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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

Gerrard is still liverpools main man ' date=' and wont be sold in the summer. Pointless discussion tbf. Even if use did sell him, use wouldn't get anyone better in.[/quote']

We have played much, much better when he hasnt been in the side.

Don't get me wrong I hate saying it about the guy, hes been amazing for us. For years he was LFC and has gotten us results on his own, however his heart just doesn't seem to be in it this year.

first I would try dropping him for a few games to give him a kick up the ..... and make him earn his place in the team as atm its guarnteed no matter how he plays

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

Totally agree with burs and Neller. Gerrard, for as much as he has done for the club, has only been half the player that us supporters are used to seeing. Too much shaking of heads when balls haven't been played to him, rarely covering back or hounding of opposition players when we don't have possession as we are used to him doing. Lost the ball more than ever before and often having a gentle stroll instead of going full tilt to get the ball back to atone for his mistake. Rarely driving into the box or striving to get into a position from which the side may profit, rather hanging stationary. I would love to see an Opta graphic of the areas of the pitch he got into during games and also the total distance covered which compares this season to last. I'm convinced we'll find he's covered only about half the ground. Similarly his passing/tackling and shooting stats will also be worse.

As Neller says, it pains me to say that because he has truely been a legend in the preceding years and it seems not right to criticise someone who has done so much for the club. But facts are facts and considering we're talking about a dramatic drop in performance from who is in many ways viewed as the talisman of the club, it's no wonder the clubs performance has dropped. When the other players see their leader looking so out-of-sorts adn performing so badly, it's bound to affecdt the performance and confidence of others around him. Add in Carragher (2nd in command), about who much of the above can also be applied, well then its a recipe for disaster. And so it has turned out this season :(.

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

i have kept quiet for a few weeks now but my feelings havnt changed on Rafa, i feel he has lost the dressing room.. do you not feel that the attitude of the players has anything to do with the manager? not only gerrard and carra but torres seems off too.. Thoughts??

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

i have kept quiet for a few weeks now but my feelings havnt changed on Rafa' date=' i feel he has lost the dressing room.. do you not feel that the attitude of the players has anything to do with the manager? not only gerrard and carra but torres seems off too.. Thoughts??[/quote']

firstly if the players dont like him why dont the players go? just because he may have 'lost the dressing room' does not make it right to get rid of him (and for the record i think he's lost 2 players - carragher and gerrard and torres is more annoyed at the situation that the club is in) nor is it acceptable - once player power comes in you end up with situations like john terry at chelsea

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

Although i do agree with you,

Why is acceptable to effectively get rid of a player ( sell ) who is a club legend and who has helped the team forward

But not ok to sack a manager, with the justification that he has done great things for the club.

Surely comparitives can be draw from Rafa and Gerrard and i dont understand the differences in opinion between the two.

Ok to sell gerrard, not ok to sack rafa.

:confused:

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

Although i do agree with you' date='

Why is acceptable to effectively get rid of a player ( sell ) who is a club legend and who has helped the team forward

But not ok to sack a manager, with the justification that he has done great things for the club.

Surely comparitives can be draw from Rafa and Gerrard and i dont understand the differences in opinion between the two.

Ok to sell gerrard, not ok to sack rafa.

:confused:[/quote']

good point.. gerrard has done far more for the club than rafa

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

if liverpool dont finish top 4 do u think rafa will get sacked?

no and they shouldnt because the people who ultimately make the decisions are the ones who go

im not too sure about that' date=' are you still fully behind rafa burs?[/quote']

yes - he's had one bad season and in my lifetime i've seen man united nearly get relegated under ferguson, i've seen milan win the league a year after finishing in the bottom half and of course barca's great form over the last few years came after a horrendous season where they were relegation candidates in the first half of the season. more recently, just before man united won 3 leagues in a row there were growing numbers who thought ferguson was losing it and needed to go and even last year there were a fair few wanting wenger to go and he got a lot of stick at the AGM, yet look at them now. so he's more than entitled to a bad season and have the chance to turn it around, but he needs the two owners to go and he also needs to have the balls to get rid of the underperformers in a decision that will be very unpopular amongst many

do you not feel that carra and gerrard are not just frustrated at being played out of position ?

doesnt matter - if you are picked to play right back (and carragher has played there many times before) you play there' date=' the player has no right to tell the manager where he plays. and when you are on the pitch you give it 100%, something that gerrard has hardly done all year.

Although i do agree with you,

Why is acceptable to effectively get rid of a player ( sell ) who is a club legend and who has helped the team forward

But not ok to sack a manager, with the justification that he has done great things for the club.

because the player is on the way down and pretty much since day 1 appears to be disinterested and focusing on england so much that it has affected the team, not to mention his attitude which has absolutely stunk. add to that that the team has been better without him this year (which makes it look as if his attitude has brought the team down), and what the manager is doing behind the scenes to fix some of the problems the club has had in the last 20+ years (such as the youth training and hiring professional scouts to find young players in the local area as opposed to paying more people who arent as skilled a little bit to watch the odd u10s game), which is why i am behind the manager and would rather see the captain (and vice captain) be the one who goes

good point.. gerrard has done far more for the club than rafa

i would very much disagree on that point

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

no and they shouldnt because the people who ultimately make the decisions are the ones who go

yes - he's had one bad season and in my lifetime i've seen man united nearly get relegated under ferguson' date=' i've seen milan win the league a year after finishing in the bottom half and of course barca's great form over the last few years came after a horrendous season where they were relegation candidates in the first half of the season. more recently, just before man united won 3 leagues in a row there were growing numbers who thought ferguson was losing it and needed to go and even last year there were a fair few wanting wenger to go and he got a lot of stick at the AGM, yet look at them now. so he's more than entitled to a bad season and have the chance to turn it around, but he needs the two owners to go and he also needs to have the balls to get rid of the underperformers in a decision that will be very unpopular amongst many

all decent points but with football the way it is now can a club like ours afford to finish outside the top four? we could fall so far behind in terms of finance etc? if the fergie thing happened now for example, put the utd of the mid 80s (and i lived through that time as well) into the current time of football utd would sack fergie and they wouldnt be the side they have become because they would fall behind the likes of city chelsea etc. we are in real trouble here, i still say another manager could get more from this current squad than rafa is

doesnt matter - if you are picked to play right back (and carragher has played there many times before) you play there, the player has no right to tell the manager where he plays. and when you are on the pitch you give it 100%, something that gerrard has hardly done all year.[/quote']

and he has played rb, gerrard has been injured a fair bit of the season and played through it... well watched it in his position, in the hole behind n'gog where he cant bring him into the game as torres does and had lucas now providing the balls which xabi did last year, which he cant do to that standard either, stevie is redundent in that role this season, would that not frustrate you? and before you say he should drop and get involved we all know how much of a stickler rafa is for the players doing as he plans on the pitch, where to play exactly and where to cause problems for the opposition, its likely rafa tells stevie to stay where he is

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

no and they shouldnt because the people who ultimately make the decisions are the ones who go

yes - he's had one bad season and in my lifetime i've seen man united nearly get relegated under ferguson' date=' i've seen milan win the league a year after finishing in the bottom half and of course barca's great form over the last few years came after a horrendous season where they were relegation candidates in the first half of the season. more recently, just before man united won 3 leagues in a row there were growing numbers who thought ferguson was losing it and needed to go and even last year there were a fair few wanting wenger to go and he got a lot of stick at the AGM, yet look at them now. so he's more than entitled to a bad season and have the chance to turn it around, but he needs the two owners to go and he also needs to have the balls to get rid of the underperformers in a decision that will be very unpopular amongst many

doesnt matter - if you are picked to play right back (and carragher has played there many times before) you play there, the player has no right to tell the manager where he plays. and when you are on the pitch you give it 100%, something that gerrard has hardly done all year.

because the player is on the way down and pretty much since day 1 appears to be disinterested and focusing on england so much that it has affected the team, not to mention his attitude which has absolutely stunk. add to that that the team has been better without him this year (which makes it look as if his attitude has brought the team down), and what the manager is doing behind the scenes to fix some of the problems the club has had in the last 20+ years (such as the youth training and hiring professional scouts to find young players in the local area as opposed to paying more people who arent as skilled a little bit to watch the odd u10s game), which is why i am behind the manager and would rather see the captain (and vice captain) be the one who goes

i would very much disagree on that point[/quote']

how? if we are talking the champions league or the fa cup? wouldnt we have gone out with a wimper in the cl if stevie hadnt scored against olympiacos? before rafas great nights against juve etc but we would have been out? the final against west ham? we were terrible and i cant recall rafa slamming two wonder goals in to win us the game? take away those gerrard moments rafa has won nothing

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

and he has played rb' date=' gerrard has been injured a fair bit of the season and played through it... well watched it in his position, in the hole behind n'gog where he cant bring him into the game as torres does and had lucas now providing the balls which xabi did last year, which he cant do to that standard either, stevie is redundent in that role this season, would that not frustrate you? [/quote']

it may frustrate him but it does not excuse his attitude and him screaming at people for doing things that he does more often

and before you say he should drop and get involved we all know how much of a stickler rafa is for the players doing as he plans on the pitch' date=' where to play exactly and where to cause problems for the opposition, its likely rafa tells stevie to stay where he is[/quote']

and that has caused so many problems in the past??

how? if we are talking the champions league or the fa cup? wouldnt we have gone out with a wimper in the cl if stevie hadnt scored against olympiacos? before rafas great nights against juve etc but we would have been out? the final against west ham? we were terrible and i cant recall rafa slamming two wonder goals in to win us the game? take away those gerrard moments rafa has won nothing

ok, as for champions league without rafa's tactical acumen we wouldnt have got the win in deportivo (when gerrard was out) which would have rendered olympiakos irrelevant, his tactics were a key part in beating leverkusen at home (gerrard suspended) which renders juve fairly irrelevant (and of course there was the 2nd leg against juve where gerrard was not there). and the CL final before anyone mentions - two of the goals conceded were from gerrard not keeping his tactical and positional discipline

and it wasnt just steven gerrard who helped win these trophies - i get the feeling you think its steven gerrard fc, not liverpool fc. he's done some great things in the past, but if he cant/isnt willing to contribute anymore you have to make the harsh decision for the best of the club/team like ferguson and wenger have done in years past

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

it may frustrate him but it does not excuse his attitude and him screaming at people for doing things that he does more often

and that has caused so many problems in the past??

ok' date=' as for champions league without rafa's tactical acumen we wouldnt have got the win in deportivo (when gerrard was out) which would have rendered olympiakos irrelevant, his tactics were a key part in beating leverkusen at home (gerrard suspended) which renders juve fairly irrelevant (and of course there was the 2nd leg against juve where gerrard was not there). and the CL final before anyone mentions - two of the goals conceded were from gerrard not keeping his tactical and positional discipline

and it wasnt just steven gerrard who helped win these trophies - i get the feeling you think its steven gerrard fc, not liverpool fc. he's done some great things in the past, but if he cant/isnt willing to contribute anymore you have to make the harsh decision for the best of the club/team like ferguson and wenger have done in years past[/quote']

im starting to think your related to rafa burs..haha,or he has some pictures of you in a compromising state haha.. im not saying its all about gerrard and if he left so be it, iv supported the club long enough to know that one hero leaves there will always be another but i really cant understand your complete and utter support of rafa?? we both agree the owners should leave but for me rafa must too, belive it or not tis isnt an over night thing for me..

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

ii really cant understand your complete and utter support of rafa??

because i think he's fully capable of sorting out the problems the club has had off the pitch that falll under his control (e.g. youth) and has the ability to get the club back to winning the big trophies, but until those two go then his hands are tied (the same goes for any other manager who would have this job)

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

because i think he's fully capable of sorting out the problems the club has had off the pitch that falll under his control (e.g. youth) and has the ability to get the club back to winning the big trophies' date=' but until those two go then his hands are tied (the same goes for any other manager who would have this job)[/quote']

his hands are tied to an extent but the old addage that you bring in better players to replace the ones you sell he has failed on recently, im not wanting to debate the work he had to do after the gh squad but in recent times?

and as of youth, we seem to have some great prospects coming through, when do they get the time to get the chance ?

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

his hands are tied to an extent but the old addage that you bring in better players to replace the ones you sell he has failed on recently' date=' im not wanting to debate the work he had to do after the gh squad but in recent times?[/quote']

i'd say for the most part he did a bad job in the summer 2008, last summer i think the two new signings will ultimately turn out to be successes and soto has been but due to injuries they've been limited so far, but two of the main leaders in the squad went and i dont think that has been replaced

and as of youth' date=' we seem to have some great prospects coming through, when do they get the time to get the chance ?[/quote']

the two main ones are kelly and pacheco - one has been injured a fair bit and the other is on international duty right now, but they'll get their chances i have doubt

I do agree with you burs' date=' but i could argue the fact that Gerrards form, along with the rest of the squads could be down to poor man manegement by Rafa Benitez amongst other things, bringing up the same question, why is it ok to sell Gerrard but not Rafa given the justifications you use :)[/quote']

i honestly dont think his man-management has been poor in all honesty - look at ryan babel since their little chat in january - i think its fair to say that his attitude and mentality has massively improved since that and it is in large part down to rafa's little chat with him.

as for the squad as a whole, i dont think the man-management is bad as i think just about all of them are with him bar the captain and vice captain, and when the captain has been out there have been some good performances which players and fans can be proud of (lyon away, man u and spurs home, stoke away). one thing that i do think he has done wrong is continually play them which could affect other members of the squad as they all know that carragher will play despite agger/soto/skrtel all being better than him and gerrard playing despite bad form and attitude, and if he did drop those two (and kuyt, who's attitude isnt really bad but his form is and he needs dropping) it may help boost the other players who've thought that there is a hierarchy there but its basically been knocked down (my personal feeling is that rafa doesnt want to 'rock the boat' right now as we've seen in the cases of robson and gullit at newcastle what can happen if you bench your star player, and mourinho at chelsea what happens if you have a big fallout with one of your star players but he'd address the situation in the summer)

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

i'd say for the most part he did a bad job in the summer 2008, last summer i think the two new signings will ultimately turn out to be successes and soto has been but due to injuries they've been limited so far, but two of the main leaders in the squad went and i dont think that has been replaced

the two main ones are kelly and pacheco - one has been injured a fair bit and the other is on international duty right now, but they'll get their chances i have doubt

i honestly dont think his man-management has been poor in all honesty - look at ryan babel since their little chat in january - i think its fair to say that his attitude and mentality has massively improved since that and it is in large part down to rafa's little chat with him.

as for the squad as a whole, i dont think the man-management is bad as i think just about all of them are with him bar the captain and vice captain, and when the captain has been out there have been some good performances which players and fans can be proud of (lyon away, man u and spurs home, stoke away). one thing that i do think he has done wrong is continually play them which could affect other members of the squad as they all know that carragher will play despite agger/soto/skrtel all being better than him and gerrard playing despite bad form and attitude, and if he did drop those two (and kuyt, who's attitude isnt really bad but his form is and he needs dropping) it may help boost the other players who've thought that there is a hierarchy there but its basically been knocked down (my personal feeling is that rafa doesnt want to 'rock the boat' right now as we've seen in the cases of robson and gullit at newcastle what can happen if you bench your star player, and mourinho at chelsea what happens if you have a big fallout with one of your star players but he'd address the situation in the summer)[/QUO

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

have you actually watched the guy in person this year? his head is not on the club' date=' and when it is at that stage then its best to get rid than keep them around[/quote']

Obviously not, but seen a number of live games on the telly. Of course its not the same. IMO he is still better than just about every player at your club ( could argue torres)

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

Obviously ' date=' he is still better than just about every player at your club ( could argue torres)[/quote']

again, have you actually watched the guy this season because when he plays his sulk rubs off on other players and when he's out of the team the other players are better

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

Obviously not' date=' but seen a number of live games on the telly. Of course its not the same. IMO he is still better than just about every player at your club ( could argue torres)[/quote']

Based on what tho? his natrual talent and ability? yes of course he is hes amazing, however the same can be said for other top stars who lose there way (look at Ronaldinho for Barca) , Quaresma, theres loads but when they don't put the effort and heart into the game it shows big time.

Our best performances and form by a mile have been when Gerrard hasnt played, I still think its mainly down to the England thing being the WC year and possible his last at a decent age.

Wether people like Rafa or not, players using that excuse is just a cop out imo, If I was playing for Liverpool FC (eeven more so as captain) I would not need the manager to motivate me or "man manage" me, hes not a friggin youngster.

He needs dropping for a few games to show hes not untouchable and needs to pick up his form just like any other player.

If it was anybody else fans would be jumping on him big time (look at Lucas last year what everyone was saying about him, yet Gerrard has been far, far worse)

Ability means nothing if you dont use it

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Re: Official Liverpool Thread

If I was Benitez and had the balls I'd do this for our next game:

........................Reina.....................

.............Kelly......Soto.....Agger........

...........Mascherano....Lucas.............

Johnson.............................Benayoun

..............Pacheco.....Aquilani............

.......................Torres....................

I'm not sure if Pacheco is available but if he is I'd like to see something like this... If I remember correctly we played with a formation looking a little like this last season against Portsmouth and Portsmouth is our next game.

Opinions?

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