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Re: The Politics Thread

I agree with you' date=' i think this law is disgusting - what gives us the right to dictate what a particular sector of society wear, its bordering on[b'] racial discrimination[/b]. This is only going to make the divide between the Middle-East and the West even larger, i wouldn't be surprised if we see a rise in terrorism because of this as its just giving the Muslim extremists more ammunition for their cause.

No, it's not at all.

This is the reason why our country is terrible, because people are scared of being offensive.

Tell me I can't wear something to Work, is that racial discrimination? Or is it just being sensible. But no, this farce called religion (which is a load of bol) means everyone gets oversensitive.

It's not even part of religion, it's choice, therfor more of a status symbol.

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Re: The Politics Thread

I agree with you' date=' i think this law is disgusting - what gives us the right to dictate what a particular sector of society wear, its bordering on racial discrimination. This is only going to make the divide between the Middle-East and the West even larger, i wouldn't be surprised if we see a rise in terrorism because of this as its just giving the Muslim extremists more ammunition for their cause.[/quote']

So we have to make decisions about what we believe is acceptable in OUR culture because of some pathetic low life idiotic sick terrorists. :rolleyes:

I find kissing and or holding hands in public acceptable.

In arabic states id end up in prison if i did that. Is the west kicking off and trying to change their laws ? NO.

Its not racial discrimination... anyone can be a muslim.

Have you read the rest of the posts on this thread.

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Re: The Politics Thread

you are all reasonable members of society and none just down right racist.

am i right in saying this?

yet you all feel anger and resentment towards a ethnic minority / immigrant group due to ott measures by the governements of several different countries.

the fact anger or bitterness is created within communties is saddening, and at more extreme levels it provides fuel for others to be racist.

its quite sad :(

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Re: The Politics Thread

So we have to make decisions about what we believe is acceptable in OUR culture because of some pathetic low life idiotic sick terrorists. :rolleyes:

I find kissing and or holding hands in public acceptable.

In arabic states id end up in prison if i did that. Is the west kicking off and trying to change their laws ? NO.

Its not racial discrimination... anyone can be a muslim.

Have you read the rest of the posts on this thread.

Yes i have and to be honest i'm not surprised by the ignorant dross that has been said by some people regarding 'British identity' and 'they should have to be like us to live in Britain' - no they don't we are a democratic, fair country and they have a right to express their beliefs in public if they want to. I think its important to embrace other cultures as it enriches our country and makes it a more diverse environment to live in.

And i wasn't saying that we have to curtail to their beliefs to prevent terrorism, i was stating what the likely reaction to this law from the Muslim community is going to be. We should be looking to integrate people of other beliefs into our society and laws like this just make them feel ostracised. This is why we are seeing more British muslims turn to extremism and all we are doing by introducing measures like this is making the issue worse.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Yes i have and to be honest i'm not surprised by the ignorant dross that has been said by some people regarding 'British identity' and 'they should have to be like us to live in Britain' - no they don't we are a democratic' date=' fair country and they have a right to express their beliefs in public if they want to. I think its important to embrace other cultures as it enriches our country and makes it a more diverse environment to live in.

And i wasn't saying that we have to curtail to their beliefs to prevent terrorism, i was stating what the likely reaction to this law from the Muslim community is going to be. We should be looking to integrate people of other beliefs into our society and laws like this just make them feel ostracised. This is why we are seeing more British muslims turn to extremism and all we are doing by introducing measures like this is making the issue worse.[/quote']

Please feel free to not speak generically when your are undoubtedly aiming some of your points at me.

Regardless if its at me or not, specifically highlight this "dross" you talk about.

Where have i said in any of my posts that we shouldnt embrace other cultures, what i did say is that respect for our cultural tradition should be occur. We demonstrate it ( by and large ) when we go to arabic states where Islam is the main religion. Infact where has ANYONE said that they have to be like us !

No were seeing British Muslims turn into extremists because of evil, power hungry sick men who turn the minds of the weak.

The burka is not a religious necessity and at the end of the day causes friction in the communities. Its purpose is by and large degrading and oppressive.

Probably worth a read.

I agree with alot of the sentiments in it.

I understand people have opinions i just feel he makes a good point.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1375770/The-burka-oppresses-women-required-Islamic-law--doesnt-mean-Britain-follow-Frances-footsteps.html

I urge ALL people who have been involved in this topic to read it.

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Re: The Politics Thread

what the likely reaction to this law from the Muslim community is going to be. We should be looking to integrate people of other beliefs into our society and laws like this just make them feel ostracised. This is why we are seeing more British muslims turn to extremism and all we are doing by introducing measures like this is making the issue worse.

what a load of nonsense.

muslims DO NOT turn to extremeism for this reason.

muslims do no turn to extremism for any reason.

british muslims would do nothing of the sort.

i think you must dissassociate muslims with extremeism.

its like me saying all the irish in england plant car combs if they didnt get their way.

vast generalisations about a tiny group of our world. it happens in all religions. we should never associate terrorists with us normal folk.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Please feel free to not speak generically when your are undoubtedly aiming some of your points at me.

Regardless if its at me or not' date=' specifically highlight this "dross" you talk about.

Where have i said in any of my posts that we shouldnt embrace other cultures, what i did say is that respect for our cultural tradition should be occur. We demonstrate it ( by and large ) when we go to arabic states where Islam is the main religion. Infact where has ANYONE said that they have to be like us !

No were seeing British Muslims turn into extremists because of evil, power hungry sick men who turn the minds of the weak.

The burka is not a religious necessity and at the end of the day causes friction in the communities. Its purpose is by and large degrading and oppressive.

Probably worth a read.

I agree with alot of the sentiments in it.

I understand people have opinions i just feel he makes a good point.

[url']http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1375770/The-burka-oppresses-women-required-Islamic-law--doesnt-mean-Britain-follow-Frances-footsteps.html[/url]

I urge ALL people who have been involved in this topic to read it.

I think he makes some decent points, particularly this one -

"Although France is entitled to exercise its legislative powers, this is too blunt an instrument to combat the blight of burkas on Europe’s streets."

I also broadly agree with his 'LMR' stuff at the end, and this is where I feel many liberals get a little too precious about things. I don't believe that burqa's should be banned from public places, however I also believe you don't have to respect (danger of semantics becoming an issue here, but meh) peoples decision to wear them. What I mean is that I would tolerate their decision without doubt, but equally I would criticise it and so long as it doesn't overstep the mark poke a bit of fun at the absurdity of it all. Much in the same way people have no problem doing with, for arguments sake (and I'm aware it's something of a lazy comparison) Scientology. With hopefully the end result being some of the women who are coerced into wearing these garments perhaps questioning the reasoning behind it a little more than they otherwise would.

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Re: The Politics Thread

I think he makes some decent points' date=' particularly this one -

"Although France is entitled to exercise its legislative powers, this is too blunt an instrument to combat the blight of burkas on Europe’s streets."

I also broadly agree with his 'LMR' stuff at the end, and this is where I feel many liberals get a little too precious about things. I don't believe that burqa's should be banned from public places, however I also believe you don't have to respect (danger of semantics becoming an issue here, but meh) peoples decision to wear them. What I mean is that I would tolerate their decision without doubt, but equally I would criticise it and so long as it doesn't overstep the mark poke a bit of fun at the absurdity of it all. Much in the same way people have no problem doing with, for arguments sake (and I'm aware it's something of a lazy comparison) Scientology. With hopefully the end result being some of the women who are coerced into wearing these garments perhaps questioning the reasoning behind it a little more than they otherwise would.[/quote']

If these woman do question the reasons why they wear it, do you honestly think they will stop wearing it, i believe due to social forces ( fear of consequences, fear of being isolated from the family , fear of the men and religious leaders ) that they wouldnt.

I fully expect woman to think it now, but feel as if they dont have a choice in the matter.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Please feel free to not speak generically when your are undoubtedly aiming some of your points at me.

Regardless if its at me or not' date=' specifically highlight this "dross" you talk about.

Where have i said in any of my posts that we shouldnt embrace other cultures, what i did say is that respect for our cultural tradition should be occur. We demonstrate it ( by and large ) when we go to arabic states where Islam is the main religion. Infact where has ANYONE said that they have to be like us !

No were seeing British Muslims turn into extremists because of evil, power hungry sick men who turn the minds of the weak.

The burka is not a religious necessity and at the end of the day causes friction in the communities. Its purpose is by and large degrading and oppressive.

Probably worth a read.

I agree with alot of the sentiments in it.

I understand people have opinions i just feel he makes a good point.

[url']http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1375770/The-burka-oppresses-women-required-Islamic-law--doesnt-mean-Britain-follow-Frances-footsteps.html[/url]

I urge ALL people who have been involved in this topic to read it.

I was not aiming my points at anyone in particular there have been too many posts for me to go through looking at who said what, i'm just picking up points that people have said in this discussion and responding to them.

I feel that people are making far too many generalised statements that have no factual evidence to back them up, like criminals using burkhas as a disguise i think this is just sensationalist drivel dreamt up by certain newspapers to get a reaction and all it does is fuel racist attitudes towards other cultures. Yes i agree that they should respect our beliefs, just as much as we should respect theirs. I personally don't like the Burkha, but that doesn't mean i have the right to say someone can't wear one if they wish to do so.

That article is one reason why i don't read the Daily Mail - so what if it doesn't say in the Koran that women should wear Burkhas, we have no right to judge other religions and their holy scriptures, if they believe in the Burhka then that's their choice. That newspaper never ceases to amaze me with its xenophobic storytelling.

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Re: The Politics Thread

I feel that people are making far too many generalised statements that have no factual evidence to back them up' date=' like criminals using burkhas as a disguise i think this is just sensationalist drivel dreamt up by certain newspapers to get a reaction and all it does is fuel racist attitudes towards other cultures. Yes i agree that they should respect our beliefs, just as much as we should respect theirs. I personally don't like the Burkha, but that doesn't mean i have the right to say someone can't wear one if they wish to do so.

[/quote']

Theres one:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1277786/The-Burka-Bandit-strikes-Knifeman-raids-travel-agent-year.html

EDIT: I appreciate its Daily Mail, but are they arent making this up are they. Regardless of how they report it, it occurs.

Your right its about mutual respect, but when they are moving to our country ( which i promote to an extent - levels of immigration is a different topic ) they have to show more respect to our culture and follow our laws.

Im not saying they are 2nd class citizens, far from it. It is simply not acceptable to walk down the street with a balaclava on is it ? Its not ok to conceal your face in public areas.... thats our western / British / whatever views. By wearing a piece of clothing that has no religous value, it manages to cause severe tension within the community.

That article is one reason why i don't read the Daily Mail - so what if it doesn't say in the Koran that women should wear Burkhas, we have no right to judge other religions and their holy scriptures, if they believe in the Burhka then that's their prerogative. That newspaper never ceases to amaze me with its xenophobic storytelling.

Im sorry but your PC opinions and views cause more trouble than good. Cant say this, cant do that, you might hurt someones feelings. unbelievable.

were not judging other peoples religions if the religion doesnt require you to wear a burqua. Were questioning a item of clothing that causes hostility amongst communities and can on rare occasion be used to conceal ones identity.

If banning burqas meant banning people from walking down the road in balaclavas so be it.

:rolleyes:

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Re: The Politics Thread

If these woman do question the reasons why they wear it' date=' do you honestly think they will stop wearing it, i believe due to social forces ( fear of consequences, fear of being isolated from the family , fear of the men and religious leaders ) that they wouldnt.

I fully expect woman to think it now, but feel as if they dont have a choice in the matter.[/quote']

They're left with a potentially ugly dilemma in this circumstance already though. It's not much of a stretch to conjure up a scenario in which a young girl might not want to wear it but it encouraged to by her family or community and now the French Government tries to push her not to wear it. Instantly she's forced to make a choice that one way or another doesn't end well for her, and what's more she has to pay her own fines if she decides to continue wearing one. I know the law itself states that those forcing the woman will be fined but is any girl that continues to choose to wear a burqa under duress from family really going to suddenly discover the conviction to then point the finger at her family?

I just think the answer in this sort of scenario is education and dialogue rather than the state telling us what we can and cannot wear.

Edit: As a rule I don't buy the Daily Mail because some of it's columnists and agenda are, to be blunt, bigoted. However I found that article to be relative reasonable, albeit on a skim reading.

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Re: The Politics Thread

They're left with a potentially ugly dilemma in this circumstance already though. It's not much of a stretch to conjure up a scenario in which a young girl might not want to wear it but it encouraged to by her family or community and now the French Government tries to push her not to wear it. Instantly she's forced to make a choice that one way or another doesn't end well for her' date=' and what's more she has to pay her own fines if she decides to continue wearing one. I know the law itself states that those forcing the woman will be fined but is any girl that continues to choose to wear a burqa under duress from family really going to suddenly discover the conviction to then point the finger at her family?

I just think the answer in this sort of scenario is education and dialogue rather than the state telling us what we can and cannot wear.

Edit: As a rule I don't buy the Daily Mail because some of it's columnists and agenda are, to be blunt, bigoted. However I found that article to be relative reasonable, albeit on a skim reading.[/quote']

Thats true. I never thought about the consequences of such a act.

However if that girl is questioning it, least she can feel as if she is supported by the law, rather than left to fend for herself. her not wearing it due to it being illegal is easier to tell her parents ( who enforce her to wear one ) than coming out and saying i dont wish to wear it. It gives her a chance to not wear it without fear of social consequences.

Your right education is the correct way to go about things, nor am i openly advocating a ban... although i may of came across that way in recent posts. Im just highlight the justifications for doing so.

The article itself proposes education would be a better method .

I dont really read newspapers all to often, the times on a sunday but thats about it :o

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Re: The Politics Thread

Thats true. I never thought about the consequences of such a act.

However if that girl is questioning it' date=' least she can feel as if she is supported by the law, rather than left to fend for herself. her not wearing it due to it being illegal is easier to tell her parents ( who enforce her to wear one ) than coming out and saying i dont wish to wear it. It gives her a chance to not wear it without fear of social consequences.

Your right education is the correct way to go about things, nor am i openly advocating a ban... although i may of came across that way in recent posts. Im just highlight the justifications for doing so.

The article itself proposes education would be a better method .

I dont really read newspapers all to often, the times on a sunday but thats about it :o[/quote']

Oh yeah, I'm sure there are individual cases where a person will feel nothing but relief at the ruling.

The article is fine unless I've missed something, it's more the likes of Littlejohn and Jan Moir at the Mail who cause offence.

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Re: The Politics Thread

I still don't see the point in banning it other than political gain...

The French government is restricting a choice which affects a religious minority. I'm of the opinion that religion and politics should be kept separate wherever possible and so I'm not a fan of the ban at all.

That said, I hate the things :o

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Re: The Politics Thread

Theres one:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1277786/The-Burka-Bandit-strikes-Knifeman-raids-travel-agent-year.html

EDIT: I appreciate its Daily Mail' date=' but are they arent making this up are they. Regardless of how they report it, it occurs.

Your right its about mutual respect, but when they are moving to our country ( which i promote to an extent - levels of immigration is a different topic ) they have to show more respect to our culture and follow our laws.

Im not saying they are 2nd class citizens, far from it. It is simply not acceptable to walk down the street with a balaclava on is it ? Its not ok to conceal your face in public areas.... thats our western / British / whatever views. By wearing a piece of clothing that has no religous value, it manages to cause severe tension within the community. [/quote']

In response to that article, i understand that there is always going to be a small minority who use the Burkha for concealment in crime however not every Muslim is using the Burkha for that purpose. I think that balaclava's and Burkha's are very similar - they have both been used by criminals to help conceal their identity. Balaclava's were and still are used as an effective way of keeping your head warm in the winter, however terrorists started using them for concealment for their activities. Just like someone wearing a Burkha, we can't generalise by saying that everyone who wears a balaclava is a terrorist.

Im sorry but your PC opinions and views cause more trouble than good. Cant say this, cant do that, you might hurt someones feelings. unbelievable.

were not judging other peoples religions if the religion doesnt require you to wear a burqua. Were questioning a item of clothing that causes hostility amongst communities and can on rare occasion be used to conceal ones identity.

If banning burqas meant banning people from walking down the road in balaclavas so be it.

:rolleyes:

I would not describe myself as PC, i just believe in a fair and just world where everyone can voice and express their beliefs - there's nothing wrong with that is there?? I'm wise enough to understand that that will never happen all the time humans are on earth but there's no harm in hoping.

The only reason the Burkha causes hostility in communities is that some people don't want to accept that our country is becoming increasingly diverse and are rejecting anything that doesn't conform to their idea of 'an all white British society'. This, i believe, is very damaging and just fuels racist beliefs, people are only hostile to things that they don't or won't understand. I think the only way tensions can subside is through education and not believing everything you read in the newspaper

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Re: The Politics Thread

So.....surely it's not up to the people in Arab countries to dictate how we in the West rule our countries' date=' no?[/quote']

Not sure that they do Andy.

I'v never said they should' date=' but we have had a succsession of weak leaders in goverment that won't defend our way of life here as strongly as they defend there way of life in there countries. Which has created an inbalance[/quote']

Many would argue that one of the finest things about living in the UK is its history of tolerance , freedom of expression ( call it what you will). By opposing such infringements ( as in the ban) and allowing other cultures to flourish under the flag of tis country, Is it not the case that the so called weak leaders are only up holding that fine tradition?. Perhaps we have lost sight of what being British is all about here?, did we not stand up to the Catholic church ( reformation onwards?) , Napoleon ?, Imperial Germany? Communism ? and Fascism ?. Whilst accepting there was a multitude of reasons behind those conflicts at their very heart lies the self determination of the people of British Isles or In short freedom..:)

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Re: The Politics Thread

Im going to leave this for now.

Its distracted me from my work for well over an hour now. I need to get something done.

Jozua

Ill read you post in the morning or later in the evening chap.]

Fair enough mate - i always enjoy a good debate ;), sorry to have kept you from your work!!

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Re: The Politics Thread

In response to that article' date=' i understand that there is always going to be a small minority who use the Burkha for concealment in crime however not every Muslim is using the Burkha for that purpose. I think that balaclava's and Burkha's are very similar - they have both been used by criminals to help conceal their identity. Balaclava's were and still are used as an effective way of keeping your head warm in the winter, however terrorists started using them for concealment for their activities. Just like someone wearing a Burkha, we can't generalise by saying that everyone who wears a balaclava is a terrorist.

I would not describe myself as PC, i just believe in a fair and just world where everyone can voice and express their beliefs - there's nothing wrong with that is there?? I'm wise enough to understand that that will never happen all the time humans are on earth but there's no harm in hoping.

The only reason the Burkha causes hostility in communities is that some people don't want to accept that our country is becoming increasingly diverse and are rejecting anything that doesn't conform to their idea of 'an all white British society'. This, i believe, is very damaging and just fuels racist beliefs, people are only hostile to things that they don't or won't understand. I think the only way tensions can subside is through education and not believing everything you read in the newspaper[/quote']

Saw the post before i left so thought id respond :D But this is my last post tonight :D

I understand, but where on earth did i or anyone say everyone who wears a burqua is a terrorist. I said it has been used on RARE occasions by criminals so i would appreciate you not taking my comments massively out of context.

That second paragraph is perhaps the worst generalization on this whole thread. I dont know one person who likes or condones the use of burquas. That includes a handful of friends that are Muslim. My other friends, also ave muslim and friends who are not "british white" yet dont like it.

People dont like it because its against our cultural norm to not show your face, its deceptive and people recognize the oppressive values of it. I dont doubt that alot of people fit into your generalization but dont you dare put me into that bracket, its highly offensive.

What fuels racist beliefs is the mindless attachment to a piece of clothing that clearly divides muslims and the rest of britain.

Goodnight chap !

Fairly different views here, dont think we will convert one another but i take your points aboard.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Saw the post before i left so thought id respond :D But this is my last post tonight :D

I understand' date=' but [b']where on earth did i or anyone say everyone who wears a burqua is a terrorist. I said it has been used on RARE occasions by criminals so i would appreciate you not taking my comments massively out of context.[/b]

That second paragraph is perhaps the worst generalization on this whole thread. I dont know one person who likes or condones the use of burquas. That includes a handful of friends that are Muslim. My other friends, also ave muslim and friends who are not "british white" yet dont like it.

People dont like it because its against our cultural norm to not show your face, its deceptive and people recognize the oppressive values of it. I dont doubt that alot of people fit into your generalization but dont you dare put me into that bracket, its highly offensive.

What fuels racist beliefs is the mindless attachment to a piece of clothing that clearly divides muslims and the rest of britain.

Goodnight chap !

Fairly different views here, dont think we will convert one another but i take your points aboard.

Nowhere in my response did i mention your name in relation to the points i was making. I also disagree strongly with the point that i was generalising, i used the word 'some' to show that this belief is only held by a minority and i know this because i have mates with these beliefs!!

One thing that we do agree on though is that we will never convert each other!! ;):D

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Re: The Politics Thread

Like others I've lots to say on this topic, but really should be doing other things. Still, just one quick comment for now,

I feel that people are making far too many generalised statements that have no factual evidence to back them up' date=' like criminals using burkhas as a disguise i think this is just sensationalist drivel dreamt up by certain newspapers to get a reaction and all it does is fuel racist attitudes towards other cultures.

[/quote']

Couldn't agree more Jozua. Of course some criminals may use a burkha, but the sensationalist media coverage is undoubtedly pursuing an alternative agenda.

I don't get the connection between one group of people (criminals) using a certain item of clothing as a disguise for crimes, and another set of people (Muslim women) being forced to remove that garment. :confused:

By that logic if I don't want people to wear Man Utd tops then all I need to do is start fashioning disguises out of Man Utd shirts and holding up banks?

What next, banning breathing masks, bandages, Darth Vader costumes, The Beastie Boys, trees? :rolleyes:

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Re: The Politics Thread

why would someone be offended if i cover my face:confused:that doesnt mean lack of respect,its just choice like if someone likes to wear long skirt while other like to wear short skirt,and someone is offenden with that:confused:

c mon terrorist have better ways to attack,they really dont need to use burqa,and they can also use numerous disguise .........its no argument at all

war against terrorism is made up,just to big forces usa,uk,france,italy conquere arabian lands one more and take theirs oil:mad:,ofcourse there is few terrorist,but wars wont eliminate them.

who goes to terrorist-people who had some problems-why they have problems-cause others people made them-why Israel have problem with terrorists -cause they taked Palestina and now wont give them state-until they do-Israel will have problems,same with others areas

Forbiding burqa wont solve problem-only will increase tensions

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