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Ratings Italian Serie A vs. German 1. Bundesliga


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Re: Ratings Italian Serie A vs. German 1. Bundesliga

Please tell me how you mentioned Neuer' date=' Adler, Kiessling, Petric etc. and yet not a mention for Frey, Marchetti, Jovetic, Bocchhetti, Asamoah:rolleyes:[/quote']

Exactly, and then add players like Miccoli, Bonucci, Ranocchia, Pastore and Alexis Sanchez to name a few.

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Re: Ratings Italian Serie A vs. German 1. Bundesliga

Well, now the German changes are done and I think this thread needs a short update. All in all I'm quite happy with the changes and they mainly confirmed my view on this matter. It seems that the standing of the Bundesliga has increased.

Some IMO unexpected rises

Lahm 93 > 94

To me Lahm has played like a 94 player for several years now. Finally he got his increase. Mainly because of Bayern Munich's good performances this season - especially in CL. But this goes hand in hand with the good performances of all German teams in the international competitions in the last ~3 years.

Schweinsteiger 92 > 93

A few months ago this player has been called as one of the overrated players in SM terms. And I would have agreed. Now he showed mainly in the second half of this season why he is a 92. And now he increased to 93 (to be again overrated?). He seems to be the "German Rooney" regarding SM ratings. Just showed one season why he deserves his current rating and then gets an increase (though Rooney hasn't got his 97 yet).

Honestly I never expected him to rise even with Bayern reaching the CL final. NEVER.

Özil 90 > 91

Of course he is a talented player and he has the potential to be a 93+ player once. But I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have got this rise in former times as in the second half of the season he hasn't been as impressive as in the first half. Though he will be regular for Germany I (like Phil, too) rated the chances for his rise very small.

Khedira 89 > 90

I could write here the same that I wrote above about Özil.

Dzeko 91 > 92

This guy has been discussed here earlier. And I posed the question if he doesn't deserve a rise. And honestly I have to say that the arguers against this rise - mainly Reddevilfc (if I remember correctly) - have almost convinced me, that a rise to 92 might be too early now though he has been the outstanding player in a bad performing Wolfsburg team.

And of course many other players below 90 that got higher rises as I expected like Hummels (87 > 89), Kroos (86 > 89), S. Bender (82 > 86) and many more.

So now the update regarding the table of the players rated 92 and above.

Germany

96

-

95

1 / Ribery

94

2 / Robben, Lahm

93

3 / Gomez, Schweinsteiger, Mertesacker

92

7 / Klose, v. Bommel, Olic, Frings, Demichelis, van Nistelrooy, Dzeko

Total number of players rated >=92

13

Average rating of these players:

92.77

Average rating of the 92+ players before the changes:

92.85

As we see: At the amount nothing changed as there also have been some droppers who dropped out of this table (Tymoshuk, ze Roberto). And with van Nistelrooy one player dropped from 95 to 92. But I have to say Tymo and RVN definitely deserved their drops. ze deserved it if you only view the second half of the season.

And surprisingly the average rating of these players dropped and despite that I'm happy. So are these stats useless? I don't think so. As I said I rather agreed with the droppers than with the risers. But the main positive effects I saw at the lower rated players (Khedira, Özil, Hummels, ...) but it would be a hard work to include them there. So these stats only show the peak but nevertheless give a small reflection of each leagues.

Regarding the average ratings of the 92+ players I have also excluded RVN now as he already should have dropped in Spain and therefore falsify these stats a bit. So:

Average rating of these players without RVN:

92.83

Average rating of the 92+ players before the changes without RVN:

92.67

And we see: The value of these players rose.

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Re: Ratings Italian Serie A vs. German 1. Bundesliga

I would like to make a quick point that i didnt see in the early conversations. i think the majority of that list is Juve/Milan/Inter...therefore to me just looking at that 66% of that list will be lower in rating. Im not sure anyone at Juve sans Buffon deserves to be over 92. (Diego [maybe he does too], Del Piero, Cannavaro, Trezeguet, Amauri, Camo) and at Milan i think aside from Ronaldinho (who i dont think deserves a 94) no one deserves to be 92 or over (even pato had a subpar season). I think this article is someone misstated until this round of changes which should be the final post-worldcup downgrade of these players.

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Re: Ratings Italian Serie A vs. German 1. Bundesliga

To me the biggest Shock was Schweinstiger. Very overrated at 92 and 93 is just laughable. To label him the 'German Rooney' is very very poor point. Those who watch Rooney know he fully deserved 96 and is unlikely to rise to 97 tbh. And IMO even in the 2nd half Schweinstiger was not worth a 92. The only reason he rose was because Bayern reached the CL final which begs the question how on earth is Carrick a 92 and maybe dropping to a 91.

The other rating I was surprised by was Ozil. Don't get me wrong he is a fantastic player and started the season really well but there's no way in hell Marin should be rated lower than him when Marin has completely outshined him lately. Lahm was pretty much expected and deserved. Ribery not dropping was another surprise.

And I fear the Inter ratings are going to be worse. I can see everyone getting a +1.

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Re: Ratings Italian Serie A vs. German 1. Bundesliga

im sure a lot of people saw the germany match today.

i know they wern't playing against the best of teams but individual abilities still stand out.

lahm is quality and fully deserves his 94. ok austrilia arent the best but his crossing is pin point = ability and technique like that dosn't just fade.

mertsacker dealt with things very well ( i know there wasn't much to deal with but maybe that is because he played well ? )

schweinstiger's passing reminds me of scholes, rarely misses a pass and spreads play well.

i know this was just one match but watching germany play i think will open up may peoples eyes to the fact the german league isn't rubbish just because we don't see them play very often.

it will be good to see more german and italian matches for this reason.

today i was surprised how good germany are.

made me realise i was a little ignorant of players like lahm in the past. i knew ozil etc was good but i was ignorant of players like lahm and mertsacker before i think :o

looking forward to the next few matches, may change my mind about a lot of players ! :)

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Re: Ratings Italian Serie A vs. German 1. Bundesliga

im sure a lot of people saw the germany match today.

i know they wern't playing against the best of teams but individual abilities still stand out.

lahm is quality and fully deserves his 94. ok austrilia arent the best but his crossing is pin point = ability and technique like that dosn't just fade.

mertsacker dealt with things very well ( i know there wasn't much to deal with but maybe that is because he played well ? )

schweinstiger's passing reminds me of scholes' date=' rarely misses a pass and spreads play well.

i know this was just one match but watching germany play i think will open up may peoples eyes to the fact the german league isn't rubbish just because we don't see them play very often.

it will be good to see more german and italian matches for this reason.

today i was surprised how good germany are.

made me realise i was a little ignorant of players like lahm in the past. i knew ozil etc was good but i was ignorant of players like lahm and mertsacker before i think :o

looking forward to the next few matches, may change my mind about a lot of players ! :)

Lol that made me laugh so much - it's the best league in the world! ;)

{I guess that will make some laugh to right?]

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Re: Ratings Italian Serie A vs. German 1. Bundesliga

Lol that made me laugh so much - it's the best league in the world! ;)

{I guess that will make some laugh to right?]

i don't understand your joke but all i was trying to say was that the best german players are as often good as their british counter parts ( for the clubs not nationality .)

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Re: Ratings Italian Serie A vs. German 1. Bundesliga

I just ammused me that you thought the league was as you put it rubbish and I think it's the best in the world. As for the white part I was saying people might laugh at me saying it's the best in the world also. :)

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Re: Ratings Italian Serie A vs. German 1. Bundesliga

"Schweinstiger reminds me of Scholes":eek:

Are you out of your head or what. The most overrated German player by a country mile. His passing range reminds you of Scholes? You mean those 5 yard passes here and there reminds you of those 60 yard raking passes. You mean he deserves 93 because of one good season (not even very good).

Agree on Lahm. Very good player and deserved 94.

Mind Australia were very very very poor. Their defender hardly have any legs left in them.

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Re: Ratings Italian Serie A vs. German 1. Bundesliga

I just ammused me that you thought the league was as you put it rubbish and I think it's the best in the world. As for the white part I was saying people might laugh at me saying it's the best in the world also. :)

ok rubbish was an exagegeration but i meant that i didn't realise how strong the german players were. :P

"Schweinstiger reminds me of Scholes":eek:

Are you out of your head or what. The most overrated German player by a country mile. His passing range reminds you of Scholes? You mean those 5 yard passes here and there reminds you of those 60 yard raking passes. You mean he deserves 93 because of one good season (not even very good).

Agree on Lahm. Very good player and deserved 94.

Mind Australia were very very very poor. Their defender hardly have any legs left in them.

yep like i said be interesting to see how germany do against the better teams.

schweinstiger isn't as good as scholes i didn't mean to imply that, but at times he was spreading play well. / i thought he wsa anyway.

he isn't as good as scholes who can put those long passes with backspin with unbeliveable accuracy, but schweinstiger spread play well i think :)

just opinion anyway

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Re: Ratings Italian Serie A vs. German 1. Bundesliga

Now the Serie A rating changes have been done, this thread needs another update. Actually it will be a huge update with some stats that took me a lot of time to collect them, but more later.

Now first of all I want to update the Italian "players rated 92 and above list" with the change of the amount in brackets:

Italy

96

2 (+/-0)/ Eto'o, Maicon

95

5 (+2)/ Cambiasso, Buffon, J. Cesar, Sneijder, D. Milito

94

8 (-3) / Zanetti, Lucio, Chiellini, Ronaldinho, Pirlo, Nesta, Totti, de Rossi

93

7 (-6) / Stankovic, Samuel, Juan, Diego, Frey, Gilardinho, di Natale

92

12 (+5) / Pandev, Cordoba, Chivu, Vucini, Perrotta, Pizarro, Mexes, Pato, Seedorf, Ambrosini, Zambrotta, del Piero

Total number of players rated >=92

34 (-2)

Average rating of these players:

93.35

Average rating of the 92+ players before the changes:

93.44

That's all for now but as I promised it will be a huge update so more will come later.

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Re: Ratings Italian Serie A vs. German 1. Bundesliga

Earlier in this thread I said:

But the main positive effects I saw at the lower rated players (Khedira' date=' Özil, Hummels, ...) [b']but it would be a hard work to include them there[/b]. So these stats only show the peak but nevertheless give a small reflection of each leagues.

and I have to say now: It was a hard work. But with using a famous spreadsheet programm and with a lot "copy and paste" I finally have

The amount of players for each rating in both leagues.

asasnv.jpg

As the Bundesliga only has 18 teams in, this stats can be compared best by looking at the amount of players rated ** per team.

We see: Especially in the high ratings (92+) Serie A still has an advance. The Bundesliga has more 91 and 90 rated players per team indeed, but the difference is very small (0.08, 0.02). With rating 88 and below at the first I would say both leagues are equal.

But I don't want to read something into this stats as actually these stats have only been the basis for the third part of the update which IMO is the greatest part of all.

The ranking of Serie A and Bundesliga clubs

by the average rating of their 15 best players

I thought it would be very interesting to know how good the clubs are rating wise. I only chose the 15 best players as I think these players are more or less the regulars.

In brackets (league placement 2009/10, CL/EL achievements 2009/10, league placement 2008/09, CL/EL achievements 2008/09) of each team.

  1. Inter / 93.4667 (1st // CL winner // 1st // CL last 16)
  2. Bayern / 91.7333 (1st // CL final // 2nd // CL quarter final)
  3. AC Milan / 91.4000 (3rd // CL last 16 // 3rd // EL last 32)
  4. AS Roma / 91.2667 (2nd // EL last 32 // 6th // CL last 16)
  5. Juventus / 90.9333 (7th // CL group stage, EL last 16 // 2nd // CL last 16)
  6. Fiorentina / 89.8000 (11th // CL last 16 // 4th // CL group stage, EL last 32)
  7. Bremen / 89.5333 (3rd // EL quarter final // 10th // CL group stage, EL final)
  8. Hamburg / 89.5333 (7th // EL semi final // 5th // EL semi final)
  9. Leverkusen / 88.9333 (4th // - // 9th // -)
  10. Wolfsburg / 88.8667 (8th // CL group stage, EL quarter final // 1st // EL last 32)
  11. Napoli / 88.8000 (6th // - // 12th // EL 1st round)
  12. Palermo / 88.6667 (5th // - // 8th // -)
  13. FC Genoa / 88.6000 (9th // EL group stage // 5th // -)
  14. Schalke 04 / 88.4667 (2nd // - // 8th // EL group stage)
  15. Stuttgart / 88.4000 (6th // CL last 16 // 3rd // EL last 32)
  16. Udinese / 88.3333 (15th // - // 7th // EL quarter final)
  17. Sampdoria Genoa / 88.0667 (4th // - // 13th // EL last 32)
  18. Lazio Roma / 87.7333 (12th // EL group stage // 10th // -)
  19. Dortmund / 87.7333 (4th // - // 6th // EL 1st round)
  20. Hoffenheim / 87.4000 (11th // - // 7th // -)
  21. Cagliari / 87.3333 (16th // - // 9th // -)
  22. Frankfurt / 87.1333 (10th // - // 13th // -)
  23. Catania / 87 (13th // - // 15th // -)
  24. FC Köln / 86.4667 (13th // - // 12th // -)
  25. Parma / 86.4000 (8th // - //Serie B 2nd // -)
  26. Gladbach / 86.3333 (12th // - // 15th // -)
  27. Hannover / 86.2000 (15th // - // 11th // -)
  28. Chievo / 86.1333 (14th // - // 16th // -)
  29. Bari / 86 (10th // - // Serie B 1st // -)
  30. Bologna / 85.7333 (17th // - // 17th // -)
  31. Mainz / 85.7333 (9th // - // 2. Bundesliga 2nd // -)
  32. Freiburg / 85.4000 (14th // - // 2. Bundesliga 1st // -)
  33. Nürnberg / 84.8000 (16th // - // 2. Bundesliga 3rd // -)
  34. Lecce / 84 (Serie B 1st // - // 20th // -)
  35. Brescia / 83.8667 (Serie B 3rd // - // Serie B 4th // -)
  36. St Pauli / 83.6667 (2. Bundesliga 2nd // - // 2. Bundesliga 8th // -)
  37. Kaiserslautern / 83.2000 (2. Bundesliga 1st // - // 2. Bundesliga 7th // -)
  38. Cesena / 82.6667 (Serie B 2nd // - // Serie C1 1st // -)

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  • 1 month later...

Re: Ratings Italian Serie A vs. German 1. Bundesliga

Now with Werder Bremen and Sampdoria facing each other in the third qualifying round, Germany will definately surpass Italy in the ranking if Bremen goes through. I really hate the qualifying system Platini introduced some years ago. Those who came 3rd/4th in the bigger leagues of Europe will be forced to be in the same ''side'' of the 3rd round, whilst those who came 1st in those minor leagues are on the same ''side'' of the 3rd qualifying round. I hate this rule Platini introuduced. I mean, they are perhaps Champions and this cup is for Champions, but be serious, what chance do they have to even survive in the group? :rolleyes:

Anyway, as I said, interesting game. Werder will definately rely much on weather Özil will stay or not. I believe he'll stay though this year and leave as a free agent next year to either Real Madrid (if Kaka keeps failing), or to Chelsea/Man United. I believe and assuming he'll stay though. If Samp wants to have a chance in this game, they better need attacking on the wings. I'm not the biggest fan of Fritz/Boenisch, but the wings aren't Sampdoria's strongest position. They have Semioli there, who is a above average perhaps abit, but nothing more than that. I don't know if Mannini is still a Napoli or Samp player, but I believe he is with Samp. Mannini is a dangerous player, I look forward to see him in action against Fritz! A thing that does count in favour for Werder is that Sampdoria hasn't been buying any new players this summer (exepct for a new keeper in Curci). Rumors are saying that they will buy new players if they make it into CL, which is totally the wrong attitude. They are shooting themselves in the foot, really.

Though game, and interesting game. I want Sampdoria (Italy) to win beacuse it will abit easier for Italy to maintain their 3rd place in the UEFA ranking and therefore, Milan, with all those older guys will have it easier to get a place in CL again, and with now Genoa buying all those young talented players, and a proven goal-scorer in Toni, and Juve building a new empire, and Samp building on last years success, and Palermo and Napoli beeing strong contenders aswell for CL spots, I am so desperate for Sampdoria to win. Not for the matter of Italy, but for the matter of Milan.

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Re: Ratings Italian Serie A vs. German 1. Bundesliga

I really hate the qualifying system Platini introduced some years ago. Those who came 3rd/4th in the bigger leagues of Europe will be forced to be in the same ''side'' of the 3rd round' date=' whilst those who came 1st in those minor leagues are on the same ''side'' of the 3rd qualifying round. I hate this rule Platini introuduced. I mean, they are perhaps Champions and this cup is for Champions, but be serious, what chance do they have to even survive in the group? :rolleyes: [/quote']

I have to disagree with you, Yonathan. I think the system is fair. I mean, the 'minor' leagues UEFA Co-Efficient raking is low that they have to qualify from the 1st or 2nd round and that isn't fair as the likes of Real Madrid, Roma etc qualify directly to the group stages despite being runners-up. If it wasn't for the rankings, then it would be a different story. Plus, it's all about the money these days. If a club from a 'minor' qualifies for the group stages then -> €$£! B) Also, what chance does Sampdoria etc have a chance of surviving in a group against the likes of Barcelona, Spurs, Twente etc. :rolleyes:

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Re: Ratings Italian Serie A vs. German 1. Bundesliga

I think the system is fair. I mean' date=' the 'minor' leagues UEFA Co-Efficient raking is low that they have to qualify from the 1st or 2nd round and that isn't fair as the likes of Real Madrid, Roma etc qualify directly to the group stages despite being runners-up.[/quote']

In my opinion, getting a third place in of of the 5 strongest league in Europe than getting a 1st place in a minor league. Do you believe AIK would have finished even top 15 in Bundesliga if they played there? No, they wouldn't, and they would surely getting relegated instead. This doesn't definately benefit the tournament in my opinion, and the tournaments gets less exciting. I mean, we wants to see an interesting game. Instead, we see Barcelona dominating Žilina in the group stage with like a 6-0 win. That would be very boring, and it would more look like Barca played in the league rather than in CL.

Plus' date=' it's all about the money these days. If a club from a 'minor' qualifies for the group stages then -> €$£! B)[/quote']

No it isn't - Mallorca were to poor to play in Europa League this season and UEFA decided to drop Mallorca's place to Villarreal, who finished next to them.

Also' date=' what chance does Sampdoria etc have a chance of surviving in a group against the likes of Barcelona, Spurs, Twente etc. :rolleyes:[/quote']

Sampdoria would beat Twente easily, and have a desent shot at 2nd place alongside Spurs.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Re: Ratings Italian Serie A vs. German 1. Bundesliga

Well' date=' first round in the direct comparison goes to Bremen and the Bundesliga.[/quote']

Yes it does, and Hunt played a great game. Who needs Ozil aye. :D The Germans looked very good all over and Marin coming on will change any game. What's funny, and according to this thread was, watching in America, Warren Barton summed up by saying the Italian league is stronger than the German, for some particular thing, not of a comparison of the 2 teams. For that, they gave a Bremen win by majority. :)

Will refs behind the goals become more prominent in the future?

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Re: Ratings Italian Serie A vs. German 1. Bundesliga

Will refs behind the goals become more prominent in the future?

Though this is OT, I'll have to answer on this.

I don't hope so. If they have the chance to use the technology why not using it. Refs behind the goals are IMO nonsense.

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Riferimento: Re: Ratings Italian Serie A vs. German 1. Bundesliga

Yes it does' date=' and Hunt played a great game. Who needs Ozil aye. :D The Germans looked very good all over and Marin coming on will change any game. What's funny, and according to this thread was, watching in America, Warren Barton summed up by saying the Italian league is stronger than the German, for some particular thing, not of a comparison of the 2 teams. For that, they gave a Bremen win by majority. :)

Will refs behind the goals become more prominent in the future?[/quote']

I think at the moment is unquestionable that italian league is stronger than german league, maybe only the england league is stronger than italian's. You saw how easily inter beat bayern. But not only inter did. Fiorentina too, if were not for ovrebo's wrong refereeing. And fiorentina ended up 11th. That's not to say Serie A is the best league, the most beautiful, difficult, entertaining or what. How many world class players play in germany excepted ribery, robben, and schweinsteiger, if he confirms himself at high performances? Ribery is the very one exception of a young world class player in the making (at that time) who actually chose to go playing in the bundensliga, robben not so much for example, it was just dismissed from the usually crowded real madrid. In the last ten years how many german teams got to the CL final?How many italian ones? Obviously, these are just partial statistics and they don't mean everything.

From what I heard on TV, the uefa index keeps count of other factors other than direct encounters, such as stadiums and other things the national soccer movements are 'made of' that I honestly can't remember, so you may be much better informed than me.

At the moment, the german national team would easily win over italian's and send them home beaten up. Also, german youth is stronger than italian's (aron hunt, marko marin, bargfrede, boenisch and on the other side just poli), and that's quite an index of the health of a national soccer movement, or a league.

But for now the comparison can't really be made outside the uefa index.

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Re: Riferimento: Re: Ratings Italian Serie A vs. German 1. Bundesliga

german youth is stronger than italian's (aron hunt' date=' marko marin, bargfrede, boenisch and on the other side just poli), and that's quite an index of the health of a national soccer movement, or a league.

But for now the comparison can't really be made outside the uefa index.[/quote']

Yeah, I agree that the German youths are better than the Italian ones. This is the result of the German FA pumping in moneys on academies and such. The WC 2010 was just a taste of something big. This was the first generation German youths who was a result of this project, I really can't wait how good the upcoming youths will be!

Back to the point; Italy don't ''only'' have Poli. There are several talented Italians players like Bonucci, Ranocchia, Sirigu, Candreva, Santon, Acuqafresca and Marlungo to name a few.

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Re: Riferimento: Re: Ratings Italian Serie A vs. German 1. Bundesliga

I think at the moment is unquestionable that italian league is stronger than german league' date=' maybe only the england league is stronger than italian's. You saw how easily inter beat bayern. But not only inter did. Fiorentina too, if were not for ovrebo's wrong refereeing. And fiorentina ended up 11th. That's not to say Serie A is the best league, the most beautiful, difficult, entertaining or what. How many world class players play in germany excepted ribery, robben, and schweinsteiger, if he confirms himself at high performances? Ribery is the very one exception of a young world class player in the making (at that time) who actually chose to go playing in the bundensliga, robben not so much for example, it was just dismissed from the usually crowded real madrid. In the last ten years how many german teams got to the CL final?How many italian ones? Obviously, these are just partial statistics and they don't mean everything.

From what I heard on TV, the uefa index keeps count of other factors other than direct encounters, such as stadiums and other things the national soccer movements are 'made of' that I honestly can't remember, so you may be much better informed than me.

At the moment, the german national team would easily win over italian's and send them home beaten up. Also, german youth is stronger than italian's (aron hunt, marko marin, bargfrede, boenisch and on the other side just poli), and that's quite an index of the health of a national soccer movement, or a league.

But for now the comparison can't really be made outside the uefa index.[/quote']

Sorry, but I can't take you seriously when you say that Boenisch is better than some Italian youngster. I really don't rate the Italian players that high, but I really think that many of them can reach the average level of Boenisch.

And refering your statement Inter beat Bayern/ Fiorentina beat Bayern, I can say the German league is way better as Bremen beat Genua. I don't rate the teams on only one match.

I agree that in Germany the amount of "world class players" is lower than in Italy. But regarding the current transfer window I see this changing. Actually I think the reason why now still more "world class players" play in Italy is the cash reason. But I also see this changing. So far the German taxes has been much higher than the English/Spanish/Italian ones. But this has changed or will change soon. And so many "world class players" can also consider playing in Germany.

If you take the last 10 years in your calculation I agree with you that the Italian teams has been better, but the lower you make the time interval the worse will be the Italian teams. Germany is getting better and has overhauled Italy already or will overhaul Italy this year.

However I agree with you that the German youth may be stonger than the Italian one due to the fact that Germany has been poor in the years 1998, 2000 and 2004 and something need to be done, while Italy won the WC with old players 2006 and now realized that the old players won't be able to repeat their achievements.

Sorry for any inaccuracies and mistakes as it has been late and I've been out to "celebrate" VfB Stuttgart's victory against Bratislava. :P

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Riferimento: Re: Riferimento: Re: Ratings Italian Serie A vs. German 1. Bundesliga

Yeah' date=' I agree that the German youths are better than the Italian ones. This is the result of the German FA pumping in moneys on academies and such. The WC 2010 was just a taste of something big. This was the first generation German youths who was a result of this project, I really can't wait how good the upcoming youths will be!

Back to the point; Italy don't ''only'' have Poli. There are several talented Italians players like Bonucci, Ranocchia, Sirigu, Candreva, Santon, Acuqafresca and Marlungo to name a few.[/quote']

I was actually just comparing the youth of the two teams playing in champions league: werder and sampdoria; don't remember if marilungo was convocated, actually, i forgot of him from sampdoria.

Luckily in italy some possible champ does come out: think of santon, balotelli, ranocchia..but it's quite soon say..

I felt exactly the same sensation before the german youths' exhibition at the wc: more to come, they'll probably rule in the next future

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