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The Politics Thread


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Re: The Politics Thread

I mean' date=' there won't be a clean solution to this ongoing conflict that's been around since 1948, until something (power balance) drastically changes.[/quote']

How about Israel (and the US) recognising Palestine's sovereignty and ending the settlement process?

I reckon it wouldn't get much cleaner than that.

A growing number of Israelis (and many jews that don't live in Israel) think Palestine should be independent.

They are the smart and non-sociopathic ones in this process btw. ;)

They claim Israel's policies (regarding Palestine, settlements, etc) are damaging Israel's image internationally. After all, the settlers are the most radical and moronic jews.

Like I said here in the past, I have nothing against jews - I have jewish ancestors and I'm proud of my heritage.

Israel just do what they do, coz America has their back.

A lot of states have already recognised Palestine's independence, including within the UN.

But I guess we'll once again hear that America are always the good guys and the countries / people, that disagree with them, are the bad guys.

I largely prefer a world dominated by the US than a world hypothetically dominated by Russia or China, for instance. But this is a case where the US are wrong.

This reminds me of that joke where a senile old man is driving on the highway and asks: "why is everybody driving in the opposite direction?"

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Re: The Politics Thread

How about Israel (and the US) recognising Palestine's sovereignty and ending the settlement process?

I'm skeptical of any accusations that only leave one side at fault.

If one was to believe the press in Uruguay, Suarez was a huge victim of an English media exaggerating a collision.

Anyone have the proposition details from each side?

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Re: The Politics Thread

I'm skeptical of any accusations that only leave one side at fault.

If one was to believe the press in Uruguay' date=' Suarez was a huge victim of an English media exaggerating a collision.

Anyone have the proposition details from each side?[/quote']

I'm just telling it like it is.

I'm one of the most impartial and informed people you'll find - I try to look at both sides and read news from as many different sources as I can. I could even be partial in favour of Israel, due to my background.

So I'm telling you Safir, Israel are to blame in this process and should be ashamed of their atrocities.

Palestine also did horrible stuff, but it was in retaliation: it doesn't make it right, though.

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Re: The Politics Thread

I'm just telling it like it is.

I'm one of the most impartial and more informed people you'll find - I try to look at both sides and read news from as many different sources as I can. I could even be partial in favour of Israel' date=' due to my background.

So I'm telling you Safir, Israel are to blame in this process and should be ashamed of their atrocities.

Palestine also did horrible stuff, but it was in retaliation: it doesn't make it right, though.[/quote']

You are, but you might be given incomplete data.

In fact, everyone is given incomplete data.

Now, as far as international politics is concerned, it's my field of work so I consider myself a bit more trustworthy than the media (mainstream as well as alternatives (e.g. forums), which more or less frame their messages for their own interests. Just from the reports I see from both sides I know we are nowhere near hearing the full facts.

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Re: The Politics Thread

You are' date=' but you might be given incomplete data.

In fact, everyone is given incomplete data.

Now, as far as international politics is concerned, it's my field of work so I consider myself a bit more trustworthy than the media (mainstream as well as alternatives (e.g. forums), which more or less frame their messages for their own interests. Just from the reports I see from both sides I know we are nowhere near hearing the full facts.[/quote']

Yes, we never get all the data.

But I don't look for it in forums. :D

I work for a magazine that is translated into 45 different languages and politics is one of its main topics.

But unfortunately neither you nor I can have access to all the info. :(

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Re: The Politics Thread

Pedro' date=' the main problem is that the news doesn't give the information that really matters and give answers.[/quote']

I know that, but some political theories are also super biased and have an agenda behind them.

I look for info everywhere and even then I can't get it all. :)

backpack-seems-legit.jpg

What's this, Zlook. :D

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Re: The Politics Thread

More Jew baiting Halstinho....again. I thought you would have been in Syria or Iraq by now.

No' date=' not at all Dave. I'm not Jew-bating, I'm Isreal-baiting (the Zionist regime). I'm not anti-semitic, if you feel my posts are anti-semitic, go and report it to the mods and let them decide. The fact that I haven’t been punished for my posts shows that I’m not Jew-bating at all.

I don’t have a problem with Judaism at all. I don’t know much about the religion but I’m sure it’s just like any other religion, which preaches peace and tolerance. The problem I have is with Zionism. It’s been the biggest problem to achieving peace in the region. It’s been argued by many Rabbi’s that Zionism is against Jewish values and it has religious significance at all.

There’s a lot of similarities between the Zionist movement in Israel and the Nazi movement in Germany. For example, the treatment of the Palestinians who've been rounded up and moved to ghettos in Gaza, locked up and can't get out is similar to those Jewish ghettos created by Nazi Germany. Also they want the "master race" to stay intact by injecting contraceptive injections to black women without their consent in order to reduce the number of blacks. There's more as well, I could write an essay about it.

It’s not just non-Jews who are saying that there are similarities between the two ideologies, Jews have been critical of the movement. For example, Prof. Yeshayahu Leibowitz (professor of Biochemistry, Organic chemistry and Neurophysiology - Was one of the biggest criticizers of Israel):

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From 4:00 - "That shows that a Nazi-like mentality, because it is a Nazi-like mentality, also exists in our country. That is a fact. Admittedly you can find it anywhere."

Towards the end of the video, "In other words there are Judeo-Nazis. Judeo-Nazis exists."

A women who I follow on Twitter who is an activist refers to Zionists as Zio-Nazi's. Are both of them anti-semitic for comparing Zionism to Nazism? Those Jews who oppose Zionism, are they anti-semitic? Surely you can't be racist against your own religion.

The situation in Palestine is one of the biggest human tragedies that has happened. The fact that it's been going on for so long is quite saddening. More and more people are now realizing the truth. I've mentioned before that I always thought Israel was the victims, it was never their fault, but I found that it was the opposite. Famous academics such as Noam Chomsky, Stephen Hawking etc are now boycotting Israel due to their apartheid, Nazi-like regime. Chomsky, a Jew himself, one described Gaza as an "open air prison". Is he anti-semitic for saying that?

The fact that you're completely oblivious and dismissive on the situation in Palestine, as highlighted by a number of your posts, is quite astonishing. The evidence is out there, I even posted this reply when you were dismissive and instead said the neighboring Arab countries were far less tolerant and extreme as Israel. What's more astonishing is that since I educated you, you post this?! Well I guess old habits don't change. Your political hero is Thacher and she was a close friend of Israel, so I can understand your views. I hope it changes one day.

One final thing, in response to your last sentence, I think that's quite offensive to Muslims to equate them as being anti-semitic Islamists. I'm not a Muslim, but I care about human rights. If the same in Israel/Palestine was happening in a Christian country for example, and I'm saying this as Christian, I would be high critical of the regime.

Mother of god that's a lot of text.

Israelis feel threatened by the Arabs who they believe want to wipe them out at the first opportunity. Historically this is accurate. Of course internal fear-mongering has reached unrealistic levels' date=' not made easier by competing domestic political factions who don't want to look soft to voters.

Halstinho, what do you expect here though? Israel is gonna continue to do what it will...

"The strong do what they will and the weak suffer what they must". In nowhere does that hold more true than in international politics.[/quote']

Not as much as you quoting that Wikipedia article. :P

Not really. Let’s look at how Israel was formed. They were formed due to terrorist attacks on the British, who were in control of Palestine, which made them gave the decision to the UN on who get’s the land. The UN vote was a farce anyway.

Since Israel got control of most of the land, they wanted to get rid of the ingenious Palestinians by driving them out and putting them in Ghettos (Google “Nakba”). Also they murdered a large number of Palestinians in massacres such as the Qibya massacre, Safsaf massacre, Khan Yunis massacre just to name a few.

Here’s some extract’s from the book “Goliath: Life and Loathing in Greater Israel: Max Blumenthal”

In July 1948, the Israeli Haganah militia’s armor columns rumbled into the twin cities of Lydda and Ramle, leaving in their wake a trail of captured and destroyed Palestinian villages near the coast, and bearing down on hundreds of thousands of refugees who had fled for the cities in Palestine’s interior. Many refugees had sought shelter in Lydda and Ramle. Through Operation Danny, General Yigal Allon of the Haganah’s elite Palmach strike force and General Yitzhak Rabin sought to dislodge them while placing the strategically located city in Israeli hands. Once Rabin and Allon initiated their assault on the city, they beseeched the Haganah commander-in-chief and prime minister David Ben Gurion for instructions. The commanders were particularly concerned with the tens of thousands of Palestinian Arabs huddled in the cities. What should we do with them? Rabin asked. With a wave of his hand, Ben Gurion gestured to expel the besieged refugee population. “Drive them out!” he exclaimed, according to an account by Rabin.

And so they did, sending nearly fifty-five thousand indigenous inhabitants on a forced march eastward to Ramallah in which hundreds died of exhaustion—the so-called “Lydda Death March.”

More than 170 Palestinian Arabs instructed to take shelter in the Dahmash mosque near Ramle were slaughtered by forces under Rabin and Allon’s direct command, then left to rot in the July heat. About twenty to fifty more Palestinian men sent into the mosque by Israeli forces to extract the corpses and bury them were shot dead in the graves they had just dug.
On May 13, 1948, two days before Israel declared its “independence” from Great Britain, Ben Gurion’s wish came true. Zionist militias attacked Jaffa in full force, with up to 5,000 troops invading the city in waves, raining artillery shells down on the civilian population. By the end of the siege, many of the over 50,000 Arab Jaffans forced from their homes had been literally driven into the sea—forced to flee by boat to Gaza and Lebanon with whatever they could carry, and never to return. Others marched off to Ramle-Lydda, only to be chased off to Nablus and other West Bank cities by the advancing Haganah forces

If you want to know the true Israel, buy the book.

Hamas and the PLO (who are now non-violent) were formed as a result of these heinous crimes committed by the regime (I‘ll get to that later in more detail). The view is that the Israeli’s want to kill and oppress Palestinians. These groups were formed to defend themselves, not at Palestinian’s agreed with their tactics.

Yes unfortunately they will, but the recent condemnation from the US of the murder and beating is a positive sign. More and more people are realizing the truth. Through the BDS movement, Israel will get weaker since they rely on investments. A total of 17 countries out of the 28-member European Union have now lent their indirect support to the boycott and divestment movement (BDS) which, earlier in the month, had gained a complicated ally in Dutch pension fund ABP. Maybe Israel will rethink their strategy.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Anyway, here's an update of the situation. It's the same old story. Israel bombing Gaza, kidnapping attempts, assaults on Arabs, racist statements made etc.

1 - There's been over 800 strikes in Gaza since Sunday, resulting in 102 deaths and over 700 wounded, leaving 2,000 Palestinians homeless and it's rising day by day. Half of the deceased are women and children, with the youngest being one year old. If you wanna see what a dead baby looks like, click on the link.

The IDF have been justifying those strikes as "self-defense" :rolleyes: as they've been attacked by Hamas. The problem is they lied about the alleged strike on Sunday. It never happened, they gave that statement as an excuse to attack Gaza.

Since the conflict between the two, Hamas has never attacked Israel since there was a ceasefire in 2012. They denied they attacked them on Sunday, but admitted they broke the ceasefire on Monday due to Israel attacking Gaza.

Palestine are seen as the aggressors, whilst Israel are seen as the victims defending their country. That rhetoric annoys me. Israel are clearly the aggressors, surely Palestine have the right to defend their territory.

Funnily enough, Netanyahu rejected a renewed ceasefire with reasonable conditions (an end to the Israeli offensive, the release of prisoners initially freed under a prisoner swap but recently re-arrested in Israeli raids, and Israeli respect for the Palestinian unity government) and he said that a ceasefire isn't on the agenda. The US are trying to broker the ceasefire between the two parties, but with Netanyahu acting like a child throwing his toys out of the pram, it won’t happen until he’s satisfied with the damage done to Gaza.

There's actually been reports that Israel is considering a ground invasion. That will make matters worse (look at how many children were shot dead by the IDF in Operation Cast Lead) and the US have acknowledged that by preventing it from happening. Good on the US for doing that, it's a shame that they didn't stop Israel from nuking Gaza.

Like I said before, Israel doesn't want peace. They want to nuke the poop out of them.

2 –

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Netanyahu knew the three abducted teens were already dead and may have had an idea where the bodies. He apposed a gag-order so that he can whip up some anti-Palestinian rhetoric to get the Israeli’s on his side. That’s not surprising since he's been under pressure from the Israeli public due to him failing to deal with a number of situations.

A quote from Netanyahu on the operation - "We will do more than mow the lawn in Gaza. We will scorch it". Further proof that they want to nuke the poop out of them.

3 -

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I like Abby Martin. :) She's not your typical journalist, she's not afraid to overstep the line and reveal the true reality and not the facade by the mainstream media.

The mainstream media has been at it again. Take a look at this ridiculous headline by the New York Times on the bombing of a cafe where it was showing a World Cup match, which killed nine, injured 15.

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No words needed. They've later changed the headline to a more suitable one. If you thought that was ridiculous, check what happened on abc News:

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The anchor misrepresents footage of Palestinian bombing victims as Israelis. How biased can you get?! There was a lot of criticism on this piece and abc have apologized and rectified it. So good on them.

4 - Now to the murder of Muhammad Hussein Abu Khdair. The autopsy reveals that he was alive when he was burned to death. 90% of his body was covered in burns. He was also force to drink gasoline. What a horrible way to die. :(

It seems that the IDF aren't content with the killing. They attacked the mourning tent by throwing stun grenades. But what's worse is that the police spread false rumors that it was in fact an honor killing by the family as they found he was gay. That's absolutely disgusting to spread false news in order to deflect the blame away from their (Israeli) people.

Six suspects have been arrested in connection to this horrific murder. Three of them are minors. Not surprising really since the Israeli education system teaches them to hate Arabs from a young age. Article by Haaretz which highlights the problem of racism in the Israeli education system.

5 - Muhammad's cousin, Tariq Abukhdeir, a 15 year old American citizen, was beaten up by Israeli police. Even when he lost consciousness, they still continued to beat him up.

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He was arrested and held without charge, and denied medial treatment. The US has been concerned about his treatment, since after all, he is a US citizen. If it wasn't a US citizen, no comments would be made and it wouldn't have made the news. As Tariq's mother rightly pointed out, this happens everyday, and because he's a US citizen, it made the news.

6 - The journalist who filmed the assault, was attacked with a sound grenade by the IDF whilst he was broadcasting for this channel.

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Also,

#Israel alerted Adel Za'noon, #Palestine TV's correspondent, to leave their home b4 they bomb it! #Gaza #GazaUnderAttack #MediaUnderAttack

No words needed...... again.

7 - Israeli lawmaker’s call for genocide of Palestinians gets thousands of Facebook likes.

8 - Report: Israeli forces stole USD 3 million in cash, property from Palestinians during West Bank raids

9 - Pictures of the aftermath of a bombing. If you don't have a strong stomach, I suggest you don't click the link!!!

10 - Zionist settlers tried to cut the leg of two Palestinians. The 2nd link is quite gruesome, so don't click it if you don't have a strong stomach.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BrvjnfdCAAAZeUn.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Brvhz_fCAAAxgY1.jpg

11 - Two kids are now orphans since they lost their family members due to the strikes. :(

12 - Yesterday, 3 MKs were expelled from the Knesset (Israeli Parliament) plenum for calling the IDF murderers; one is led away shouting "Nazi".

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13 - In recent days 40 Israeli reserve soldiers have refused to report for call-up & two army doctors have abandoned their posts. Good for them.

14 – Tweets complied by David Sheen on Israeli teens calling for genocide. Of Arabs and death to leftists.

Sorry if I bored you to death or your fed up with these updates, I haven’t kept up well the situation and I haven’t been active, but I wanted to send a strong message that Israel are the aggressors, since the mainstream media are not. I’ll probably won’t do a long post like this again.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Goliath: Life and Loathing in Greater Israel: Max Blumenthal

How Hamas was formed:

Dayan commanded his troops to conduct widespread “screening operations.” In the refugee camps of Khan Younis and Rafah, Israeli soldiers rounded up all men aged fifteen to fifty-five, herded them into open lots, beating many along the way with wooden clubs, then lined them up against concrete walls and executed them by the dozens. Israeli forces killed as many as 275 unarmed civilians in Khan Younis; days later in Rafah, the army massacred 111 more.

The streets of the refugee camps were left lined with long rows of dead bodies bearing bullet wounds in the back of their heads. During the massacre, a Khan Younis resident named Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi witnessed the execution of his uncle. Rantissi was just nine years old at the time. “It left a wound in my heart that can never heal,” he said. “I’m telling you a story, and I am almost crying. . . . They planted hatred in our hearts.” When Rantissi came of age, he helped found Hamas, the Islamist military and political faction that currently rules the Gaza Strip.

How the PLO were founded:

In July 1948, the Israeli Haganah militia’s armor columns rumbled into the twin cities of Lydda and Ramle, leaving in their wake a trail of captured and destroyed Palestinian villages near the coast, and bearing down on hundreds of thousands of refugees who had fled for the cities in Palestine’s interior. Many refugees had sought shelter in Lydda and Ramle. Through Operation Danny, General Yigal Allon of the Haganah’s elite Palmach strike force and General Yitzhak Rabin sought to dislodge them while placing the strategically located city in Israeli hands. Once Rabin and Allon initiated their assault on the city, they beseeched the Haganah commander-in-chief and prime minister David Ben Gurion for instructions. The commanders were particularly concerned with the tens of thousands of Palestinian Arabs huddled in the cities. What should we do with them? Rabin asked. With a wave of his hand, Ben Gurion gestured to expel the besieged refugee population. “Drive them out!” he exclaimed, according to an account by Rabin.

And so they did, sending nearly fifty-five thousand indigenous inhabitants on a forced march eastward to Ramallah in which hundreds died of exhaustion—the so-called “Lydda Death March.” One young doctor trapped during an Israeli-imposed curfew in the Lydda hospital was overcome with horror at the carnage he had witnessed: His own sister died before his eyes, but he was unable to bury her because of the curfew. He was forced to dig a grave with his bare hands in the yard of her home. The young doctor was named George Habash, and would go on to found the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, a leftist political faction that led the armed struggle against Israel for several decades, including through several notorious hijackings of international airliners.

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Re: The Politics Thread

And finally, an interview with Miko Peled (the son of a former IDF-general, the grandson of one of Israel's founding fathers) by Abby Martin. Miko is an anti-Zionist (is he an anti-semite as well Dave?)

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I'll leave you guys alone now. I'll post reply's or the big events that happened. No more of my extremely long posts. :P If you're interested in following the real event unfold, not what the mainstream media says, I can tell you who to follow on Twitter. Just give me a shout. :)

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Re: The Politics Thread

If you want to know the true Israel, buy the book. :eek:

Well if you want to pick and choose what particular pieces of history you wish to believe then by all means do. Whilst not reading the book myself (like I ever would) I'd suggest the weepy eyed extracts you quote ( to confirm Israeli culpability) is marked by half truths and inaccuracies, its the Blumenthal way don't you know?.I'm not sure if he bothers to give you any background to operation Danni as you chose not to quote it i'm presuming he didn't?..

NO SURPRISE THERE THEN

It took place in response to the so called war of the roads, started in November 1947 by Arab legion fighters who operated from Lydda (Lod). On April 14, 1948, the legion ( supported by Arab villagers and Jordanian military) ambushed a large convoy on the way to the Mount Scopus Hadassah Hospital, killing seventy-seven doctors and nurses by April 20, they captured the heights around Sha'ar HaGai, making the closure to the road to Jerusalem complete.To exasperate the food and medical shortages the Arabs went about cutting off the water to the city, leaving its 100,000 inhabitants on the brink of extinct. The 3 month siege of Jerusalem was eventually broken by Jewish settlers outside the city with the construction of a Southern by pass that circumnavigated the Arab forces and allowed food and supplies to re- enter Jerusalem.

Operation Danni's purpose was to capture land East of Tel Aviv and secure the route to Jerusalem and the surrounding area, no doubt you would consider this an act of aggression but considering the hostilities conducted by the Arabs during the siege of Jerusalem many would not?.

In July 1948, the Israeli Haganah militia’s armor columns rumbled into the twin cities of Lydda and ....

The armoured colunms you describe where infact half tracks, jeeps and one armoured car ( a Marmon-Herrington) which remains on permanent display in the Israeli Armored Corps Museum at Latrun

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As a confirmed coward and whilst not wishing to be on the receiving end of one myself, the Marmon Herrington is hardly the most awesome of military vehicles is it?. Likewise its important to consider the 300 lightly armed soldiers of the Palmach faced around 1,000 local fighters and 50 soldiers from the Arab Legion armed with 25 anti-tank launchers, 20 heavy machine guns, 3 armored cars ( later supported by two tanks) along with submachine guns and rifles etc.

A quick search describes how in the first battle Arab fighters gathered at their headquarters and the police station and how after heavy fighting, the Palmach maintained a precarious hold on part of the city center. The Palmach exchanged fire with soldiers at the police station throughout the night, and by the morning they discovered that all but one (injured) of the Arab forces in had abandoned the city.

Well-established first-hand accounts from the Palmach leader in charge of negotiating with the Arab population of Lydda, Shmaryahu Gutman, and an Arab civilian guard member, Spiro Munayyer, tells how the Isreali's had spent two days negotiating with the Arab leaders of Lydda asking them to lay down their arms. They had sent a town crier to announce that all arms were to be placed in the front of the houses.

This is in part confirmed by an interesting account by historian Dan Kurzman who reveals the tone of the negotiations..

…....the overall commander of the operation in Lydda, Moshe Kelman, met with the town's leaders to discuss surrender terms, beginning with Simon Garfeh, the Greek Orthodox Archimandrite of Lydda.

"I am the Archimandrite of Lydda," he announced. "I hope you have come in peace."

"If it is the desire of the people of this town to live with us in peace," Kelman assured him, we shall be very happy." They may open their shops and resume normal life. Can you arrange for the surrender?"

"I shall try," the prelate answered ... "I shall ask the leaders of the Moslem and Christian communities to meet with us immediately in my apartment upstairs."

He then instructed an aide to run to the Big Mosque to fetch the Moslem leaders, and sent another to his own church to bring the Christian leaders taking refuge there.

About an hour later, a dozen Arab notables were sitting in Garfeh's living room sipping coffee and chatting with the clergyman, Kelman, and other Israeli officers. Finally, Kelman, putting down his coffee, addressed them:

"Gentlemen, the city has been conquered, and we want your cooperation. We suggest that you find the citizens who have been operating the utilities so that your people can have water and electricity without delay. But first you must accept our terms for peace: Surrender of all fighting personnel and of all arms within twenty-four hours. If these conditions are not met, we shall have to take action."

"We agree," one of the Arabs said with quiet resignation. "May the residents stay here if they wish?"

"Yes, they may," Kelman replied, "if they live here peacefully."

(Genesis 1948, Dan Kurzman, p. 514)

Unsurprisingly ( when you consider the Arab mentality of the time) not one weapon was laid down and the ceasefire did not hold as fighting flared again when a Jordanian patrol made up of a tank and two armoured cars, attacked the city. Despite the surrender agreement, and the promise to turn over arms the population rose up and after butchering 5 Israeli soliders the Israelis had to retake the city house by house, and this time giving no quarter they killed around 200 Arab fighters.

More than 170 Palestinian Arabs instructed to take shelter in the Dahmash mosque near Ramle were slaughtered by forces under Rabin and Allon’s direct command, then left to rot in the July heat. About twenty to fifty more Palestinian men sent into the mosque by Israeli forces to extract the corpses and bury them were shot dead in the graves they had just dug.

Well far from taking shelter they continued to fight from with the Mosque ( as they do now) and its suggested it was nearer 70 fighters not 170 Sound military logic prevented a full frontal assault so after a stand off the walls were breeched BY a P.I.A.T anti tank weapon before being stormed by a platoon of Isreali's. The majority of the Arabs died in the initial blast and the others were quickly mopped up by the attacking platoon.

With the second battle of Lydda over, attention turned to what to do with its inhabitants. Before the attack the Isrealis intentions were made quite clear by these standing orders...

“Outside of active fighting, it is forbidden... to expel Arab residents from their villages, neighbourhoods, and cities and to displace residents without special permission or the clear instruction from the Defence Minister in each specific case. Anyone violating this order will be tried.”

So who decided to expel the population and why?, well the second part is easy. Did the Isrealis have the forces to hold the town?, Could the towns people be trusted to disarm?, would the town be used by the Arabs to once more threaten Jersualem?. The answer to all these are clearly no. The order to expel the population was itself made by Mula Cohen who in his memoirs declares..

“Let me be clear: I do not deny that it was I, as head of the brigade, who made the decision, and only after did I receive the permission of the commanders of Operation Dani.”

Allon accepted Cohen’s view that the only way to hold Lydda was to expel the residents. Allon and Yitzhak Rabin ( aware of the standing orders), argued about it and went to Ben-Gurion who not surprisingly agreed with the man on the ground Cohen. Lets be clear there was no massacre or executions just the forced order to move towards the Jordanian lines near Ramallah, in fact one could suggest that fearing Israeli retribution the Arabs went willingly.

Still the question that neither you or ( that hero of the European extreme right) Blumenthal seem prepared to pose is why did the battle of Lydda take place in the first place?...in short to prevent the Arabs once more besieging 100,000 Jews in Jerusalem. When it comes to Israel such half truths and one sided distortions of facts and lack of historical context is not new or exclusive to Blumenthal. Lets be clear it is found around the world from the UN, European Neo Nazis, the BBC, the idle chattering classes of academia, the degenerate Hollywood elite and every sixth form college in the Western world. You only offer or hear one side of a very tragic story and whilst you are happy to focus on the plight of the Arabs / Muslims you say nothing of the persecution of the Jews, the suicide bombings, the indiscriminate missile attacks and more lately the cold blooded murder of three innocent children...

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Shalom.. Naftali (16), Gilad (16) and Eyal (19)

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Re: The Politics Thread

And finally' date=' an interview with Miko Peled (the son of a former IDF-general, the grandson of one of Israel's founding fathers) by Abby Martin. Miko is an anti-Zionist (is he an anti-semite as well Dave?)

[/quote']

The term self loathing Jew comes to mind..

A father finds out that his son is dead after Israeli bombardment. You can clearly see the back of his head is blown off. :( What on earth did this child do to deserve this? :(

A question that should perhaps be directed to the Hamas terrorists who continue to hide their rocket launchers' date=' command centers and weapons dumps in densely populated urban areas.[/color']

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Re: The Politics Thread

Goliath: Life and Loathing in Greater Israel: Max Blumenthal

How Hamas was formed:

Dayan commanded his troops to conduct widespread “screening operations.” In the refugee camps of Khan Younis and Rafah' date=' Israeli soldiers rounded up all men aged fifteen to fifty-five, herded them into open lots, beating many along the way with wooden clubs, then lined them up against concrete walls and executed them by the dozens. Israeli forces killed as many as 275 unarmed civilians in Khan Younis; days later in Rafah, the army massacred 111 more.

The streets of the refugee camps were left lined with long rows of dead bodies bearing bullet wounds in the back of their heads. During the massacre, a Khan Younis resident named Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi witnessed the execution of his uncle. Rantissi was just nine years old at the time. “It left a wound in my heart that can never heal,” he said. “I’m telling you a story, and I am almost crying. . . . They planted hatred in our hearts.” When Rantissi came of age, he helped found Hamas, the Islamist military and political faction that currently rules the Gaza Strip. [/quote']

Rules?...well if you consider murdering all your political rivals as legitimate then yes i suppose it does ?..:eek:

Wow, that Abdel quite the Robin Hood wasn't he?..

The screening operations you mention were an attempt by the IDF to round up members of the Palestinian Fedayeen terrorist group lets call them the PF. The PF were organised, recruited, and armed by the Egyptian government and operated from the bases around Jordan, Egypt and the refugee camps within the Lebanon. Between the period of 1951-1956 these Heroes (?) carried out hundreds of attacks against Israel...over 400 Israelis were killed and around a 1000 were injured.

I could catalogue some of the crimes, but i'll leave that sort of thing to you, but take it from me emotive pictures of dying children does not change historical fact , and besides thats not really the point I am making. What I am offering is context, the Rafah screening did take place and yes hundreds died in what can perhaps best be described as a botched and brutal anti-insurgency operation..although

(unsurprisingly) accounts and numbers differ.

Equally undeniably is that the screening was in answer to a brutal terror campaign waged by the Arabs which saw hundreds of men, women and children dead or maimed. What was Israel to do?, nothing?..and if you choose to respond with '' two wrongs don't make a right'' then I would agree, but I would ask you to make such sentiment more apparent within your anti Jewish rants.

So lets accept (?) this as Rantissi's motivation for his role in Hamas, does it excuse its crimes?..how many murders has it carried out? (both Arab and Jew) 100's ,1000's and at what point is the slate wipped clean ?, I guess we will never know?. Then again judging by its self proclaimed charter it looks like never..

...“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.” “Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very series. It needs all sincere efforts.”

....“The Islamist Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine.”

“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews [killing the Jews], when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Musims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.”

...“Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.”

“The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king of president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Muslim generations until Judgement Day.” “This is the law government the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Muslims have conquered by force.”

..“Initiatives and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.”

..“There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”“It is necessary to instill in the minds of the Muslim generations that the Palestinian problem is a religious problem and should be dealt with on this basis.”

..“Their lackeys who are infiltrated through Zionist organizations under various names and shapes, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, espionage groups and others, which are all nothing more than cells of subversion and saboteurs. These organizations have ample resources that enable them to play their role in societies for the purpose of achieving the Zionist targets and to deepen the concepts that would serve the enemy.”

..“Secularism completely contradicts religious ideology. Attitudes, conduct and decisions stem from ideologies.”“We are unable to exchange the present or future Islamic Palestine with the secular idea. The Islamic nature of Palestine is part of our religion and whoever takes his religion lightly is a loser.”

..“Peace and quite would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. Past and present history are the best witness to that. It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region because the day these followers should take over, there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror.”

..The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion,” and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.”

...thats an abridged version of their charter, I was tempted to share the full version but the (usual) medieval rhetoric it uses gets a bit heavy on the eye for a Sunday morning. And for those who don't know?, poor old Abdel along with his predecessor Yassin were atomised by Israeli missiles within three weeks of each other back in March 2004..looks like Satan had a busy month, may they both burn in hell forever..:)

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Re: The Politics Thread

Way too much to read on here lately in terms of post length ;)

Don't care much about Israel or Palestine and if they fancy fighting each other for another 50 years, go ahead.

As often with these kind of things though, the truth will lie somewhere in the middle of your two standpoints. Neither are saints.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Know where you are coming from Mia, that Halstinho bloke does go on a bit..

Outrageously (anti-Israeli) biased coverage from the BBC1 again tonight, and of course no mention of vile republican attacks on British war graves and Orange halls in Ulster...a marked contrast in the coverage they placed upon last years Loyalist disturbances...

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Re: The Politics Thread

I haven't read anything below,so bear with me if I said had already a counter argument below.

Only thing that kills me is that How many Israelis have been killed by Palestinians and while Palestine are defending their country what the Hell are Israelis doing there,all the area that was Palestine is just about 1/20th of it now,and MARK MY WORDS,they wont be able to "MAINTAIN PEACE" the way they have been doing,these muslims don't give up so easily,they'll probably have to compromise like USA did to Afghanistan.

Anyone defending Israel,well may God show you the right path.

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