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Re: The Politics Thread

Whilst you have to be careful what you see and listen to on social media, it's clear from credible news sources that the devastation and loss of human life is vast in Gaza. Women and children seemingly being targeted just as much as military instalments is a war crime and a crime against humanity.

Hamas are known to be a ruthless and active terrorist organisation and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if they were hiding behind the cloaks of hospitals or schools, but I can't help but think that if this was happening in any other region of the world, or it was a Muslim country strangling a Jewish/Christian area, then something would have been done about it by now. And frankly that's very disturbing. Where are the people of Gaza supposed to flee to? In South Sudan, there's a civil war, and the citizens can flee to bordering countries given the chance. Gaza has it's borders closed by both the Israelis and Egyptians, so what are the civilians supposed to do? It's disturbing to watch on the news. Seeing the catastrophic loss of innocent human lives at the hands of a military force that is bombarding a tiny strip of densely populated land with no defence system or proper army to defend its people.

I'm by no means siding with a dangerous terrorist organisation, but this is quickly becoming genocide.

-------------------------------------------------

As for the situation in Ukraine, I'm seriously worried. It's looking more and more likely that Putin, or at least Russian backed separatists played a monumental part in the downing of flight MH17, and if that's proven to be the case and Putin digs his heels in, I can see the possibility of this going from a national conflict to a more world wide one.

Latest is that the black box is in the hands of the separatists and is being sent back to Russia. If that's the case, I seriously doubt that it'll see the light of day again. And if it does, no doubt it'll have been tampered with. Not to mention the train supposedly carrying nearly 200 bodies that's gone to Donetsk.

I don't see how more sanctions on Russian assets, like Cameron is calling for, is going to force Putin to put pressure on the separatists to allow the flight accident investigators access to the site. The fact that the site still hasn't been internationally cordoned off and that the Ukrainians have had access to it before the investigators points more and more to evidence tampering and covering up.

It's hard to remember at times that this is a massive humanitarian tragedy and that there are families all over the world waiting to get the bodies of their loved ones back in order to have funerals and say their goodbyes. Unfortunately, I can't see that happening any time soon, and frankly, I wouldn't put it past Putin to use them as bargaining chips or something along those lines.

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Re: The Politics Thread

The problem is so easy to solve' date=' yet no one has really even considered it. Build a very high wall around them and let them fight/talk it out.

Most of this fighting is due to third-party provocation anyway.[/quote']

Nope. Most of it is because neither side wants to take the deal that's on the table. Which in terms of strategy usually means either further compromise or eliminating the opponent. This is a peculiar situation though with neither side in a particular hurry to find a solution.

(Given how issues elsewhere - such as Ukraine - were stealing the limelight from their issue, those involved got a little antsy and want to remind the public of their presence with a few rockets etc.)

In the long-term, Israel is fine with the status quo, given that Hamas is far less dangerous than groups connected to Al Qaeda. As for Hamas, it wants to maintain its leading position among the Palestinians so they'll do some small things regularly - though every once in a while they get punished hard by the Israelis (like now) but they've come to accept that as part of the cost of operation.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Gets on my nerves watching the disgraceful way that the victims and families are treated with such contempt by the Russian authorities.

I think it is a fair assumption to say that it was Russian separatists who shot down that plane, it is an absolute disgrace, this is a group of people who had shot down a number of planes and how would separatists get weaponry of that ilk and power.....simple RUSSIA.

Why are they not allowing an independent investigation team into the area, why have they sent the separatists to return the Black Boxes to them, black boxes I doubt we will ever see and as Rugger says if we do will be tampered with.

Why are they getting rid if wreckage and evidence before any International investigation team has had a chance to go to the area???

It is abundantly clear there is certainly something to hide and that Putin/Russia are doing all they can IMO to cover up the huge humanitarian tragedy that they have sponsored and caused, it is a disgrace.

When will Europe get tough on Russia, for heavens sake they invaded a sovereign nation, shot down a passenger flight and ignore all kinds of international convention. I wish that Europe would show a backbone and actually issue sanctions which will actually have an effect and show some moral fortitude but the reality is it won't happen as many European nations have such strong economic links with Russia and when they include powerhouse like Germany and Italy in particular you think they are gunna get tough??

the sanctions made in the first place were so minimal it was laughable.

I don't think so even though they should, sometimes you have to stomach a little dip in your own economy to do the right thing, it ain't easy but it is right.

It might cost your economy for a while, but surely the cost of doing nothing will be even worse in the long term?? Putin is literally getting away with murder.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Gets on my nerves watching the disgraceful way that the victims and families are treated with such contempt by the Russian authorities.

I think it is a fair assumption to say that it was Russian separatists who shot down that plane' date=' it is an absolute disgrace, this is a group of people who had shot down a number of planes and how would separatists get weaponry of that ilk and power.....simple RUSSIA.

Why are they not allowing an independent investigation team into the area, why have they sent the separatists to return the Black Boxes to them, black boxes I doubt we will ever see and as Rugger says if we do will be tampered with.

Why are they getting rid if wreckage and evidence before any International investigation team has had a chance to go to the area???

It is abundantly clear there is certainly something to hide and that Putin/Russia are doing all they can IMO to cover up the huge humanitarian tragedy that they have sponsored and caused, it is a disgrace.

When will Europe get tough on Russia, for heavens sake they invaded a sovereign nation, shot down a passenger flight and ignore all kinds of international convention. I wish that Europe would show a backbone and actually issue sanctions which will actually have an effect and show some moral fortitude but the reality is it won't happen as many European nations have such strong economic links with Russia and when they include powerhouse like Germany and Italy in particular you think they are gunna get tough??

the sanctions made in the first place were so minimal it was laughable.

I don't think so even though they should, sometimes you have to stomach a little dip in your own economy to do the right thing, it ain't easy but it is right.

It might cost your economy for a while, but surely the cost of doing nothing will be even worse in the long term?? Putin is literally getting away with murder.[/quote']

The milk is already spilled, the mistakes were made earlier and so we're paying the price.

Now the whole situation has gone crap and Russia isn't likely to back off in near future.

The Obama administration was clearly taken by surprise when Russia decided to seize Crimea by force. The real question, however, is why Obama and his advisors thought the United States and the European Union could help engineer the ouster of a democratically elected and pro-Russian leader in Ukraine and expect Vladimir Putin to go along with it? This remarkable combination of hubris and naiveté is even more striking when one considers that Washington has few, if any, options to counter Putin's move.

To be sure, ousted president Viktor Yanukovych was corrupt and incompetent and the United States and the European Union didn't create the protests that rose up against him. But instead of encouraging the protestors to stand down and wait for unhappy Ukrainians to vote Yanukovych out of office, the European Union and the United States decided to speed up the timetable and tacitly support the anti-Yanukovych forces. When the U.S. assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian Affairs is on the streets of Kiev handing out pastries to anti-government protestors, it's a sign that Washington is not exactly neutral. Unfortunately, enthusiastic supporters of "Western" values never stopped to ask themselves what they would do if Russia objected.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/03/03/no_contest_ukraine_obama_putin

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Re: The Politics Thread

I want to say something as an Israeli (And i'm sorry for my bad English).

We are dealing with a really hard situation here. We got out from gaza strip 9 years ago. It was really hard to the israeli people and this story is bleeding in many of our harts (We evacuated thousands of people from their homes, by the military who uses soldiers from all over our land, including from the settlments near gaza..) The arabs, instead of building their life, put all their efforts to kill and destroy. to hate. They are shooting missiles on our civilians (few minuets ago i had to run to a shelter) and digging tunnels in order to sneak weapons and kill people at their homes. And then hide themselves and their weapons in hospitals and schools and so on. Our army is really trying to avoid hurting innocent people, even in cost of lifes of soldiers who are trying to protect their families and their people. We are doing it in a lot of ways. But we have no choice, we have to protect ourselves, our families, our kids. So what should we do? What would *you* do? We suppose to apologize that we have better technologies? We suppose to apologize that the arabs chose to invest their money in weapons and death? BTW as we speak, Israel provides electricity to gaza.. So don't believe to every lie you hear. don't stand with those who want their women and children to die so they will have horrible photos to show you. Stand with us. We just want to live our lives.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Israel hit a hospital, which they accuse Hamas of storing weaponry in it.

But wait, that's not all.

Apparently news sources report that the hospital in question that got hit was one that Israel suggested as a safe zone for Palestinians to stay away from the fighting.

Yikes.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Israel hit a hospital' date=' which they accuse Hamas of storing weaponry in it.

But wait, that's not all.

Apparently news sources report that the hospital in question that got hit was one that Israel suggested as a safe zone for Palestinians to stay away from the fighting.

Yikes.[/quote']

If true then that goes against the Geneva Convention.

Big if though. Hard to know what to believe

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Re: The Politics Thread

Whilst you have to be careful what you see and listen to on social media' date='

-------------------------------------------------

As for the situation in Ukraine, I'm seriously worried. [/quote']

Et tu Rugger?, what a bizarre post. in one breath you acknowledge the terrorist nature of Hamas and the flagrant misinformation pedled on the worlds social media but in the next you accuse Israel of genocide?. Help me out here please Rugger, when does genocide start nowadays?, ten deaths?, hundred? thousand?, 6 million?...what a ridiculous misuse of a word that should be confined to the most vilest of acts that humanity can commit.

So if as you say Hamas are terrorists why should any nation tolerate such ongoing aggression without reacting?, was it right we stood up to the IRA?, or should we have just sighed and let those murderous swine continue bombing pubs etc?...Its all quite a contradiction don't you think?, still what a revealing conversation this is turning out to be, and whilst i don't count you in with our resident Jew ( sorry) Zionest haters, i am quite shocked by your confused logic. :confused:

Russia?..You are worried ? why?, nothing will come of this. Turn the gas off and we like the rest of Northern Europe will soon forget about flight whatever number it was, and of course teh PL starts soon and we have the next series of '' I'm a celebrity get me out of here '' to look forward to. Take it from me Rugger, the hard fought victory that Thatcher and Reagan won over those barbarians in the good old USSR was lost with the unbridled EU expansion and the election of the most pathetic US president in history. As the ever insightful Safir suggests we will now reap the seeds taht we have sown, both in Europe and when Iran gets its nuclear weapons in the middle East.

I want to say something as an Israeli (And i'm sorry for my bad English).

No need to apologise for your English Divir its excellent' date=' in fact come to think of it, its better than most of my countrymens. How nice it is to see a post from Israel and my sympathies for the terrible loss's your brave young men of the IDF have suffered in the last few days and i pray that their sacrifice has not been in vain.[/color']

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Re: The Politics Thread

Big conk, the world of war is not black and white. Whilst I acknowledge the existence and nature of Hamas, that should not condemn hundreds of Palestinian women and children civilians to death. Equally, that does not mean that I am siding with either Palestine or Israel.

Anyone with any knowledge of the Middle East will know that this conflict has been raging for thousands of years. I didn't say Israel are guilty of genocide but simply that if things don't improve soon, then it could be heading that way. I'm not gonna sit here and compare this to Rwanda or Sri Lanka etc, but the Geneva Convention was set up after the huge civilian losses in WWII to protect civilians in future warfare. Included in it are laws regarding breaching medical ceasefires, targeting civilian structures (such as hospitals, schools) and other similar areas. Based on the information I've seen from the News, Israel hasn't exactly been distinguishing between Hamas targets and civilian ones.

As for you pointing out my social media point, it works both ways. No doubt that Hamas and Israel are both putting out propaganda through mediums like twitter that go across the world incredibly fast. That's something that we haven't seen much of in other conflicts, and as such we do need to be careful what we believe, but like I say it works both ways.

One thing that is disgusting is Israelis sitting on the hilltops above Gaza and watching the bombardment like this is some kind of spectator sport. Animals.

As for the situation in Ukraine, frankly Russia and Putin petrify me. I get the feeling every time I see him that he's just waiting for an excuse to start a war. That feeling will be even worse once Iran gets it's nuclear arsenal.

Good news though overnight from Ukraine. News reporting that the black box and bodies are on their way back to Amsterdam. Hopefully for the sake of the families of the victims, the truth can be found sooner rather than later. It's easy to forget them in the middle of all this.

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Re: The Politics Thread

As for you pointing out my social media point' date=' it works both ways. No doubt that Hamas and Israel are both putting out propaganda through mediums like twitter that go across the world incredibly fast. That's something that we haven't seen much of in other conflicts, and as such we do need to be careful what we believe, but like I say it works both ways.

[/quote']

Not much of coverage favorable to Israel exists in European media, it's pretty much all pro-Palestine. No wonder we have hordes of teens sympathetic to the Palestine cause and cursing the Israelis. Obviously it stems from humanistic empathy which is the natural reaction when you don't tell them about the issue. It's all about the media maximizing shock value - *if it bleeds it leads*.

The American media just says nothing instead of loudly trumpeting Israeli policy (as you might a country with an interest at stake like the US to act - probably because despite the strong presence of a Jewish lobby, there's also a strong presence of people who absolutely hate Jews. So I guess it balances out).

As for the situation in Ukraine, frankly Russia and Putin petrify me. I get the feeling every time I see him that he's just waiting for an excuse to start a war. That feeling will be even worse once Iran gets it's nuclear arsenal.

Not really, war doesn't serve his interests and might instead cause someone else to challenge him internally. However as EU and NATO were moving eastwards, he had to start acting tough. 1) because he believes in it, but 2), more importantly, he could hardly do anything else to retain respect domestically

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Re: The Politics Thread

I find it strange how anyone can take a side. Both Israel and Hamas have broken multiple ceasefires, started battles within the overall conflict and killed several civilians. Going back thousands of years to find out who started it in the first place is nonsensical; they've had loads of time to sit down and come to a peaceful agreement. I honestly couldn't care less what comes of it. Obviously hope that they stop firing missiles at each other but I don't get the impression that any intervention on the UK's part would be at all productive.

The Ukraine conflict is being portrayed very similarly. From reading our media you'd assume that Putin was a despot. In fact, he's had a democratically elected allay usurped through a coup sponsored by the EU and USA and, IMO, has a right to be hacked off. Annexing Crimea could also be considered a democratic decision following the vote staged there post revolution and the pro-Russia general election results there throughout history.

The plane incident is tragic, but clearly accidental and I think you have to question why the area wasn't a no fly zone. If you were taking a flight would you have been happy going over Ukraine at the moment?

And is Russia supplying rebels with arms any different to the US supplying Israel with arms?

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Re: The Politics Thread

Very different here. All pro-Israel.

Imagine the Germans saying anything against Israel' date=' all hell would break loose :eek:[/quote']

Even neutrals stick out more when our eyes are used to seeing pro-Palestine stuff. I just don't have a vested interest in media's shock angle so I'll dish out the truth (that everyone in international politics more or less knows already). The media obviously have very little interest in the truth, they're only interested in page hits and ad revenue.

Same with Russia/Ukraine, not completely slamming Putin as a psychopath sticks out and looks like Putin-apologism. Which I'm certainly not, and very much don't want to see Russia create a regional hegemony (I'm a Finn for god sakes...)

Crimea didn't have to happen, but given what happened before - with the ousting of Yanukovich, Putin was always going to rally up some nationalism by saying the West was further threatening them. On the back of that nationalism, it was possible to annex Crimea.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Just reading the last few pages I think a couple of posters are just way too naive even borderline stupid. How can someone applaud Israelis for killing innocent Palestinians is just beyond me. Think a lot of people just confuse things, just get a perspective duh bashing Israel is not equivalent to bashing Jews at all. Heck, even a lot of Jews are against what Israel's been doing.

There's nothing wrong with Judaism or Islam or Christianity, all basically teach the same thing which is the message of peace, its the scum who use these religions to their own facility and the naive people with those stupid stereotypes that jump on the ship way too quickly that ruin it for everyone else. Again, how can someone advocate the merciless killing of Palestinians just because they're Muslims is beyond me, more so when so many of them don't even have a connection with hamas and many of those killed are infants who don't even know the meaning of hamas israel or palestine. I don't know if hamas is a terrorist organisation or not , it's just not an excuse enough to kill those hundreds of innocent Palestinians. Likewise anyone killing a Jew just because of their origin is an equally despicable act.

And is Russia supplying rebels with arms any different to the US supplying Israel with arms?

This.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Big conk' date=' the world of war is not black and white. Whilst I acknowledge the existence and nature of Hamas, that should not condemn hundreds of Palestinian women and children civilians to death. Equally, that does not mean that I am siding with either Palestine or Israel.

Anyone with any knowledge of the Middle East will know that this conflict has been raging for thousands of years. I didn't say Israel are guilty of genocide but simply that if things don't improve soon, then it could be heading that way. I'm not gonna sit here and compare this to Rwanda or Sri Lanka etc, but the Geneva Convention was set up after the huge civilian losses in WWII to protect civilians in future warfare. Included in it are laws regarding breaching medical ceasefires, targeting civilian structures (such as hospitals, schools) and other similar areas. Based on the information I've seen from the News, Israel hasn't exactly been distinguishing between Hamas targets and civilian ones.

As for you pointing out my social media point, it works both ways. No doubt that Hamas and Israel are both putting out propaganda through mediums like twitter that go across the world incredibly fast. That's something that we haven't seen much of in other conflicts, and as such we do need to be careful what we believe, but like I say it works both ways.

One thing that is disgusting is Israelis sitting on the hilltops above Gaza and watching the bombardment like this is some kind of spectator sport. Animals.

As for the situation in Ukraine, frankly Russia and Putin petrify me. I get the feeling every time I see him that he's just waiting for an excuse to start a war. That feeling will be even worse once Iran gets it's nuclear arsenal.

Good news though overnight from Ukraine. News reporting that the black box and bodies are on their way back to Amsterdam. Hopefully for the sake of the families of the victims, the truth can be found sooner rather than later. It's easy to forget them in the middle of all this.[/quote']

Yet more contradiction Rugger?, perhaps the heat is affecting your ability to articulate your point?, because I for one am struggling to understand just what you mean?. Now you might not have accused Israel of genocide but you damn well implied it, but at teh same time you admit this is no Rwanda etc, therefore is it genocide or not?..perhaps its a mini genocide?. Clearly innocents are dying ( as in all wars) and whilst you accept media manipulation by the anti Jewish brigade, you take it upon yourself to inform us of the injustice of it all, you further imply that Israel are targeting hospitals and such like?. And as for gleeful Isreals sitting on hilltops watching the destruction unfold, are you telling me you have never slowed down at a road traffic accident in the hope of seeing a decapitated head rolling down the road?....and this whole Putin thing of yours, God knows what you would have been like during the good old days of the cold war?:eek:

Jokowi has been elected as the president of Indonesia. Beating former military general Prabowo' date=' who "withdrew" before the results were announced.

It is good news for the neighbouring countries.[/quote']

..lets see if he makes 6 months first.

Very different here. All pro-Israel.

Imagine the Germans saying anything against Israel' date=' all hell would break loose :eek:[/quote']

oh i don't know, apparently the holocaust was just a minor genocide, those wicked Jews ( sorry i mean Zionests) have been playing it up for years..who knows according to many highly respected historians it may not even have happened.:rolleyes:

..that said i think its time you Germans did start punching your weight on the international stage, you can't keep leaving it to us and teh Yanks ..we tend to make a terrible mess of things.:o

I find it strange how anyone can take a side. Both Israel and Hamas have broken multiple ceasefires' date=' started battles within the overall conflict and killed several civilians. Going back thousands of years to find out who started it in the first place is nonsensical; they've had loads of time to sit down and come to a peaceful agreement.[/quote']

Which strangely brings us back to the very start of the conversation as Hazard or was it Halstinkio ? joyfully shared the latest lies from his heros Max Blumenthal ( CRITICALLY ACCLAIMED :D) book. You probably didn't read the post but it revolved around Isreal tank columns reversing over the prone bodies of innocent Arab children blah blah blah.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Which strangely brings us back to the very start of the conversation as Hazard or was it Halstinkio ? joyfully shared the latest lies from his heros Max Blumenthal ( CRITICALLY ACCLAIMED :D) book. You probably didn't read the post but it revolved around Isreal tank columns reversing over the prone bodies of innocent Arab children blah blah blah.

I caught the gist. But then your argument was staunchly pro Israel which had the same arguments on the other foot. IMO, both are as bad as each other.

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Re: The Politics Thread

I caught the gist. But then your argument was staunchly pro Israel which had the same arguments on the other foot. IMO' date=' both are as bad as each other.[/quote']

Stuart you wound me, whilst i have made no secret of my pro Isreal stance, all i did was offer a factual narrative to counter a singularly one sided view of history. I have noted how many responses here have focused on the irrelevance of the past in the whole Arab/Israeli thing, but i feel that misses a very pertinent point. Namely just what a role the revisionists play in todays conflict, by rewriting the past they seek to re-enforce their own vision of the future. A point that has been identified here by the one sided media coverage in the UK and the ridiculously ill informed Twitter posts depicting images from past and completely unrelated conflicts. :)

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Re: The Politics Thread

Palestinians won't begin to see improvement in relations until they sever themselves from Hamas. About as likely as my lotto numbers coming up twice sadly. The coalition 'government' is a step in the right direction.

Re: MH17, good to see America taking a stance against Russia. Not like they've shot down a civilian airliner or supplied foreign militia with heavy weaponry and training before. Jesus please us...

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Re: The Politics Thread

I caught the gist. But then your argument was staunchly pro Israel which had the same arguments on the other foot. IMO' date=' both are as bad as each other.[/quote']

While our dear Longnose goes a bit overboard, it wasn't nearly as bad as the pro-Palestine drivel that came before it. Their stuff was simply pure garbage in terms of considering what the issue is about and how a peace might be achieved. Or in other words, it lacked the facts.

People should seriously do some research from a reliable guide...such as a publication that actually specializes in international politics. Not some nutter conspiracy theorist's blog page.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Just reading the last few pages I think a couple of posters are just way too naive even borderline stupid. How can someone applaud Israelis for killing innocent Palestinians is just beyond me. Think a lot of people just confuse things' date=' just get a perspective duh bashing Israel is not equivalent to bashing Jews at all. Heck, even a lot of Jews are against what Israel's been doing.

[/quote']

Nope, that's not it.

Besides, where are these *couple of posters* commending Israelis for killing Palestines? I certainly am not.

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Re: The Politics Thread

You're being very pernickety Longnose.

I've clarified that whilst I side with no one, and that both sides have done wrong, the sheer number of Palestinian civilians dying is a major concern. And one that the Israelis seem to be showing no remorse or hesitation over.

Also, I don't see how Israelis siting on a hilltop enjoying a bombardment of a trapped nation/area/people is justifiable? From a humanitarian POV that's just sick. War isn't something to be enjoyed.

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Re: The Politics Thread

You're being very pernickety Longnose.

I've clarified that whilst I side with no one' date=' and that both sides have done wrong, the sheer number of Palestinian civilians dying is a major concern. And one that the Israelis seem to be showing no remorse or hesitation over.

Also, I don't see how Israelis siting on a hilltop enjoying a bombardment of a trapped nation/area/people is justifiable? From a humanitarian POV that's just sick. War isn't something to be enjoyed.[/quote']

Enjoyed? Not really.

In their interests? Probably. Pain in the ass to the civilians? Yes but they've gotten used to it and most agree to pay the costs of it.

Feel like Palestine civilians have no say in their suffering? Then tell Hamas to take the damn deal on the table.

Why does war happen? Because that's what happens when neither side feels a negotiation brings them the result they can live with.

Can't we get a cease-fire? Yes that would be nice, and actually holds most of the time. Incidents spike up every now and then and right now we're in the middle of one.

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