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Papal Visit To Britain


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Pope Benedict XVI today arrived in Scotland ahead of the first ever Papal state visit to Britain and with so much controversy surrounding the issue, I wondered what people though about the issue.

Is it right that the tax payer should have to partially fund his trip seeing as he is first and foremost a religious figure?

Have the Catholic church done enough in relation to the whole child abuse issue?

Post your views here but remember to be civil when speaking and respect the beliefs of others.;)

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Re: Papal Visit To Britain

I'm very much against it being a state visit for a number of reasons. I've got no problem with him coming to the country as the leader of a religious group that's well represented here, but when you start talking about him as a head of state then you surely have to take into account the state and organisation he represents have quite the record. They've failed to properly address child abuse cases within it's own organisation, deny the right to abortion, promote segregated education, oppose distribution of condoms and oppose equal rights for *** and transgender people. Not to mention it's reluctance to sign human rights treaties with many other states which has a negative effect on their citizens. I don't believe for one minute that the head of any other, more typical state would be received in this manner if they had this sort of back catalogue.

I could waffle on about being vehemently opposed to how the Vatican is dressed up as a state purely increase it's International influence as well, but I fear I'd be here all night.

Other than that let them do what they want within reason, good luck to them.

Edit: G ay is sensored, seriously? I call shenanigans, ever heard of equal rights SM? :D

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Re: Papal Visit To Britain

I don't care if he comes to visit but i do care about 2 things related to it:

1. Why should we, the British public who are largely Athiest, have to pay for him to come? Why not make the Catholics pay for him? As my friend said earlier today "It's like going into a shop, telling everyone in the shop to give you enough money to buy a box of Celebrations, and then eating them all yourself"

2. Why does it have to be on the news so much? I can understand that some of his views could be seen as controversial in this day and age, but is a visit really a news headline? The simple answer should be no in my opinion

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Re: Papal Visit To Britain

I don't care if he comes to visit but i do care about 2 things related to it:

1. Why should we' date=' the British public who are largely Athiest,[/b'] have to pay for him to come? Why not make the Catholics pay for him? As my friend said earlier today "It's like going into a shop, telling everyone in the shop to give you enough money to buy a box of Celebrations, and then eating them all yourself"

2. Why does it have to be on the news so much? I can understand that some of his views could be seen as controversial in this day and age, but is a visit really a news headline? The simple answer should be no in my opinion

Statistically not true. At the last census less than 15% of people chose no religion. There are many sticks with which to beat this visit and it's an entirely fair, and in my view correct, opinion that the taxpayer shouldn't be having to fork out for the Pope to be over here, but this is a bit of a fallacy I'm afraid.

As for #2, this is the 24 hour news culture in which we reside now. Anything remotely newsworthy and especially an event such as this that can be spun as historic will be over reported hugely. It's also a happy coincidence for NI that they have a convenient distraction from the phone tapping scandal, and Murdoch's empire controls a lot of the news we digest now. They'll be going to town on it simply to keep Coulson et al out of the news as much as possible.

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Re: Papal Visit To Britain

Statistically not true. At the last census less than 15% of people chose no religion. There are many sticks with which to beat this visit and it's an entirely fair' date=' and in my view correct, opinion that the taxpayer shouldn't be having to fork out for the Pope to be over here, but this is a bit of a fallacy I'm afraid.

As for #2, this is the 24 hour news culture in which we reside now. Anything remotely newsworthy and especially an event such as this that can be spun as historic will be over reported hugely. It's also a happy coincidence for NI that they have a convenient distraction from the phone tapping scandal, and Murdoch's empire controls a lot of the news we digest now.[/quote']

Yes i suppose, but then again most of those are other religions (including Jedi :P) rather than Catholic. According to my source only around 8/9% (at last count) were Roman Catholic, which is definitely not enough to force the rest of the country to fork out..

Oh well, C'est la Vie

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Re: Papal Visit To Britain

Does the Pope really need to visit us though? I mean is it worth us forking out money just for him to visit for a few days? :o

I don't think he needs to go anywhere as such but I'm sure it's a worthwhile visit for many of Britain's Catholics. I just object him receiving a state visit and it being partly funded by the taxpayer.

Yes i suppose' date=' but then again most of those are other religions (including Jedi :P) rather than Catholic. According to my source only around 8/9% (at last count) were Roman Catholic, which is definitely not enough to force the rest of the country to fork out..

Oh well, C'est la Vie[/quote']

It's difficult to find the figures for as it was lumped in with Christian on most reports of the census data, rather than broken down into different denominations and I'm far too idle to find anything more in depth. It's a reasonable objection and I can sympathise with the viewpoint, especially when austerity measures are being put in place, but on a purely personal level I'd have no problem with it being a state visit based on that criteria. I'll avoid the temptation to go off on another rant about it though as I've already made clear my objections further up the thread. ;)

Actually I heard it is not officially a state visit but is being treated like one.

It's a state visit, he was officially invited by the Queen.

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Re: Papal Visit To Britain

The reason why hes coming is cos hes the pope and us catholics do wanna see him :) and yes he should be al over the news hes the head of the catholic church and the most holyist man on earth :rolleyes:

I don't really think any sensible person has a problem with him coming in general. I do however think the question of whether the taxpayer should be contributing to his little jaunt is a fair one, whether it's being questioned by people who are concerned about some of the Vatican's more extreme and controversial views, teachings and abhorrent recent human rights record or by those who point out the questionable relevance (or lack thereof) to the majority of the citizens of this country. And there's the fact that we're paying for this expense at a time when we're about to experience savage cuts and thousands will find themselves out of work and struggling.

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Re: Papal Visit To Britain

I don't really think any sensible person has a problem with him coming in general. I do however think the question of whether the taxpayer should be contributing to his little jaunt is a fair one' date=' whether it's being questioned by people who are concerned about some of the Vatican's more extreme and controversial views, teachings and abhorrent recent human rights record or by those who point out the questionable relevance (or lack thereof) to the majority of the citizens of this country. And there's the fact that we're paying for this expense at a time when we're about to experience savage cuts and thousands will find themselves out of work and struggling.[/quote']

I agree with u that the tax payer shudnt need to pay for the popes visist.

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Re: Papal Visit To Britain

First of all, I am not a Catholic nor am I a Christian, but I am not an athiest and do belong to a religion. So my viewpoint is purely of a person that doesn't particularly understand certain parts of Christianity but does understand the concept of religion.

I go to a Catholic sixth form dowm here in London and we had an assembly on Wednesday about the Papal visit and it was talked about as a very important religious leader is coming to the UK and that it was all positives, which is what most people I have heard talk about it, say. Now I'm not sure about the child abuse stuff, but things like denying abortion, contraception and homosexual relationships are surely issues that stem way, way back through history so I doubt it is anything new. The only difference between now and before is that it is generally accepted within the Western world because civil law allows it, so people are now wondering why there are people within that society still opposing it.

The way I see it, if something is written in the Bible saying that something is not allowed (and by if, I mean I don't know whether it is or isn't) then it shouldn't change to please a small minority of people because a) It is the word of God and B) a religious leader knows more about religion than most people's religious knowledge put together.

The Pope is here to preach Christianity and any allegations put against him are just allegations until solid evidence proves he has done something wrong.

I do apologise if I have offended anyone but like I said before, my opinion is that of someone with a limited understanding of the finer points of Catholic, and even Christian, faith.

I do agree though that the British taxpayer shouldn't be stumping up money to pay for the visit. It should be Vatican City that should be paying for it, in my opinion.

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Re: Papal Visit To Britain

First of all' date=' I am not a Catholic nor am I a Christian, but I am not an athiest and do belong to a religion. So my viewpoint is purely of a person that doesn't particularly understand certain parts of Christianity but does understand the concept of religion.

I go to a Catholic sixth form dowm here in London and we had an assembly on Wednesday about the Papal visit and it was talked about as a very important religious leader is coming to the UK and that it was all positives, which is what most people I have heard talk about it, say. Now I'm not sure about the child abuse stuff, but things like denying abortion, contraception and homosexual relationships are surely issues that stem way, way back through history so I doubt it is anything new. The only difference between now and before is that it is generally accepted within the Western world because civil law allows it, so people are now wondering why there are people within that society still opposing it.

The way I see it, if something is written in the Bible saying that something is not allowed (and by if, I mean I don't know whether it is or isn't) then it shouldn't change to please a small minority of people because a) It is the word of God and B) a religious leader knows more about religion than most people's religious knowledge put together.

The Pope is here to preach Christianity and any allegations put against him are just allegations until solid evidence proves he has done something wrong.

I do apologise if I have offended anyone but like I said before, my opinion is that of someone with a limited understanding of the finer points of Catholic, and even Christian, faith.

I do agree though that the British taxpayer shouldn't be stumping up money to pay for the visit. It should be Vatican City that should be paying for it, in my opinion.[/quote']

I would absolutely not contest the The Pope's, nor anybody else's for that matter, right to come to Britain and preach about the Catholic Church's view on condoms, abortion, segregated education and homosexuality until his hearts content, so long as the Vatican fund it using their own already considerably swelled coffers. However, when it becomes a state visit which I have in part funded I think all those elements become part of the public interest. Were this a 'real' state that he was representing, rather than a convenient 'accidental state' (that is to say that in no real, tangible way is the Vatican actually a state), then would the Queen be as willing to extend the courtesy to a figurehead who had such well publicised and divisive views on these issues? I very much doubt it and thus I find it all a bit distasteful.

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Re: Papal Visit To Britain

I don't care if he comes to visit but i do care about 2 things related to it:

1. Why should we' date=' the British public who are largely Athiest, have to pay for him to come? Why not make the Catholics pay for him? As my friend said earlier today "It's like going into a shop, telling everyone in the shop to give you enough money to buy a box of Celebrations, and then eating them all yourself"

2. Why does it have to be on the news so much? I can understand that some of his views could be seen as controversial in this day and age, but is a visit really a news headline? The simple answer should be no in my opinion[/quote']

WHEN YOU GET SOMEONE LIKE SHIEKH SUDAIS OR SHIEKH SHURAIM THERE IS NOT AS MUCH FUSS AS THERE IS WHEN THEY COME, THEY HAVE GOT BUEATIFUL VOICES. THEY ARE ROLE MODELS TO ALL MUSLIMS.

LISTEN TO SHEIKH SUDAIS AND SHURAIM. THESE ARE TALENTS OR GIFTS GIVEN BY ALLAH SWT (GOD)

Shiekh Abdur-Rahman-As-Sudais

Shiekh Saud-As-Shuraim

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I would absolutely not contest the The Pope's' date=' nor anybody else's for that matter, right to come to Britain and preach about the Catholic Church's view on condoms, abortion, segregated education and homosexuality until his hearts content, so long as the Vatican fund it using their own already considerably swelled coffers. However, when it becomes a state visit which I have in part funded I think all those elements become part of the public interest. Were this a 'real' state that he was representing, rather than a convenient 'accidental state' (that is to say that in no real, tangible way is the Vatican actually a state), then would the Queen be as willing to extend the courtesy to a figurehead who had such well publicised and divisive views on these issues? I very much doubt it and thus I find it all a bit distasteful.[/quote']

Despite your personal views as to its worthiness the Vatican or holy See is indeed categorised by international law as a city state and is one of the European microstates along with Liechtenstein, Monaco, Andorra, and Malta. Therefore should be afforded the rights and the UK reserves for other visiting heads of state. And your observation about the Queens role could perhaps be addressed with a quick glance at some of the public funded state visits to the UK over the last ten years including

8-10 November 2005 The President of the People's Republic of China

13-15 March 2007 The President of the Republic of Ghana

30 Oct - 1 Nov 2007 The King of Saudi Arabia

I have no doubt that you to would agree, that considering the three examples attitudes to human rights in general and in Ghana’s and Saudi Arabia’s case homosexuality in particular, where G ay sexual relations are a crime and punishments range from prison, fines, deportation, or even the death penalty, her majesty is quite used to shaking hands with the leaders of the worlds most dubious states...Perhaps there is a strong moral case that no tax payers money should be spent on any visiting head of state unless they their countries views and attitudes are in keeping with our own? at least the Royal mall would be very quiet ..I don’t recall the same levels of public outrage when the Chinese or Saudis came to town, so are we seeing a mass out break of hypocrisy? Personally its my opinion that we are witnessing a concerted effort by a liberal minded minority to discredit the Catholic church and Christianity as a whole.

Don’t get me wrong I am as disgusted as anyone about the Catholic church’s handling of the vile acts of child abuse carried out by a minority of their clergy, undoubtedly such is the depravity of these crimes the church should be working alongside law enforcement authorities around the world to bring the guilty ones to justice. Likewise I fundamentally disagree with the Roman Catholic church over mans relationship with God, abortion, contraception, homosexuality, the afterlife, the worshipping of saints or the veneration of Mary.

Nevertheless I am saddened there has been little or no mention in the press of the Catholic church’s wonderful efforts around the world to feed, cloth, shelter, support and give solace to the most vulnerable people in society or the acknowledgement of the lasting joy to millions of my fellow Britons that the Popes visit has brought them.

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Sure it’s recognised as such, but it’s no coincidence that countries like Liechtenstein aren’t surrounded by such controversy and scepticism. By positioning themselves as such the Vatican leaves itself open to criticism that they‘re using this position purely to amplify it‘s international influence, and particularly when being invited for a State Visit as a luxury of this.

The point on other State Visits is a fair one, I must have been on autopilot when I typed that as I remember the Saudi one particularly clearly. In fairness to Kufuor his record was much better than the other two, but Hu Jintao and King Abdullah were both protested against during their state visits, correctly in my opinion, just as The Pope is being. Tax payers money shouldn’t have been spent on those two either and while I’m sure that there is an agenda on behalf of some against the Catholic Church, it’s natural that this one is going to attract much more attention as it’s received a huge amounts of coverage compared to the others.

I haven’t watched or read enough news over the course of the visit to have an informed opinion of the coverage. It’s a funny quirk that people against the visit are adamant that the coverage has been too positive and shied away from discussing the more negative issues in full. Certainly I’d agree that perhaps the likes of The Guardian positions itself naturally against the visit and doesn’t address the positives of what the Church do in full, and it’s beyond doubt that they do a lot of positive work, but equally they’d probably suggest they do this as a balance, as there will be coverage that does the exact opposite.

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The Guardian positions itself naturally against the visit and doesn’t address the positives of what the Church do in full' date=' and it’s beyond doubt that they do a lot of positive work, but equally they’d probably suggest they do this as a balance, as there will be coverage that does the exact opposite.[/quote']

Hmmm.... perhaps not the best of examples, as personally I’m not sure that the term “balanced’’ could ever be applied to the Guardian newspaper. In fact i would go as far to say that the it has traditionally lent itself ( along with the BBC ) as a willing vehicle to the atheist / anti Christian movement in their 10/ 12 year long assault on the freedom of the worship is this country. It has built a notorious reputation for its onslaught, on not so much religion but against the Christian religion. From attacks on the sanctity of marriage, publishing blasphemous cartoons of Christ,mocking the gospel or belittling Christian festivals and traditions to actively promoting Islam it has at the same time pursued its own and the previous governments ( remember New Labour did not do God ? ) insidious political agenda of the advancement of a secular UK.

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Hmmm.... perhaps not the best of examples' date=' as personally I’m not sure that the term “balanced’’ could ever be applied to the Guardian newspaper. In fact i would go as far to say that the it has traditionally lent itself ( along with the BBC ) as a willing vehicle to the atheist / anti Christian movement in their 10/ 12 year long assault on the freedom of the worship is this country. It has built a notorious reputation for its onslaught, on not so much religion but against the Christian religion. From attacks on the sanctity of marriage, publishing blasphemous cartoons of Christ,mocking the gospel or belittling Christian festivals and traditions to actively promoting Islam it has at the same time pursued its own and the previous governments ( remember New Labour did not do God ? ) insidious political agenda of the advancement of a secular UK.[/quote']

That was kind of my point...That yes they unashamedly take their position as pro-secular, but equally there are publications that do very little in the way of religious criticism, so perhaps they'd argue that what they do is balance. Neither one is perfect obviously, but then I'm not sure you'll find many news outlets without an agenda in this country.

As an aside from what I've seen I thought the BBC's coverage was very fair, the fact that people on both sides of the divide are complaining that they've been too pro/anti Catholicism is probably testament to that.

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