, as only Europeans were able to receive the Ballon D'Or until not that long ago, Pele (not being a recipient of the actual Ballon D'Or) wouldn't be one of the greatest, or would he?

In your example the spectrum is too wide to draw formative conclusions.

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

Team honours have nothing on your ranking as a player Ben it's that simple. Using your logic Messi can't be the greatest ever player because he's never won a World Cup and him and Ronaldo can't be the two best in the World because again they've never won a world cup. It's a ridiculous statement to say he's nowhere near the best because he didn't win the prem.

Have to agree with this.

Although Messi has lots of honours aside from the WC so he still wins anyway.;)

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

Seems to have descended into a peeing contest between two rivals and a "my dads better than your dad" argument.

Shame that people can't just appreciate a fantastic footballer's last moment at a club he has supported and grown up at.

However just to get in on the act, in the last few weeks Charlie Adam has been staking his claim to be the best CM of his generation. Bit of a late bloomer but never say never :P

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

Seems to have descended into a ******* contest between two rivals and a "my dads better than your dad" argument.

Shame that people can't just appreciate a fantastic footballer's last moment at a club he has supported and grown up at.

However just to get in on the act' date=' in the last few weeks Charlie Adam has been staking his claim to be the best CM of his generation. [b']Bit of a late bloomer but never say never[/b] :P

Just imagining Charlie Adam with a douchy Justin Bieber haircut now...

What has my life come to.

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

You cannot possibly argue that Gerrard is the best ever PL CM because he never won it. You can't be the best at something you don't win.

There's me thinking it was a team game and as such team honours in my opinion have no bearing on an individuals talent. So the more titles a player has won the better he is?

Shearer only ever won one Premier League title' date=' Chicharito has won two so going off your theory the latter is the better CF right?

Granted I am being somewhat pedantic but this part of your post does allude to such.[/font']

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

Team honours have nothing on your ranking as a player Ben it's that simple. Using your logic Messi can't be the greatest ever player because he's never won a World Cup and him and Ronaldo can't be the two best in the World because again they've never won a world cup. It's a ridiculous statement to say he's nowhere near the best because he didn't win the prem.

I am trying to be patient here...

Please read the below AGAIN.

Ok just so people don't just accuse this of being a United fan trolling let me start by saying the following positives which I hope you appreciate coming from a United fan:

I love Steven Gerrard as a player' date=' or loved him shall I say. I think he was terrific and very talented. In his peak his dynamism, power and commitment were a joy to behold and impossible to not admire. He could do most things for his team which is what made him so great and it will be strange to not see him in a Liverpool shirt. He is unquestionably a Liverpool legend and anyone suggesting anything otherwise doesn't understand football.

BUT RE: Redknapp's comments...

If you had a midfielder who was better than Keane, Viera, Lampard AND Scholes all combined (that is 4 players) then you wouldn't need a midfield you'd just need a Gerrard! It's laughable!

My point is he's so obviously not better than all of them and while it is completely right to celebrate a very good and special relationship with Liverpool FC it's definitely far too much to claim Gerrard is anything other than a absolutely terrific footballer and legend for Liverpool, and definitely a great CM but not anything else.

If Gerrard had won a PL winners medal then he could be considered a PL great, by definition in order to be the best CM in the Premier League's history do you not think a requirement should be to win the thing? It's not like he's played in terrible Liverpool teams all his career either. As much as he deserves to have a PL medal he never won one. So can't be ahead of those that achieved all he had, plus more.

Now I know that might not go down to well but objectively speaking you could not call someone like Lionel Messi the best World Cup player every for the same reason, he's not yet won the WC, so I don't see how it could be any different for Gerrard in the PL.

Despite that his performance in that Champions League game was absolutely incredible, I take nothing away from him there because it was an amazing comeback.

Unfortunately though the fact remains he never had that kind of moment to win a title, in fact, horrifically and undeservedly he had the opposite with his slip. I felt incredibly sorry for him because he's probably the only player to deserve one and miss out. I have the absolute highest respect for him.

In your opinion the lack of a medal doesn't taint his career but it is the one thing missing from his footballing CV in terms of club career which is impossible to ignore especially when people like Redknapp are claiming he's better than 4 of the greatest PL midfielders of all time for one reason or another.

With the medal it is perfect, without though something is missing and therefore by definition his club career is slightly tainted. That doesn't mean he isn't a legend, that doesn't mean he wasn't a great player and one of the best but it does mean he can't be considered THE best like Redknapp is making out in his comments. May I point out also that the lack of PL medal it is merely the slightest of blemishes on an all but flawless and unique career. The problem is that many footballers have careers with the complete set of staying at one club, winning CL, FA Cup, PL etc...

This isn't me hating on Gerrard, I'll reiterate again how much of a fan I am of him, he is IMO everything that was and is great about Liverpool FC but let's hypothesise for a second.

Imagine this. Scholes, Giggs and Neville never win the PL do you think they'd be considered PL greats, or the greatest to have lived like some are claiming of Gerrard? Do you not think that people would point to their lack of PL medals as a reason for them not being better than other PL players?[/quote']

All I am saying is that if you are considering the greatest PL CM of all time it has to be someone who was won the PL. Gerrard hasn't.

Just in the same way I would never argue Messi is the best WC player ever.

That doesn't mean Gerrard is a bad player, in fact if you carefully read the above you'll see actually how much of an admirer I am of his.

You're not looking at my argument instead you are now making up things.

If you haven't already re-read my post, in it's entirety and then tell me I'm being unreasonable etc.

I am being objective.

Besides I've already won this argument Keith has spoken out against a Chelsea legend! :P

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

All I am saying is that if you are considering the greatest PL CM of all time it has to be someone who was won the PL. Gerrard hasn't.

That is not true whatsoever, I don't think he's the best PL CM, but you don't have to win it to be considered the greatest, it's an individual honour, you can't judge an individual, on his teams performances, makes no sense.

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

There's me thinking it was a team game and as such team honours in my opinion have no bearing on an individuals talent. So the more titles a player has won the better he is?

Shearer only ever won one Premier League title' date=' Chicharito has won two so going off your theory the latter is the better CF right?

Granted I am being somewhat pedantic but your post does allude to such.[/font']

Of course it is a team game, I am attacking Redknapp's comment that Gerrard is better than Scholes, Keane, Viera and Lampard combined.

I also do not believe you can claim someone is the best ever PL CM etc if they did not win the PL, just like Lionel Messi despite being one of the best players ever to have played cannot be called the best WC player in history because he's never won it.

Well no Matt because you can make a very compelling argument for Shearer being the best PL striker in history because he won the PL and holds the record for PL goals. He's a very poor example to use BTW because he won the PL despite being in (if we're being honest) not the best of teams throughout his career...

I'd be very happy for you or anyone to claim Shearer as the best striker in PL history because he's scored the most goals and has won the darn thing.

You can't say the same of Gerrard as the best CM in the PL.

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

Why are we so obsessed with Jamie Redknapps views?

Email sky sports, or boycott your subscription,string effigies of him in the street while your at it.

So Redknapp got a bit carried away,probably caught up in the moment lol.

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

That is not true whatsoever' date=' I don't think he's the best PL CM, but you don't have to win it to be considered the greatest, it's an individual honour, you can't judge an individual, on his teams performances, makes no sense.[/quote']

If I'm looking for the best Dr in the NHS I want someone who has been able to work in a successful team for a prolonged period of time as well as being individually brilliant.

He is one of the greatest, I've never claimed he isn't? Again actually read my post before deciding what my view is on the matter.

To be even more perfectly clear.

Stephen Gerrard is a Liverpool legend and one of the best players in PL history.

He is not however THE BEST in PL history.

Also why should you not consider what team a player plays for? Would Messi be worth anything if he was playing for Accrington Stanley?

The team honours matter too, when you're comparing the absolute best you have to consider everything. Gerrard was excellent but others were better. There are objective reasons to support my argument as well as subjective ones.

The argument for Steven Gerrard is completely subjective (opinion based).

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

Of course it is a team game' date=' I am attacking Redknapp's comment that Gerrard is better than Scholes, Keane, Viera and Lampard combined.

I also do not believe you can claim someone is the best ever PL CM etc if they did not win the PL, just like Lionel Messi despite being one of the best players ever to have played cannot be called the best WC player in history because he's never won it.

Well no Matt because you can make a very compelling argument for Shearer being the best PL striker in history because he won the PL and holds the record for PL goals. He's a very poor example to use BTW because he won the PL despite being in (if we're being honest) not the best of teams throughout his career...

I'd be very happy for you or anyone to claim Shearer as the best striker in PL history because he's scored the most goals and has won the darn thing.

You can't say the same of Gerrard as the best CM in the PL.[/quote']

As I said I was being pedantic with my comparison, but it still does not alter my point. The part of the post I highlighted certainly alludes to the fact that you are saying the more titles you have won the better the player. Suarez has never won a premier league title either however it is safe to say he is far better than Chicharito who has won 2. It is certainly a subjective point of view.

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

my oh my you must be sick of us by now surely haha

tactics spot on from pardew, outstanding from puncheon/bolasie, quality team performance bar one mistake from kelly for the goal who looked like he thought he was still playing for yous

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

Ben, I think if you come on here saying people are better than Gerrard you're inevitably gonna get a lot of stick :P

As far as I'm concerned, Gerrard will always be the best for me. Overrall he could do EVERYTHING, something nobody else could do. People want to say Scholes was better? Fine, but we are all likely to give our own personal reasons for defending a player. At the end of the day, who cares, its a topic that will never ever be concluded. I'm just glad we've actually been able to see some good English players :)

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

If I'm looking for the best Dr in the NHS I want someone who has been able to work in a successful team for a prolonged period of time as well as being individually brilliant.

He is one of the greatest' date=' I've never claimed he isn't? Again actually read my post before deciding what my view is on the matter.

To be even more perfectly clear.

Stephen Gerrard is a Liverpool legend and one of the best players in PL history.

He is not however THE BEST in PL history.

Also why should you not consider what team a player plays for? Would Messi be worth anything if he was playing for Accrington Stanley?

The team honours matter too, when you're comparing the absolute best you have to consider everything. Gerrard was excellent but others were better. There are objective reasons to support my argument as well as subjective ones.

The argument for Steven Gerrard is completely subjective (opinion based).

Ben we have had our differences but apart from the obsession with Jamie Redknapps views,has any Liverpool fan on here claimed he is the best?

Apologies if one has,but it seems like your holding everyone responsible for Redknapps views tonight.

Clearly one of the best in PL history,are Redknapps views that important?

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

Why are we so obsessed with Jamie Redknapps views?

Email sky sports' date=' or boycott your subscription,string effigies of him in the street while your at it.

So Redknapp got a bit carried away,probably caught up in the moment lol.[/quote']

Redknapp ALWAYS gets carried away.

He's like that kid at school thats tries so hard to be friends with everybody.... but really everybody just finds him annoying. He thinks he's friends with everybody tho.

Not sure why that is relevant, but he annoys me. S**t pundit too.

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

As I said I was being pedantic with my comparison' date=' but it still does not alter my point. The part of the post I highlighted certainly alludes to the fact that you are saying the more titles you have won the better the player. Suarez has never won a premier league title either however it is safe to say he is far better than Chicharito who has won 2. It is certainly a subjective point of view.[/font']

Yes but you can point to various other statistics that prove Suarez to be better like total goals scored, individual accolades etc but you cannot do that with Gerrard over Lampard, Scholes etc

I think you're taking a simplified view of my take on things, I believe that when comparing the absolute best of the best within a certain league like the PL you have to consider everything including team awards that aren't the be all and end all but when looking at top players can be a deciding factor when all that can counter them is subjectivity.

I would always take a convincing subjective and objective analysis of a player over something just subjective.

So with Suarez vs Chicarito we have very clear records of their individual goals etc which we can compare.

I suppose we could also do the same with Scholes, Gerrard and Lampard, where Lampard would clearly win with his 176 and counting followed by Gerrard's 119 and then Scholes' 107 but then you have to take into account Gerrard and Lampard played in AM roles and Scholes was a deeper lying CM.

In fact Scholes is the only true deep lying CM to have broken 100 goals in the PL.

my oh my you must be sick of us by now surely haha

tactics spot on from pardew' date=' outstanding from puncheon/bolasie, quality team performance bar one mistake from kelly for the goal who looked like he thought he was still playing for yous[/quote']

Not sick of Palace at all, but you on the otherhand...

Ben' date=' I think if you come on here saying people are better than Gerrard you're inevitably gonna get a lot of stick :P

As far as I'm concerned, Gerrard will always be the best for me. Overrall he could do EVERYTHING, something nobody else could do. People want to say Scholes was better? Fine, but we are all likely to give our own personal reasons for defending a player. At the end of the day, who cares, its a topic that will never ever be concluded. I'm just glad we've actually been able to see some good English players :)[/quote']

I knew that when I posted but I thought people would at least accept Redknapp's comments as wayyy off the mark and also concede perhaps that while Gerrard is without question one of the greatest ever Liverpool players he is behind others in the PL history.

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

Ben we have had our differences but apart from the obsession with Jamie Redknapps views' date='has any Liverpool fan on here claimed he is the best?

Apologies if one has,but it seems like your holding everyone responsible for Redknapps views tonight.

Clearly one of the best in PL history,are Redknapps views that important?[/quote']

It seems like you might now have read my post and understood it :P

A couple have yes. My post was meant to be ripping into Redknapp but at the same time respecting Gerrard as a great player, although the discussion that followed was interesting haha!

RE: Redknapp they are important when they make me spill my cuppa!

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