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Ashley Cole vs. Maicon: Why is there a 2 point gap?


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Ashley Cole vs. Maicon: Why is there a 2 point gap?  

  1. 1.

    • Ashley Cole rated higher than Maicon
    • Maicon rated higher than Ashley Cole
    • Ashley Cole and Maicon should have the same rating


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This issue finally has to be addressed. Both of these players do the same job(albeit on opposite sides of the pitch) and are very successful in doing so for two of the top clubs in Europe, with both also playing for two of the best international teams in the world. Maicon is renowned as the world's best right back while Ashley is generally known as the best left back in the world. The question I ask is; what justification is there for a two point gap between these two players?

Ashley Cole-Aged 29. One of the first names on the team sheet for club and country. Club are the English champions. International team is one of the best in the world. Makes explosive forward runs, regularly chips in with goals and assists. Is defensively immense, is hardly ever overcame by an opponent. Has tapped Cheryl Cole.

Douglas Maicon-Aged 29. One of the first names on the teamsheet for club and country. Club are the Italian and European champions. International team is one of the best in the world. Makes explosive forward runs, regularly chips in with goals and assists. Is defensively strong, although not quite up to Ashley's standard. Was raped by Bale in the Champions League.

To summarise, the only difference between these two players is that Ashley is a left back, Maicon is a right back. Maicon won the Champions League last season, Cole didn't. Cole is better than Maicon defensively. Gareth Bale bamboozled Maicon against Inter in the Champions League, Ashley Cole has bamboozled Cheryl Cole.

Really, having won the Champions League is no reason for Maicon to be 2 points higher than Ashley Cole. Especially when Ash is a better defender. The only other thing that could possibly be taken into account is that Brazil are(arguably) stronger than England.

What do you think their ratings should be?

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Re: Ashley Cole vs. Maicon: Why is there a 2 point gap?

95+ - A player who has proved his class both on the domestic and continental or international stage.

Cole hasn't won the Champions League or the World Cup which limits his rating an awful lot, particularly as a defender. Maicon has both and is therefore justified in his higher rating. I'd say giving him the 96 was rash though, especially considering players like Lucio didn't rise.

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Re: Ashley Cole vs. Maicon: Why is there a 2 point gap?

This issue finally has to be addressed. Both of these players do the same job(albeit on opposite sides of the pitch)

No. Explanations will follow.

and are very successful in doing so for two of the top clubs in Europe

yeah' date=' but Maicon is a little more succesful with his club

with both also playing for two of the best international teams in the world.

Nope. Only Maicon is playing for one of the best international teams in the world. Cole is playing for a team that everyone outside of the island is only laughing about.

Maicon is renowned as the world's best right back while Ashley is generally known as the best left back in the world.

Again' date=' also wrong. Maicon is considered the best RB by many (with Lahm and Ramos following, and then Alves with a bit larger gap), while Cole isn't rated that highly outside England. Others like Evra and again Lahm, and maybe even Zanetti to a certain extent are all recognized as better / equally good LBs than him.

The question I ask is; what justification is there for a two point gap between these two players?

Thou have asked, thou shall receive an answer...

Ashley Cole-Aged 29. One of the first names on the team sheet for club and country.

Wow' date=' what an achievement. He's an undisputed starter in an international team where his biggest rival is who? Baines? Bridge? I'm sure I could train a monkey to become a better LB than those 2.

Club are the English champions.

Yeahhh, finally something that is true. However, Chelsea haven't won that much before, and went out of the CL rather soon (by their standards) quite often, albeit it was unlucky sometimes (like Barca 2 seasons ago), I'll admit that.

International team is one of the best in the world.

Well' date=' second time you try to use that as your argument, but again. FAIL! Watch something else besides English TV. Read something else besides English press. Talk to someone else besides English fans. Hell, just check England's recent results at major tournaments. Look at the FIFA team ranking. Hell, there are probably a million ways to find out that ENGLAND IS NOT A TOP NATION IN FOOTBALL. They simply aren't.

Makes explosive forward runs, regularly chips in with goals and assists. Is defensively immense, is hardly ever overcame by an opponent.

That's something I can't deny. However, I think that Maicon is even more explosive, and is more dangerous in front of goal, and is a great passer, too. And if you call Cole defensively immense, I must admit - as a non-native English speaker - I don't know a word in English that would describe Maicon's defensive "immensness". Something like god-like would be an understatement then.

Has tapped Cheryl Cole.

Wow. Give him a 99 then. Or even a 199. Just because he managed to be married to one of the handful of semi-decent looking English woman (a.k.a. a non-freckle-face non-fat non-butterface-but-also-butterbody woman)' date=' he must rise. Besides, do you know who Maicon managed to 'tap' in his life. Oh, I forgot, that isn't daily theme of the Sun.

Douglas Maicon-Aged 29. One of the first names on the teamsheet for club and country. Club are the Italian and European champions. International team is one of the best in the world. Makes explosive forward runs, regularly chips in with goals and assists.

All true so far.

Is defensively strong' date=' although not quite up to Ashley's standard.[/quote']

But I disagree here.

Was raped by Bale in the Champions League.

And I guess that's the argument for your statement above. You deserve some credit for that' date=' because it's not like Cole has never been ripped apart by anyone in his whole career so far. Oh, besides Müller in the WC. And others. And tbh, I don't find it too bad to be defeated by one of the most current in-form players (who even seems to have had the best day so far in his whole career)

To summarise

[...]

What do you think their ratings should be?

To summarise:

Even though this whole post sounded like Cole-bashing, I think Cole's rating is fair. But so is Maicon's. And so is Evra's. And so is Lahm's. Even though the latter could go/have gone higher if he moves/had moved to a bigger club or if Bayern had been/will be more successful in CL.

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Re: Ashley Cole vs. Maicon: Why is there a 2 point gap?

Wow. Give him a 99 then. Or even a 199. Just because he managed to be married to one of the handful of semi-decent looking English woman (a.k.a. a non-freckle-face non-fat non-butterface-but-also-butterbody woman)' date=' he must rise.[/quote']

hey! nobody takes the **** out of our cheyl!:mad:

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Re: Ashley Cole vs. Maicon: Why is there a 2 point gap?

I think Cole will rise if Chelsea win the CL. Also you seem doubt Maicons rating due to him being made to look a fool by Bale, if you judged people on how they play against Bale then Phil Neville must be the best full back in the world. However I can see where you are coming from.

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Re: Ashley Cole vs. Maicon: Why is there a 2 point gap?

No. Explanations will follow.

yeah' date=' but Maicon is a little more succesful with his club

Nope. Only Maicon is playing for one of the best international teams in the world. Cole is playing for a team that everyone outside of the island is only laughing about.

Again, also wrong. Maicon is considered the best RB by many (with Lahm and Ramos following, and then Alves with a bit larger gap), while Cole isn't rated that highly outside England. Others like Evra and again Lahm, and maybe even Zanetti to a certain extent are all recognized as better / equally good LBs than him.

Thou have asked, thou shall receive an answer...

Wow, what an achievement. He's an undisputed starter in an international team where his biggest rival is who? Baines? Bridge? I'm sure I could train a monkey to become a better LB than those 2.

Yeahhh, finally something that is true. However, Chelsea haven't won that much before, and went out of the CL rather soon (by their standards) quite often, albeit it was unlucky sometimes (like Barca 2 seasons ago), I'll admit that.

Well, second time you try to use that as your argument, but again. FAIL! Watch something else besides English TV. Read something else besides English press. Talk to someone else besides English fans. Hell, just check England's recent results at major tournaments. Look at the FIFA team ranking. Hell, there are probably a million ways to find out that ENGLAND IS NOT A TOP NATION IN FOOTBALL. They simply aren't.

That's something I can't deny. However, I think that Maicon is even more explosive, and is more dangerous in front of goal, and is a great passer, too. And if you call Cole defensively immense, I must admit - as a non-native English speaker - I don't know a word in English that would describe Maicon's defensive "immensness". Something like god-like would be an understatement then.

Wow. Give him a 99 then. Or even a 199. Just because he managed to be married to one of the handful of semi-decent looking English woman (a.k.a. a non-freckle-face non-fat non-butterface-but-also-butterbody woman), he must rise. Besides, do you know who Maicon managed to 'tap' in his life. Oh, I forgot, that isn't daily theme of the Sun.

All true so far.

But I disagree here.

And I guess that's the argument for your statement above. You deserve some credit for that, because it's not like Cole has never been ripped apart by anyone in his whole career so far. Oh, besides Müller in the WC. And others. And tbh, I don't find it too bad to be defeated by one of the most current in-form players (who even seems to have had the best day so far in his whole career)

To summarise:

Even though this whole post sounded like Cole-bashing, I think Cole's rating is fair. But so is Maicon's. And so is Evra's. And so is Lahm's. Even though the latter could go/have gone higher if he moves/had moved to a bigger club or if Bayern had been/will be more successful in CL.[/quote']

Second German poster I've seen today with a seeming vendetta against anything English. No class in picking apart a post like that with an underlying agenda. I find it quite offensive.

Back on topic, the gap should be one rating, based on Inter's champions league success. (Chelsea were double winners after-all).

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Re: Ashley Cole vs. Maicon: Why is there a 2 point gap?

To those who think Phil's post is offensive really take a look at yourself and how you view England as a footballing nation. We really aren't great :o In fact, we overachieve and considering how little we achieve, that's saying something.

I disagree on Cole not being the best left-back in the world. Evra has been poor by his standards this season, Lahm is predominantly a right-back and Cole's attacking threat is far more potent than Zanetti's.

I definitely think Ashley justifies his 94 and if Chelsea win the Champions League then he should have a decent shot at 95 as winning the Champions League is the only reason why Maicon rose to 96.

There is no doubt however that Maicon is the better player. I'd rank them pretty equal defensively, Maicon is much better going forward and he's been much more successful for both club and country. Don't think he's quite living up to his 96 at the moment though.

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Re: Ashley Cole vs. Maicon: Why is there a 2 point gap?

Cole hasn't won the Champions League or the World Cup which limits his rating an awful lot' date=' particularly as a defender. Maicon has both and is therefore justified in his higher rating. I'd say giving him the 96 was rash though, especially considering players like Lucio didn't rise.[/quote']

John Terry springs to mind here as a defender who has never won the Champions League or World Cup yet still held a 96 rating for a good while, personally I think defenders should max out at 95. I think Cole is equally as important as Terry to Chelsea's success.

No. Explanations will follow.

yeah' date=' but Maicon is a little more succesful with his club

[b']Yep with that Champions League under his belt, I mentioned that.[/b]

Nope. Only Maicon is playing for one of the best international teams in the world. Cole is playing for a team that everyone outside of the island is only laughing about.

I live in Scotland(albeit I'm English) so the pro-English media coverage isn't as vast, but I see what you're getting at about England being overhyped. By "one of the best international teams in the world" I meant that we're one of the top 10 teams in the world, which we are, just. There's no denying that.

Again, also wrong. Maicon is considered the best RB by many (with Lahm and Ramos following, and then Alves with a bit larger gap), while Cole isn't rated that highly outside England. Others like Evra and again Lahm, and maybe even Zanetti to a certain extent are all recognized as better / equally good LBs than him.

I don't see why people outside of England would think that Evra is as good as Cole tbh. Evra's not really been himself as of late whereas Cole has been consistently brilliant for years now. I do agree that Lahm is excellent but I think Cole just edges it. Ramos and Alves certainly aren't as well rounded as Maicon, Lahm or Cole defensively.

Thou have asked, thou shall receive an answer...

Wow, what an achievement. He's an undisputed starter in an international team where his biggest rival is who? Baines? Bridge? I'm sure I could train a monkey to become a better LB than those 2.

It's not Cole's fault that we don't have a backup full back who is as good as Alves. And if Alves were to be English and a left back, I still think Cole would get the nod. And Baines isn't so bad ;)

Yeahhh, finally something that is true. However, Chelsea haven't won that much before, and went out of the CL rather soon (by their standards) quite often, albeit it was unlucky sometimes (like Barca 2 seasons ago), I'll admit that.

In the last two years Inter have won two league titles, a domestic cup and the Champions League. In the last two years Chelsea have won the league and two FA cups with reasonably tougher competition. The CL win is all they have on Chelsea really.

Well, second time you try to use that as your argument, but again. FAIL! Watch something else besides English TV. Read something else besides English press. Talk to someone else besides English fans. Hell, just check England's recent results at major tournaments. Look at the FIFA team ranking. Hell, there are probably a million ways to find out that ENGLAND IS NOT A TOP NATION IN FOOTBALL. They simply aren't.

Posted a similar reply to this above.

That's something I can't deny. However, I think that Maicon is even more explosive, and is more dangerous in front of goal, and is a great passer, too. And if you call Cole defensively immense, I must admit - as a non-native English speaker - I don't know a word in English that would describe Maicon's defensive "immensness". Something like god-like would be an understatement then.

We'll have to agree to disagree here.

Wow. Give him a 99 then. Or even a 199. Just because he managed to be married to one of the handful of semi-decent looking English woman (a.k.a. a non-freckle-face non-fat non-butterface-but-also-butterbody woman), he must rise. Besides, do you know who Maicon managed to 'tap' in his life. Oh, I forgot, that isn't daily theme of the Sun.

Have you seen her? Give me someone nicer than her who Maicon has "tapped" and I'll eat my hat.

All true so far.

But I disagree here.

And I guess that's the argument for your statement above. You deserve some credit for that, because it's not like Cole has never been ripped apart by anyone in his whole career so far. Oh, besides Müller in the WC. And others. And tbh, I don't find it too bad to be defeated by one of the most current in-form players (who even seems to have had the best day so far in his whole career)

I can't think of one situation where Cole has been exploited anywhere near as much as Maicon was by Bale. Yes Bale is in great form but Maicon looked totally helpless.

To summarise:

Even though this whole post sounded like Cole-bashing, I think Cole's rating is fair. But so is Maicon's. And so is Evra's. And so is Lahm's. Even though the latter could go/have gone higher if he moves/had moved to a bigger club or if Bayern had been/will be more successful in CL.

If you feel Lahm could go higher then why not Cole? Stop being brainwashed by the German media :rolleyes:

I think Cole will rise if Chelsea win the CL. Also you seem doubt Maicons rating due to him being made to look a fool by Bale' date=' if you judged people on how they play against Bale then Phil Neville must be the best full back in the world. However I can see where you are coming from.[/quote']

That's not the only reason I have mate, and remember this isn't about Maicon's personal rating, it's about how he should be rated in relation to Cole. I think 95 is fair for both of them, Maicon had no real reason to rise last time. And is Phil Neville not the best full back in the world?

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Re: Ashley Cole vs. Maicon: Why is there a 2 point gap?

To those who think Phil's post is offensive really take a look at yourself and how you view England as a footballing nation. We really aren't great :o In fact' date=' we overachieve and considering how little we achieve, that's saying something.

I disagree on Cole not being the best left-back in the world. Evra has been poor by his standards this season, Lahm is predominantly a right-back and Cole's attacking threat is far more potent than Zanetti's.

I definitely think Ashley justifies his 94 and if Chelsea win the Champions League then he should have a decent shot at 95 as winning the Champions League is the only reason why Maicon rose to 96.

There is no doubt however that Maicon is the better player. I'd rank them pretty equal defensively, Maicon is much better going forward and he's been much more successful for both club and country. Don't think he's quite living up to his 96 at the moment though.[/quote']

Lol I wasn't offended because he had a bad word to say about the English national team. It veered off footballing matters, which suggests it wasn't just about England as a 'footballing nation' but a bit more personal.

I think I have a balanced view of the English national team thank you very much, I sat through the World Cup and it doesn't take a genius to see how poor we really were/still are. I don't really see your justification but there we go. This was supposed to be a debate about Cole and Maicon not England (who brought England into this?).

That said I agree Cole has been far better than Evra (coming from someone who prefers Utd to Chelsea).

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Re: Ashley Cole vs. Maicon: Why is there a 2 point gap?

Lol I wasn't offended because he had a bad word to say about the English national team. It veered off footballing matters' date=' which suggests it wasn't just about England as a 'footballing nation' but a bit more personal.[/quote']

I don't think it did. I think it was just a bit crude and abrupt (Phil's style :P) and displayed an underlying hatred that we have lovely women like Cheryl Cole over here ;)

I think I have a balanced view of the English national team thank you very much, I sat through the World Cup and it doesn't take a genius to see how poor we really were/still are. I don't really see your justification but there we go. This was supposed to be a debate about Cole and Maicon not England (who brought England into this?).

Because a major part of the OP's argument was that both played for top class national sides. The fact is, they don't. Brazil are light years ahead of us. Since Cole is also behind Maicon in terms of club achievements I think his poll should be pretty null and void. The question in the title as to whether there's a 2 point gap in between them is still valid but I gave my opinion on that matter earlier in the thread :)

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Re: Ashley Cole vs. Maicon: Why is there a 2 point gap?

I don't think it did. I think it was just a bit crude and abrupt (Phil's style :P) and displayed an underlying hatred that we have lovely women like Cheryl Cole over here ;)

Because a major part of the OP's argument was that both played for top class national sides. The fact is' date=' they don't. Brazil are light years ahead of us. Since Cole is also behind Maicon in terms of club achievements I think his poll should be pretty null and void. The question in the title as to whether there's a 2 point gap in between them is still valid but I gave my opinion on that matter earlier in the thread :)[/quote']

Ok fair enough. I'm still not totally convinced about the attitudes expressed but I'll assume you know what you're talking about (don't mean to sound sarcastic if it does :P).

Regarding Maicon's greater success, it really is just the Champions League (just he says). As I said I can understand a rating difference of one for this.

Regarding the international issue are Brazil really light years ahead of us? Not for one moment am I trying to suggest England can even be called a 'team' atm but I wasn't really impressed by Brazil either (not sure they took their best squad to the world cup but that's another point). Whilst I'm not sure whether the standing/ performances of Country they represent is always that important anyway (there are plenty of examples of World-Class players playing for countries of modest reputation and not exactly setting the world alight with them but doing it on a domestic stage).

All I'm saying is Cole seems to be suffering from association with the English National Team from what I've read here.

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Re: Ashley Cole vs. Maicon: Why is there a 2 point gap?

Cole hasn't won the Champions League or the World Cup which limits his rating an awful lot' date=' particularly as a defender. Maicon has both and is therefore justified in his higher rating. I'd say giving him the 96 was rash though, especially considering players like Lucio didn't rise.[/quote']

Are you sure Maicon has won the World Cup? Wasn't Cafu right-back in 2002?

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Re: Ashley Cole vs. Maicon: Why is there a 2 point gap?

Are you sure Maicon has won the World Cup? Wasn't Cafu right-back in 2002?

You're right' date=' this is hastily edited... :P

Regarding Maicon's greater success, it really is just the Champions League (just he says). As I said I can understand a rating difference of one for this.

It might just be the Champions League, but that's a biggy in SM's big book of ratings.

Regarding the international issue are Brazil really light years ahead of us? Not for one moment am I trying to suggest England can even be called a 'team' atm but I wasn't really impressed by Brazil either (not sure they took their best squad to the world cup but that's another point). Whilst I'm not sure whether the standing/ performances of Country they represent is always that important anyway (there are plenty of examples of World-Class players playing for countries of modest reputation and not exactly setting the world alight with them but doing it on a domestic stage).

Honestly? Yes :o I saw them play Ukraine recently in conditions that probably favoured Ukraine. Brazil's 2nd team played them off the park in a performance better than anything I've seen from England since the World Cup qualifiers. Their players are much better technically and they work better together as a team. As for your second point I'll write you out a list of 95+ players in SM and whether they have won the CL or WC. Bear in mind it's much easier for an attacking player to get a high rating.

Iker Casillas - CL, WC

Julio Cesar - CL, WC

Gianluigi Buffon - WC

Douglas Maicon - CL

Nemanja Vidic - CL

Carles Puyol - CL, WC

John Terry - Neither

Rio Ferdinand - CL

Lionel Messi - CL

Cristiano Ronaldo - CL

Ricardo Kaka - CL, WC

Hernandez Xavi - CL, WC

Andres Iniesta - CL, WC

Wayne Rooney - CL

Cesc Fabregas - WC

Wesley Sneijder - CL

Michael Essien - Neither

Franck Ribery - Neither

Esteban Cambiasso - CL

Steven Gerrard - CL

Frank Lampard - Neither

Fernando Torres - WC

David Villa - WC

Samuel Eto'o - CL

Didier Drogba - Neither

Zlatan Ibrahimovic - Neither

Diego Milito - CL

Of the players with 'Neither', 4 are Chelsea players! I'd say Terry, Ribery and possibly Ibra may also be classed as overrated on their current ratings. My point is it's very difficult for any player to get 95+ without winning the CL or WC and it's even harder for defenders. You also get the argument, if Cole can rise to 95 whilst achieving neither, why can't Lahm?

All I'm saying is Cole seems to be suffering from association with the English National Team from what I've read here.

Being English actually seems to be of great benefit if you were being rated by SM. The fact that England never win anything may be holding him back ;)

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Re: Ashley Cole vs. Maicon: Why is there a 2 point gap?

You're right' date=' this is hastily edited... :P

It might just be the Champions League, but that's a biggy in SM's big book of ratings.

Honestly? Yes :o I saw them play Ukraine recently in conditions that probably favoured Ukraine. Brazil's 2nd team played them off the park in a performance better than anything I've seen from England since the World Cup qualifiers. Their players are much better technically and they work better together as a team. As for your second point I'll write you out a list of 95+ players in SM and whether they have won the CL or WC. Bear in mind it's much easier for an attacking player to get a high rating.

Iker Casillas - CL, WC

Julio Cesar - CL, WC

Gianluigi Buffon - WC

Douglas Maicon - CL

Nemanja Vidic - CL

Carles Puyol - CL, WC

John Terry - Neither

Rio Ferdinand - CL

Lionel Messi - CL

Cristiano Ronaldo - CL

Ricardo Kaka - CL, WC

Hernandez Xavi - CL, WC

Andres Iniesta - CL, WC

Wayne Rooney - CL

Cesc Fabregas - WC

Wesley Sneijder - CL

Michael Essien - Neither

Franck Ribery - Neither

Esteban Cambiasso - CL

Steven Gerrard - CL

Frank Lampard - Neither

Fernando Torres - WC

David Villa - WC

Samuel Eto'o - CL

Didier Drogba - Neither

Zlatan Ibrahimovic - Neither

Diego Milito - CL

Of the players with 'Neither', 4 are Chelsea players! I'd say Terry, Ribery and possibly Ibra may also be classed as overrated on their current ratings. My point is it's very difficult for any player to get 95+ without winning the CL or WC and it's even harder for defenders. You also get the argument, if Cole can rise to 95 whilst achieving neither, why can't Lahm?

Being English actually seems to be of great benefit if you were being rated by SM. The fact that England never win anything may be holding him back ;)[/quote']

You've made some good points. Your right attacking players are more likely to get the elite ratings, thought that after my post as the players I had in mind from modest nations with high ratings was that of Eto'o and Ibra. I would say of those that haven't won either however, all have made a champions league final at least (apart from Ibra?). When I said 'just' the champions league it was meant with some irony, a gap of one would be justified I feel because of this, said that from the start. So kind of in agreement there :P.

Just one thing I should have been clearer on though I'm not necessarily saying Cole should rise (now I look like I'm back-peddling :P). Seriously though I don't really have an issue with his 94 rating, I just think 95 would be more appropriate for Maicon (and 93 for Evra to set him apart from Cole).

My point regarding the international association is: isn't this a little redundant? I have no doubt you know what your talking about with Brazil and know more than me.

For Cole however, if he's performing so well for Chelsea does international football really matter that much, it doesn't for Eto'o? (no idea how he's doing with Cameroon so don't pick me up on that one 'cos i'm sure there's other examples) It's not as if Maicon has achieved much more Internationally than Cole, maybe some continental titles? So maybe I'm approaching this from the angle that Maicon's 96 has little to do with what he's done for Brazil, would I be wrong in saying this? So is this an important issue when saying he deserves to be rated 2 points higher or you understanding the disparity (which ever bracket you fall in).

Sorry if my point is laboured.

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Re: Ashley Cole vs. Maicon: Why is there a 2 point gap?

This issue finally has to be addressed. Both of these players do the same job(albeit on opposite sides of the pitch) and are very successful in doing so for two of the top clubs in Europe' date=' with both also playing for two of the best international teams in the world. Maicon is renowned as the world's best right back while Ashley is generally known as the best left back in the world. The question I ask is; what justification is there for a two point gap between these two players?

Ashley Cole-Aged 29. One of the first names on the team sheet for club and country. Club are the English champions. International team is one of the best in the world. Makes explosive forward runs, regularly chips in with goals and assists. Is defensively immense, is hardly ever overcame by an opponent. Has tapped Cheryl Cole.

Douglas Maicon-Aged 29. One of the first names on the teamsheet for club and country. Club are the Italian and European champions. International team is one of the best in the world. Makes explosive forward runs, regularly chips in with goals and assists. Is defensively strong, although not quite up to Ashley's standard. Was raped by Bale in the Champions League.

To summarise, the only difference between these two players is that Ashley is a left back, Maicon is a right back. Maicon won the Champions League last season, Cole didn't. Cole is better than Maicon defensively. Gareth Bale bamboozled Maicon against Inter in the Champions League, Ashley Cole has bamboozled Cheryl Cole.

Really, having won the Champions League is no reason for Maicon to be 2 points higher than Ashley Cole. Especially when Ash is a better defender. The only other thing that could possibly be taken into account is that Brazil are(arguably) stronger than England.

What do you think their ratings should be?[/quote']

couldn't agree more generally, but silverware wins it for maicon. i think with evra at 94 (which i think is fair) and maicon at 96 (despite detractors- like bale, lol, i still think is correct) - then it would make sense for cole to be 95 as he's better than evra, probably (pluses and minuses balanced on either side) about as good as maicon but without the CL to his name so 95 should be right.

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Re: Ashley Cole vs. Maicon: Why is there a 2 point gap?

Second German poster I've seen today with a seeming vendetta against anything English.

[...]

So you're probably talking about me. I want to point out clearly that I don't lead a personal vendetta against England.

The point is that someone opens such kind of thread at this time.

Though I also think that Cole shouldn't be rated higher there could have been chosen a far better moment to open such a thread. Maybe after Chelsea winning the league once again' date=' maybe after Chelsea reaching the CL final. But certainly not 4 months after England's miserable performance at the WC.

[list']

[*]Someone could open a thread demanding Ramos to rise after winning the WC, being current EC and WC holder and being regular for one of the best teams in the world (though Real should show this in league and in the CL once again).

[*]Someone could open a thread demanding Lahm to rise after being 3rd at WC, 2nd in CL, league champion and cup winner in the Bundesliga - a league that is getting stronger and stronger.

But asking now for Cole to rise is really strong stuff. Really, after this WC no higher rated player of the WC team should be in for a rise. And no one should demand a rise for one of these players. Especially as I don't think that they are able to blind out this bad performance by making ~12 league and ~4 CL matches.

Maybe you can view it the other way arround. Maicon IMO is in for a drop. Of course he had won the CL with Inter and that was the reason why he got the 96. But though Inter is an extraordinary team, it's still a team playing in a league, that isn't top class anymore. Serie A is getting weaker - just take a look at the UEFA country ranking. So IMO all the current 96 rated players in Italy need to play extraordinary just to keep their rating. With average performances they should drop. (And no, I don't lead a vendetta vs Serie A, either)

But as I still think Maicon is a better defender than Cole, he should be rated higher. So 94 Cole, 95 Maicon would be fair.

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Re: Ashley Cole vs. Maicon: Why is there a 2 point gap?

Again' date=' also wrong. Maicon is considered the best RB by many (with Lahm and Ramos following, and then Alves with a bit larger gap), while Cole isn't rated that highly outside England. Others like Evra and again Lahm, and maybe even Zanetti to a certain extent are all recognized as better / equally good LBs than him.

im sorry, but zanetti and evra are not as good as cole end of. lahm maybe but even then cole wins it. chelsea have no won the UCL fine but as a player he is better, why he isnt rated outside of england i do not know as i live here, but that is maybe down to stupidity. eg why people rave on about ozil when they have not seen him play while he was in germany.

And I guess that's the argument for your statement above. You deserve some credit for that, because it's not like Cole has never been ripped apart by anyone in his whole career so far. Oh, besides Müller in the WC. And others. And tbh, I don't find it too bad to be defeated by one of the most current in-form players (who even seems to have had the best day so far in his whole career)

i agree that bale destroying maicon was one game so not a valid point.

To summarise:

Even though this whole post sounded like Cole-bashing, I think Cole's rating is fair. But so is Maicon's. And so is Evra's. And so is Lahm's. Even though the latter could go/have gone higher if he moves/had moved to a bigger club or if Bayern had been/will be more successful in CL.

i think maicon is a good player, but 2 points better ?

if cole continues to impress i do not have a problem with maicon being 96 he is a very good player, but cole is better then evra ( even tho i maybe slightly biased towards united i still think that...) and he is 95 quality. 2 points between them ? not sure.

ok maicon is lucky enough to be brazillian but im sure cole would get into the team at LB if he was brazillian, ok he gets in because of no compeition but he can't help that !

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Re: Ashley Cole vs. Maicon: Why is there a 2 point gap?

You've made some good points. Your right attacking players are more likely to get the elite ratings' date=' thought that after my post as the players I had in mind from modest nations with high ratings was that of Eto'o and Ibra. I would say of those that haven't won either however, all have made a champions league final at least (apart from Ibra?). When I said 'just' the champions league it was meant with some irony, a gap of one would be justified I feel because of this, said that from the start. So kind of in agreement there :P.

[b']Just one thing I should have been clearer on though I'm not necessarily saying Cole should rise (now I look like I'm back-peddling :P). Seriously though I don't really have an issue with his 94 rating, I just think 95 would be more appropriate for Maicon (and 93 for Evra to set him apart from Cole). [/b]

My point regarding the international association is: isn't this a little redundant? I have no doubt you know what your talking about with Brazil and know more than me.

For Cole however, if he's performing so well for Chelsea does international football really matter that much, it doesn't for Eto'o? (no idea how he's doing with Cameroon so don't pick me up on that one 'cos i'm sure there's other examples) It's not as if Maicon has achieved much more Internationally than Cole, maybe some continental titles? So maybe I'm approaching this from the angle that Maicon's 96 has little to do with what he's done for Brazil, would I be wrong in saying this? So is this an important issue when saying he deserves to be rated 2 points higher or you understanding the disparity (which ever bracket you fall in).

Sorry if my point is laboured.

Bold bit - It would seem we agree :P Maicon should be ahead but possibly the 2 point gap is too much.

On the international point I think it's more if players reproduce their club form for their country. No English players do :(

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Re: Ashley Cole vs. Maicon: Why is there a 2 point gap?

To those who think Phil's post is offensive really take a look at yourself and how you view England as a footballing nation. We really aren't great :o In fact' date=' we overachieve and considering how little we achieve, that's saying something.

[/quote']

That's not the only reason people would find his post offensive.

England not being that great a footballing nation is obvious anyway. All you need to do is know when England last won a trophy, and know how poor they were at the last world cup.

Phil: If you can't back up the things you said, maybe you shouldn't post them in the first place.

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Re: Ashley Cole vs. Maicon: Why is there a 2 point gap?

Phil: If you can't back up the things you said' date=' maybe you shouldn't post them in the first place.[/quote']

What exactly is there I should or that I have to back up? Paul expressed his views and opinion in the opening post, I expressed mine in my post, as well as pointing out some facts, that weren't proved wrong by anyone.

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Re: Ashley Cole vs. Maicon: Why is there a 2 point gap?

What exactly is there I should or that I have to back up? Paul expressed his views and opinion in the opening post' date=' I expressed mine in my post, as well as pointing out some facts, that weren't proved wrong by anyone.[/quote']

"Baines? Bridge? I'm sure I could train a monkey to become a better LB than those 2."

"Cole is playing for a team that everyone outside of the island is only laughing about."

"Cole isn't rated that highly outside England. "

None of these are facts, and all need to be backed up.

Also, could you point out these supposed facts? I just looked at your post again and saw only one, maybe two facts.

Edit: If what you said are 'facts' you should have no problem backing them up, but you haven't backed anything up.

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Re: Ashley Cole vs. Maicon: Why is there a 2 point gap?

SM ratings are based on achievements and form.

* 60-70 - A player who has just started his career or playing non-league football;

* 70-75 - A player who has just started his career or playing in the fourth tier within the major world leagues;

* 75-80 - A player who has proved himself on a regular basis in the third tier within the major world leagues or 'minor' leagues;

* 80-85 - A player who has proved himself on a regular basis in the second tier within the major world leagues or 'lesser' leagues;

* 85-90 - A player who has proved himself on a regular basis in one of the major world leagues or excelled in a 'lesser' league;

* 90-95 - A player who has proved his class on a regular basis in one of the major world leagues or for a top ranked national team or on the continental stage;

* 95+ - A player who has proved his class both on the domestic and continental or international stage.

The main factors that contribute to a down-rating include:

* Long term injury;

* Serious dip in form;

* Dropping down a domestic league level;

* Moving to a less competitive domestic league;

* Lack of regular first team football;

* Lack of regular continental football;

* Lack of regular international football;

* Long term suspension from the game.

The main factors that contribute to an up-rating include:

* Individual awards and accolades;

* Domestic honours;

* Continental honours;

* International honours;

* Domestic experience;

* Continental experience;

* International experience;

* Reaching the next stage in their career (e.g proving themselves in a higher division or at a continental/international level).

A player will not have their rating changed immediately after an international tournament, like the World Cup, European Championships, Copa América etc. However, their performance will be taken into consideration the next time their rating is reviewed.

Maicon and Evra both play for more successful clubs and international teams than Cole.

All three have proved their class on both domestic and continental or international stage.

Is this debate about who is best, or the ratings?

If it's about who is best; it should be:

1: Maicon

2: Cole

3: Evra

If it is about their SM ratings, it should be:

1: Maicon - 97

2: Evra - 96

3: Cole - 95

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