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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

O'Neill

Can't believe that people are actually trying to defend MON's approach to the Transfer Market. Other than his massive ego (which 100% won't fly w/NESV) & the proof that the guy believes that he is bigger than the club...his approach, workings & stubbornness in the Transfer Market are the biggest negatives (and THAT's saying something) working against him.

Aside from flat out WASTING hard earned money (from a very tolerant owner) on complete duds , the guy NEVER EVER looked beyond the British Isles to scout for players.

IMO, if Henry & NESV are true to formula, the next manager is going to have the Transfer Market responsibility removed from their role. So you could actually argue that it's not going to be an issue with MON; however, the fact that this guy is only going to give you input about British players and nothing else, is cause enough to remove him from any list. He's small potatoes.

I said it when there was talk about SAF retiring last May,

"
IMO, he's a good Championship manager who can't consistently punch above his own weight when given the resources
"

I still believe this (^^^).

And anyone who thinks that what he did with Villa or Celtic are accomplishments enough to warrant placing him on the big stage is simply deluded.

Villa :
IMO he massively MASSIVELY underperformed given the resources that he had at his disposal. Aside from winning F-all, he was bounced early from anything on the European stage. Furthermore he showed ZERO fiscal responsibility as evidenced not only from the sick amount of cash that he wasted in the transfer market, but also when it came to the wage bill that he set the club up with. It was Leeds-esque...!

Celtic :
Anyone who thinks this is a "big-club" needs to go back in a time-machine. No one in Scotland has been even remotely near a "big-club" in years. For proof of this all you had to do is watch an Old Firm match any of the past 4 years. The product that these two teams put out is borderline unwatchable. This weekend was as good an example of this as any. During that match I kept thinking that one of the better MLS teams (Red Bull or Columbus or Galaxy) could seriously give either of those teams a run for their money.

To be fair, O'Neill might have briefly worked in a complete doomsday scenario @ LFC where Hicks remained owner and there was lots of talk and no one in charge and zero inhibition, but not at THIS LFC.

IMO, O'Neill is a complete non-starter when it comes to Liverpool.

.

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

O'Neill

Can't believe that people are actually trying to defend MON's approach to the Transfer Market. Other than his massive ego (which 100% won't fly w/NESV) & the proof that the guy believes that he is bigger than the club...his approach' date=' workings & stubbornness in the Transfer Market are the biggest negatives (and THAT's saying something) working against him.

Aside from flat out WASTING hard earned money (from a very tolerant owner) on complete duds , the guy NEVER EVER looked beyond the British Isles to scout for players.

IMO, if Henry & NESV are true to formula, the next manager is going to have the Transfer Market responsibility removed from their role. So you could actually argue that it's not going to be an issue with MON; however, the fact that this guy is only going to give you input about British players and nothing else, is cause enough to remove him from any list. He's small potatoes.

I said it when there was talk about SAF retiring last May,[indent']

"
IMO, he's a good Championship manager who can't consistently punch above his own weight when given the resources
"

[/indent]I still believe this (^^^).

And anyone who thinks that what he did with Villa or Celtic are accomplishments enough to warrant placing him on the big stage is simply deluded.

Villa :
IMO he massively MASSIVELY underperformed given the resources that he had at his disposal. Aside from winning F-all, he was bounced early from anything on the European stage. Furthermore he showed ZERO fiscal responsibility as evidenced not only from the sick amount of cash that he wasted in the transfer market, but also when it came to the wage bill that he set the club up with. It was Leeds-esque...!

Celtic :
Anyone who thinks this is a "big-club" needs to go back in a time-machine. No one in Scotland has been even remotely near a "big-club" in years. For proof of this all you had to do is watch an Old Firm match any of the past 4 years. The product that these two teams put out is borderline unwatchable. This weekend was as good an example of this as any. During that match I kept thinking that one of the better MLS teams (Red Bull or Columbus or Galaxy) could seriously give either of those teams a run for their money.

To be fair, O'Neill might have briefly worked in a complete doomsday scenario @ LFC where Hicks remained owner and there was lots of talk and no one in charge and zero inhibition, but not at THIS LFC.

IMO, O'Neill is a complete non-starter when it comes to Liverpool.

.

As a Rangers fan I agree

O'Neill is looked upon as a hero at C**tic

Yet McLeish had similar stats

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

I will always respect and look favorably towards Oneill because we did after all, have some of the best years in recent history under him, after under performing for so long.

However, i do not like the man, or think he is as good as people make out.

130 million pound spent :eek::eek:

30 million pounds worth of players sold, including young up and coming defender Gary Cahill for 5 million, who we replace with Collins :confused:

His is simply awful, horrendous, id swear if i could, in the transfer market, if we had someone else, with a good grip on the transfer market we would be in such a better position than we would now, and im confident we would of perhaps made a top 4 finish in the last 2 years, instead we nearly made it by punching above our weight.

He is a motivator, can get the best out of people, but he is not a world class manager, ill admit i was blinded when he first joined us, but now, in retrospect, he made so many mistakes its untrue.

If he went to you guys it would be disastrous, you need to rebuild a team, a squad. That requires money and bringing in new personal, two things Oneill is rubbish with.

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

O'Neill did take Celtic to a UEFA Cup final. Anybody who takes a relatively average side that far must be able to make a decent fist of it at Liver...oh.

Tru-dat...

However' date=' anyone remember how he did in the UEFA Cup with Villa[/b'] with a bigger squad and more resources at his disposal? Anyone remember that inglorious exit from Russia and the team & tactics he put out on the pitch ? Disgraceful. I would have been ripping my hair out if I was a Villa supporter.

These managers who excel in the UEFA Cup one time and then take the step up to a bigger club are sooooooooo hit-or-miss when it comes to future success. I firmly believe that one-time UEFA Cup success is NOT a good indicator of any kind of future success @ higher-levels.

Guy got his shot with Aston Villa and was found out.

IMO O'Neill is @ the same level as Hughes. Can get a bunch of scrappers to punch above their own weight.

But beware...! If you ask anything more from the guy you will quickly find that he's a good Championship-level manager (or bottom-half-of-the-table Prem manager). I'm not taking anything away from those guys... It's not only an important skill-set, but it's also extremely marketable. But ask anything more out of the guy and you'll be disappointed with the answers you get back from him.

I said it when he quit Villa :

"I will never understand these managers in this day-in-age who want control of all things futbol-related at a club, but take ZERO responsibility when it comes to anything fiscally related at the club."

"Any capable modern-day manager should be fully aware that the two are as intertwined as they get. If they aren't capable of recognizing that fact then they shouldn't be managing a futbol team, let alone a futbol club's Transfer Market strategy. They should be a good assistant manager and nothing more."

"(In his decision to quit Aston Villa) He basically told the world that he can manage a team and get results in only one sort of environment..... one where the chequebook is always open. Big deal. Guys like that are a dime a dozen. "Hey look how great I am... I am making money in a Bull Market."
:rolleyes:
So what... That doesn't automatically make anyone a good manager of anything (stocks, bonds, people, futbol, etc...). It's the managers that can navigate all types of waters (think POTC's Captain Barbossa) who are the REAL studs."

"...Saying that he only wants to manage a team where the oh-so-bothersome Profit & Loss statement doesn't enter into the equation, he is marketing himself as a manager which has gone the way of the dinosaur."

There is a pretty simple exercise that we could do to prove that O'Neill UNDERPERFORMED in the Prem and should not be given a "big-time" job anytime soon...

Despite the good effort, the book "Soccernomics" was hit-or-miss with its conclusions; however, one exercise and conclusion where they were spot on and proved correct was in relating a Club's Player Wages to their Finishing Position in the Table.

I can pretty much guarantee that if you look at the wages spent @ Villa during O'Neill's reign as manager, that you will see that the club finished at or below that level in terms of the Prem Table.

.

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

Moneyball

Plus, I was just thinking that if you guys want to understand Henry & NESV at all (or the future of futbol management), all you have to do is read "Moneyball". The content of that book courses through these guys veins.

Understanding that, you will realize that O'Neill's attributes don't even warrant an interview @ LFC. He's simply not their kind of manager. Not only are their abitions higher than the results he can provide, but his psychological make-up flies in the face of everything these guys believe in when setting up a club.

.

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

I can pretty much guarantee that if you look at the wages spent @ Villa during O'Neill's reign as manager' date=' that you will see that the club finished at or below that level in terms of the Prem Table.

[/indent'][/indent].

If you look at the overall % of income spent on wages, i think Villa under Oneill were only second to Blackburn :eek:

And its not because we dont turn over money, its because of Oneill.

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

I'm not sure if I put across that I was trying to make a redundant comparison with Hodgson very well, or if your post has gone completely over my head. I think I need to catch up on some sleep.

I make you 100% right though, O'Neill is basically Hodgson on a sugar rush. Competent at setting a team up given the right circumstances but stubbornly rigid in his beliefs, questionable (or y'know, just bad) in the market and plays largely uninspired brand of football. I suppose your trade off is motivation and being a passable Woody Allen lookalike for interpersonal skills. I'd probably take Hughes over either purely because he plays more progressive football, they're all very much in the middle of the road group though. If they were from overseas then the hype around them would be massively diminished.

The wage bill point is a great, and often overlooked, one as well. Never fails to annoy me when it's largely ignored in favour of expenditure and whatnot.

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

I'm not sure if I put across that I was trying to make a redundant comparison with Hodgson very well' date=' or if your post has gone completely over my head. I think I need to catch up on some sleep.

I make you 100% right though, O'Neill is basically Hodgson on a sugar rush. Competent at setting a team up given the right circumstances but stubbornly rigid in his beliefs, questionable (or y'know, just bad) in the market and plays largely uninspired brand of football. I suppose your trade off is motivation and being a passable Woody Allen lookalike for interpersonal skills. I'd probably take Hughes over either purely because he plays more progressive football, they're all very much in the middle of the road group though. If they were from overseas then the hype around them would be massively diminished. [/quote']

No I got it. It was a good reference.

And if you really want to complicate things with that reference in terms of Liverpool, just look @ what Benitez did in the UEFA Cup. Everyone on here knows I'm not his biggest fan, but I will readily admit that the guy took his success in Spain & Uefa Cup and became a big-time manager @ LFC.

Or even consider McClaren with his 2006 success (Middlesbrough UEFA), 2006 failure (Middlesbrough Prem), 2007 failure (England NT), 2009 success (Twente), and current 2010 disappointment (Wolfsburg). Hard to draw any conclusions out of that post-Uefa Cup record (despite my belief that the guy has more balls than all of the other current English managers combined).

The wage bill point is a great' date=' and often overlooked, one as well. Never fails to annoy me when it's largely ignored in favour of expenditure and whatnot.[/quote']

Agreed.

IMO, these are some of the important metrics that club executives should be strongly weighing when evaluating who to give a shot at when it comes to the step-up to the "big teams".

Points per Player Wage is just as important as any other metric out there.

.

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

I will always respect and look favorably towards Oneill because we did after all' date=' have some of the best years in recent history under him, after under performing for so long.[/color']

Adamski...You and I are likely on the same page with this, but for everyone else...

I'd argue that the most important thing to happen to Villa in 2006 was not O'Neill coming on board, but rather it was Randy Lerner and his deep pockets buying the club.

IMO, the Points per Player Wage stat outweighs almost everything when it comes to determining where a club should finish in the Table. At a minimum it's a good jumping off place to figure out where your club SHOULD end up.

Randy Lerner changed all of that @Aston Villa.

By drastically changing the degree of wages spent, Aston Villa under Lerner changed the equation where Villa should finish.

Anyway, like I said it would be a good exercise to run concerning O'Neill. Furthermore it would be a good exercise to run considering Benitez and other managers. It's not the only metric to look at, but it's a good one to help triangulate things when it comes to making decisions on managerial appointments.

I wonder how Hodgson would historically be on that...

And I bet someone like Pelligrini is off the charts good... (Laudrup, too)

.

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

I've been reading these recent posts with great interest, and I would like to ask, who available is the best man to take charge at Liverpool, and able to take the club forward under the current circumstances? And one who is to put faith into developing youth players along with bringing in talent from outside, in Europe, and abroad? :)

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

I've been reading these recent posts with great interest' date=' and I would like to ask, who available is the best man to take charge at Liverpool, and able to take the club forward under the current circumstances? And one who is to put faith into developing youth players along with bringing in talent from outside, in Europe, and abroad? :)

Dream Guy

Considering that we will likely have to pay-off a new stadium the ultimate guy IMO is Wegner, bar-none ! Anyone who simply looks at the 5 year hardware drought @ Arsenal and believes that the guy has underperformed as manager, has ZERO understanding of what this guy's contributions have been over the past 5 years. No other modern-day manager comes close to accomplishing what he's done in the past 5 years and how at the same time he has set the Club and Community up to prosper for years to come.

That said, he's not going to fit the current NESV model (although I'm sure they could tweak it to where he gets bumped up to a CEO Director of Futbol thing within a few years..).

Anyway... He's a realistic non-starter... for a plethora of reasons starting with that he's a London/Paris guy... (too bad IMO..)

Very Realistic Shortlist

For me the complete Liverpool shortlist & checklist is this (alphabetically) :

  • Laudrup

  • Löw

  • Pelligrini

  • Van Gaal

  • (and maybe *maybe* Deschamps)

Not only do they have the attributes that you mentioned, but as importantly they would fit Henry's NESV system (which I believe will be set up like the Red Sox), where the Transfer Market decision making is coming from the Director of Futbol and not the manager (the "Too-Many-Hats" theory). Furthermore all of these guys keep their traps relatively shut when it comes to the press (another attribute that Henry's system acknowledges as important).

Other Guys Who Should be Interviewed

But I hope NESV also kick around names like Wegner, Jol, Bilić, & Rijkaard. Literally some forward thinking into the position and the approach they'll take with their tactics. They are 100% worth interviewing simply for comparisons sake.

And I guarantee that Rijkaard and other European minorities get interviews. Something the current European futbol system is shamefully appalling at.

.

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

Logic (at least my logic, so maybe not) would suggest it might be more fruitful to fill the role of DoF/Sporting Director/Football Consultant first and then liaise with him when picking a new manager, if indeed they are going to go the DoF route. That is actually an infinitely more interesting appointment for me, there certainly aren't too many specialists operating in this country at the moment.

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

Hate the idea of a Director Of Football

Really...? How come...?

Because that's not the way things have always been done historically in 20th century futbol when Shanks was running the show or Clough & Taylor were running wild all over Europe...?

I hate to be the bearer of bad news' date=' but guess what... [/b']Futbol is big business anymore. Despite these clubs only currently bringing in the revenues of a single big Asda store, this sport is growing massively.

Say Sayonara to the days when you could take a family of 4 to the match. And let's have a BIG HEARTY STUDIO AUDIENCE WELCOME to the 21st CENTURY.... (applause sign).

Guess what England (and the rest of Europe)... Big Media already put the squeeze on sports fans in the biggest media market in the world (the US) 20 years ago.... to the point where die hard season-ticket holders have been pushed out to corporates... If we wanted to go we could still afford the season tickets, but dropping the additional £250 per match for a family of three (not counting tickets) starts to take a beating on the old wallet...

Do people still actually believe that a simple futbol manager (and asst. manager) has the following skill-set?:

  • Tactics

  • Evaluate current players

  • Scout opposition

  • Scout players globally

  • Run an Academy

  • Run a Clubhouse of Massively paid 25 year-old first teamers

  • Run a Clubhouse of Massively paid 20 year-old reserves

  • Handle Agents who are armed with International Law degrees

  • Have a deep understanding of the movement and trading of an International Transfer Market

  • Have the ability to actually trade players well

  • Understand Currency issues

  • Understand complex Tax issues

  • Understand the business of Image rights laws

  • Have the ability to understand Wage development and direction

  • Have Negotiation expertise

  • Have Psychological expertise

  • .

  • .

  • .

  • Gimme a break...

It is asking WAY TOO MUCH OF MANAGERS today to remotely believe that they have those attributes let alone do any of them well. Name me any manager in the Prem (sans SAF or Wegner) who do... I'd be willing to bet that you could go down that entire list and not name one manager who excels at even 4 of those attributes... FACT.

There are always the exception... Wegner and Mourinho who ace a lot of those. But even guys like SAF, can't manage 25% of those things on their own and they rely on futbol executives to make the final decision.

If we are against change and just want simple things, my advice is follow another sport. Because futbol over the next 10 years is going to go through a big change from the dollars involved to the ticket prices to the set-up of the organizations.

I trade for a living, and hardly know anything about this sport, but I can tell you that there are HUGE areas where the business of futbol needs to improve because it is being exploited by insiders (Agents, Players, Owners, Media, etc...) all to the expense of the general fan. That is not to say that things are going to get cheaper, but rather that there is MUCHO room for things to be run more efficiently.

One way for things to be run more efficiently is for a proper executive organization. For the most part the current set-ups don't cut it.

To think that your club is being run effectively with your manager doing everything is not modern-day reality (let alone the future of futbol/sports).

It's not to say that the ways of Shankly and Clough are the way of the dinosaur... Far from it. Their principles were ahead of their time and have a FIRM place in good futbol going forward ; HOWEVER, the way that they had a hand in everything is for the most part a way of the past.

I am putting something together that is more comprehensive on this, but IMO the executive set-up for Liverpool is going to look like this (stealing from NESV's Red Sox set-up):

  • Henry
    : involved in all big Club decisions including stuff with the big stars (don't think for an instant that this guy is hands-off)

  • CEO
    : reports to Henry & Board ; a sports-business guy ; sounding board for both Henry and the DoF ; also knows stadium building and finance like the back of his hand ; this is a Broughton-type of guy ; not a 7am-7pm job,but rather hard middleman & corporate negotiation work when necessary

  • COO
    : reports to CEO ; club operations guy (sales, tickets, project management, etc...)

  • DoF
    : runs the show ; reports to CEO, but has ultimate vote on transfers/youth/scouts/contracts ; NOT involved with ANYTHING on the pitch ; this is likely NOT a position for an ex-player unless they went back to school and received a degree from Cambridge or one in the Ivy League

  • Director of Player Personnel (?):
    No you haven't heard of this ; is the go-to guy when it comes to scouting players ; not sure if they will have this or not or if the DoF & his Assts. will divvy this role up

  • 2 Asst. DoFs
    : #s crunchers who sit in on all DoF meetings

  • Academy Coaches
    : report to DoF

  • Youth Scouts
    : report to DoF

  • Scouts
    : report to DoF

  • And finally... The Manager
    : tactics/handles players/tells the DoF what he needs and which players he likes / DOES NOT have final say on ANYTHING off the pitch (not transfers, not contracts, nada...!)

Logic (at least my logic' date=' so maybe not) would suggest it might be more fruitful to fill the role of DoF/Sporting Director/Football Consultant first and then liaise with him when picking a new manager, if indeed they are going to go the DoF route. That is actually an infinitely more interesting appointment for me, there certainly aren't too many specialists operating in this country at the moment.

Judging from how NESV handled things in Boston, they will do just that... IMO they will set up the executive structure first and then make a decision on the manager. The new executives will make the decision with Henry... Not Henry alone.

NESV time-line for the Red Sox (I expect the same w/Liverpool) :

  • 2002 acquire the Sox before the season starts
  • Within a month name a new executive structure (which totally shook baseball up!... more later on this...)
  • A month or two later name a new manager. They had no problem letting the previous manager go.. a guy who was only hired by the previous regime a few months earlier.
  • Get down to business... (money, stadium, transfers, etc...)
  • Get to Winning titles & trophies again...

.

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

As a Rangers fan I agree

O'Neill is looked upon as a hero at C**tic

Yet McLeish had similar stats

and strachan outperformed him in the CL too by reaching the knockouts 2 seasons in a row' date=' something oneill didnt do and he also did it with lesser players too

Points per Player Wage is just as important as any other metric out there.

i dont think you are his biggest fan but paul tomkins has a book out soon with a few other people where they discuss things like this and why certain managers do well at small clubs but not at big clubs (fat sam and newcastle spring to mind)

I've been reading these recent posts with great interest' date=' and I would like to ask, who available is the best man to take charge at Liverpool, and able to take the club forward under the current circumstances? And one who is to put faith into developing youth players along with bringing in talent from outside, in Europe, and abroad? :)[/quote']

pellegrini or laudrup for me.

and one thing with the whole DoF thing - there's nobody on the board who actually has any knowledge of the footballing side of things (and this goes back years) so we definitely need someone on the board who understands the game (kenny) and a DoF (would also go for kenny but as he is nearly 60 it'd be more of a short term thing whilst he grooms a younger person to take over from him in a few years time) who is there for the long haul and makes sure that the clubs ethos and the style of player produced/signed stays consistent throughout all levels (kids, reserves, 1st team) and ensures that whoever the first team coach is they fit this ethos.

and as far as i am aware only man city have a DoF type person (marwood), the city fans who come on here can confirm/deny this but i thought he was basically a DoF there but with a different job title

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i dont think you are his biggest fan but paul tomkins has a book out soon with a few other people where they discuss things like this and why certain managers do well at small clubs but not at big clubs (fat sam and newcastle spring to mind)

Thanks. I will keep an eye out. I welcome any analysis on anything futbol related' date=' considering that there is ZERO work in the field. Should be a decent read. I wish that someone like Jonathan Wilson @ the Guardian would tackle something like that. I ate up his "Inverting the Pyramid" book. Guy knows his stuff...

Speaking of decent reads... The other day I came across THIS comparison regarding the Everton match on the "Talking About Football" blog. Kind of a compare & contrast between Hodgson & Benitez & their approaches. I thought it was a nice piece of work.

One of the interesting things that was mentioned in there was how playing the higher defensive line actually worked to Reina's strengths more. Not the first takeaway you think of when debating Hodgson's low line, but an important one. Anyway it was a good read and the graphics are boss.

.

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

Speaking of decent reads... The other day I came across THIS comparison regarding the Everton match on the "Talking About Football" blog. Kind of a compare & contrast between Hodgson & Benitez & their approaches. I thought it was a nice piece of work.

One of the interesting things that was mentioned in there was how playing the higher defensive line actually worked to Reina's strengths more. Not the first takeaway you think of when debating Hodgson's low line' date=' but an important one. Anyway it was a good read and the graphics are boss.

.[/quote']

in the blackburn game we played a much higher line and reina looked so much more comfortable in that game and started a good few counter attacks and was looking for them when he couldnt really do that previously

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

and as far as i am aware only man city have a DoF type person (marwood)' date=' the city fans who come on here can confirm/deny this but i thought he was basically a DoF there but with a different job title[/quote']

Thinly veiled excuse for talking about the Albion but Dan Ashworth is basically performing that job under the title of Sporting Director and doing so fantastically. I genuinely think Liverpool could do a lot worse than look at him, though whether his talents would translate to such a bigger set-up is a valid question. Naturally in the national press RDM will get most of the credit for the clubs start but a little digging will find the likes of Odemwingie, Mulumbu, Olsson, Jara et al to be identified by Ashworth, while also loosely overseeing the youth development side of things as well.

I just can't understand the reluctance of English football as a whole to embrace the position, it's so obviously the common sense approach. This sort of pre-historic attitude contributes hugely to holding the national game back.

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Thinly veiled excuse for talking about the Albion but Dan Ashworth is basically performing that job under the title of Sporting Director and doing so fantastically. I genuinely think Liverpool could do a lot worse than look at him' date=' though whether his talents would translate to such a bigger set-up is a valid question. Naturally in the national press RDM will get most of the credit for the clubs start but a little digging will find the likes of Odemwingie, Mulumbu, Olsson, Jara et al to be identified by Ashworth, while also loosely overseeing the youth development side of things as well. [/quote']

i was wondering about you guys actually - noticed the other week on motd that di matteo was 'head coach' rather than manager. it also would explain why you've brought in the players that you've mentioned who have come from all over the world and most managers wouldnt have the time to look at so many players from all over the world whilst coaching the team and also it ensures that when you change managers you can keep a similar footballing philosophy and the transition is fairly seamless (mowbray to di matteo)

sadly in the case of ashworth he probably wont get credit due to his role and it goes against everything the majority of the press preach these days and how spurs only had success by ditching the DoF and gave the south coast destroyer 'arry full charge of anything (of course having a manager that didnt care one bit about the job, never mind that the team had 2 consecutive 5th placed finishes in the previous years and giving redknapp £100m+ had nothing whatsoever to do with the turnaround) when in reality it was more due to investing in the squad and hiring a better manager than ditching the DoF

I just can't understand the reluctance of English football as a whole to embrace the position' date=' it's so obviously the common sense approach. This sort of pre-historic attitude contributes hugely to holding the national game back.[/quote']

i've boldened the reason why it doesnt happen here ;)

but yeah, little things like this and with the majority of football clubs/managers/senior management having a desperate desire to pander to the press which is why if they do have one they'll either keep it fairly quiet (west brom), change the job title a fair bit so people wont think of it as a Do (man city) or reject the opportunity to have one at all and give the manager a huge workload and when the manager inevitably changes after 2/3 years you bring in someone else with a totally different outlook and you end up starting from scratch which ultimately costs a lot of time and money

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

and as far as i am aware only man city have a DoF type person (marwood)' date=' the city fans who come on here can confirm/deny this but i thought he was basically a DoF there but with a different job title[/quote']

To be honest, I'm not sure what any of their job titles are :o I think Garry Cook is still in charge of transfers and basically everything to do with the club. I reckon he spends the Sheikh's money so to speak. Marwood seems to work under Cook in the same kind of field but I have no idea what their individual roles are. I see as this kind of situation:

Blackadder_3_george.jpg

Sheik Mansour: Loads of money. No real idea what he's doing.

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Garry Cook: The 'brains' of the outfit. Big plans rarely come off and is prone to the odd blunder.

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Brian Marwood: Cook's dogsbody.

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

i was wondering about you guys actually - noticed the other week on motd that di matteo was 'head coach' rather than manager. it also would explain why you've brought in the players that you've mentioned who have come from all over the world and most managers wouldnt have the time to look at so many players from all over the world whilst coaching the team and also it ensures that when you change managers you can keep a similar footballing philosophy and the transition is fairly seamless (mowbray to di matteo)

sadly in the case of ashworth he probably wont get credit due to his role and it goes against everything the majority of the press preach these days and how spurs only had success by ditching the DoF and gave the south coast destroyer 'arry full charge of anything (of course having a manager that didnt care one bit about the job' date=' never mind that the team had 2 consecutive 5th placed finishes in the previous years and giving redknapp £100m+ had nothing whatsoever to do with the turnaround) when in reality it was more due to investing in the squad and hiring a better manager than ditching the DoF

i've boldened the reason why it doesnt happen here ;)

but yeah, little things like this and with the majority of football clubs/managers/senior management having a desperate desire to pander to the press which is why if they do have one they'll either keep it fairly quiet (west brom), change the job title a fair bit so people wont think of it as a Do (man city) or reject the opportunity to have one at all and give the manager a huge workload and when the manager inevitably changes after 2/3 years you bring in someone else with a totally different outlook and you end up starting from scratch which ultimately costs a lot of time and money[/quote']

Aye, his unveiling of Head Coach was greeted by the usual sort of hysteria and panic amongst large numbers of the fanbase and local media you'd expect. Seems to have gone a bit quiet now for some reason... Agree entirely though, the advantages are obvious and it's not exactly a secret at Albion yet the media are typically lazy in reporting it, it fits the tabloid media's 'DoF don't work in British football' narrative.

Harry's sort of annoying, because in many ways he's the antithesis the the sort of progress we should be embracing but he succeeds in spite of this. He's clearly good at what he does day-to-day but his transfer record at Spurs is pretty average. For every Defoe there's a Chimbonda, Keane or overpriced middle of the road signings such as Bassong or Palacios. And the vast majority of his successes have been players he's worked with before (Crouch, Defoe) or no brainers like van der Vaart. I wouldn't be enormously surprised if Spurs are placing more emphasis on scout's recommendations than Redknapp's hunches these days, I don't think he's targeted Sandro, for one. It'd be an intelligent move because his track record proves that though he'll find the odd gem he'll SPEND (bloody starring out of words) a lot of money away doing so, plonking him next to a DoF can only help to minimise the wastage.

BLACKADDER!

:D

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

Maybe i didnt quite understand the full role of a DOF, So a manager would still identify players but the Dof would have the final say if he's good enough?

So if Roy wanted a RB to fit to his tactics the DOF finds that RB or Hodgson tells him who he wants and the DOF either agrees or disagrees?

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

the latest bit from our manager:

"The lucky thing is that we are rebuilding around several top-class players. We have got Reina, Carragher, Gerrard, Torres, Kuyt - it's not as if we are rebuilding from nothing.... We have got a lot more expensive failures on our list than good players that we have brought in for next to nothing."

so there you have it - aside from gerrard, torres, kuyt, reina and carragher (rather bizarrely as he's on £90k+ a week until the summer of 2013) everybody else is overpaid (including i presume the players he brought in). great management there roy, wonder how the the rest of the squad apart from those 5 will feel at those comments you've made today, and you also forgot to include the man on £3m a year who's got liverpool into the relegation zone too.

is he actually trying to get fired here?

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

Maybe i didnt quite understand the full role of a DOF' date=' So a manager would still identify players but the Dof would have the final say if he's good enough?

So if Roy wanted a RB to fit to his tactics the DOF finds that RB or Hodgson tells him who he wants and the DOF either agrees or disagrees?

Not quite.

When it comes to the Transfer Market the DoF (and his Assistants) would be placing value on (1) the existing guys on the team and (2) potential transfer targets.

So the manager could come to the DoF and say I want an RB with the following attributes.... And the DoF would then come up with a short-list of players and then figure out who best would fit the team. Any contract negotiations are done by the DoF. Any transfer fees are negotiated by the DoF. The DoF will keep the CEO and Henry and maybe the manager abreast of big developments (particularly with the big-time players). If for whatever reason the DoF can't come to agreement about transfer fee and/or contract, it's on to the next RB on their list. And just like with the Transfer Market today, they will be negotiating with a bunch of guys simultaneously.

The other thing is that the manager could come to the DoF and say I want a specific player. The DoF will negotiate to get them in, but if it doesn't work out, it's on to Plan B.

Or, the DoF could be talking to another club already and be presented with an opportunity to acquire a player. And then the DoF could go to the manager and say something like, "I have a good deal to acquire Marcel Jansen. Could you use him ?"

Regarding the Big Ticket transfers in or out, with NESV you will find that it will be more of a collective discussion on whether or not to bid with someone. Anyway this is how they handle things with the Red Sox when it comes to Big Ticket guys. Henry has a vote. So does the CEO. So does the DoF. And a few others. However, notice that I am NOT including the manager in this list. Zero vote for the guy whose job it is to manage players and tactics and fragile egos. At the end of the day the DoF will have final say, but will solicit opinion from others.

The point of all this is that the DoF is there because this is way way too specialized a business anymore. You can't expect even the very best managers to understand the complex Transfer Market anymore, let alone tax law, or be able to manage a worldwide network of Scouts.

More than anything else this organizational structure emphasizes constant communication. No more decisions made in silos.

Yes, the role of the DoF takes away big chunks of responsibility from the manager.

However, the way that I suggest that people look at it is that it allows the manager to do what he is supposed to do best : tactics, manage the clubhouse and players, and win on the pitch. We simply can't expect knucklehead managers armed with nothing more than a good futbol mind and a weak high-school diploma to understand the complexities of this sports business anymore. Sooner or later the rest of the teams will figure this out too. Teams like West Brom already have. For me, I'm glad that we are run by a club who will most likely employ this organizational structure.

.

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