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Stuart H

The Politics Thread

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Re: The Politics Thread

Nope' date=' that's not it.

Besides, where are these *couple of posters* commending Israelis for killing Palestines? I certainly am not.[/quote']

If you didn't do such a thing then you must be confident that I wasn't talking about you.

Replying to my whole post altogether would have made more sense rather than just picking one para which obviously only contains half the meaning.

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Re: The Politics Thread

If you didn't do such a thing then you must be confident that I wasn't talking about you.

Replying to my whole post altogether would have made more sense rather than just picking one para which obviously only contains half the meaning.

Well you said people are naive and that criticizing Israel is considered to equate to Jew hating, to which I responded, "no, that's not it". And then I responded to the other part.

I think when the issue is simplified to a purely humanitarian issue, we miss the point. I myself am a humanist, but also understand that international politics is not simply an issue of *who bombs children*, but why there is war and why is it not ending.

PS. Hamas should just take the deal on the table instead of continuing with attrition.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Well, when Hamas continues a guerrilla war and won't take the deal on the table, what do you want Israel to do?

People are forgetting that most times the Israeli army is not in full-scale war, and that right now we're in the middle of a spike.

The other thing is that each party does what it knows. The Israeli army is not going to resort to pure guerrilla warfare/lauching rockets because that's not their military strategy.

What I'm most curious about is why is it OK for Hamas to launch rockets, but not OK for Israel to conduct regular warfare?

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Re: The Politics Thread

What I'm most curious about is why is it OK for Hamas to launch rockets' date=' but not OK for Israel to conduct regular warfare?[/b']

Because Palestine is under occupation?

Ergo Palestinians may achieve their rights (or not) through political, diplomatic or military means. In regards to any 'deal' anything short of full sovereignty is not enough while Hamas is involved. Under international law the 'bombarding' of Israel falls into a shady area re legit warfare.

E: In no way defending Hamas here (although I realise how my post looks - merely pointing out that they have a right to resist through violent means, would be nice is it stopped short of terrorism): no-one can legitimize tunneling into Israel to kidnap/torture Israelis, deliver suicide bombers to cafes and bus stops or bombarding civilian populations with rockets. Also impossible to do the same for Israel's seemingly indiscriminate slaughter of Palestinians.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Because Palestine is under occupation?

Ergo Palestinians may achieve their rights (or not) through political' date=' diplomatic or [i']military[/i] means. In regards to any 'deal' anything short of full sovereignty is not enough while Hamas is involved. Under international law the 'bombarding' of Israel falls into a shady area re legit warfare.

E: In no way defending Hamas here (although I realise how my post looks - merely pointing out that they have a right to resist through violent means, would be nice is it stopped short of terrorism): no-one can legitimize tunneling into Israel to kidnap/torture Israelis, deliver suicide bombers to cafes and bus stops or bombarding civilian populations with rockets. Also impossible to do the same for Israel's seemingly indiscriminate slaughter of Palestinians.

Hamas is free to take the deal on the table and have their state.

If not, Israel is fully entitled to act as they see fitting to their national interest.

Finland was offered a crap deal by the Soviets during World War II, but we took it anyways, and now we have our state.

Swallow your pride, take what you're offered, and move on building a better life for yourselves.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Just reading the last few pages I think a couple of posters are just way too naive even borderline stupid. How can someone applaud Israelis for killing innocent Palestinians is just beyond me..

Well i can only presume you mean me?' date=' although i can't recall applauding ''Israel killing innocent civilians'', Israel defending herself against terrorists, paying tribute to the IDF's skill in limiting civilian deaths, disputing one sided views of history..all yes. Still don't worry i have very thick skin

Whilst i won't question your views about the common values of the worlds religions ( i have argued teh same point both here and elsewhere for years), i think you have missed the crux of much of the discussion[/b']

...just get a perspective duh bashing Israel is not equivalent to bashing Jews at all. Heck, even a lot of Jews are against what Israel's been doing.

Quite, but the when that bashing is undertook by left wing self loathing Jews who continue to make a very nice little living from their lies and distortions one can only wonder what their agenda is?.

the merciless killing of Palestinians just because they're Muslims is beyond me, more so when so many of them don't even have a connection with hamas and many of those killed are infants who don't even know the meaning of hamas israel or palestine. I don't know if hamas is a terrorist organisation or not , it's just not an excuse enough to kill those hundreds of innocent Palestinians. Likewise anyone killing a Jew just because of their origin is an equally despicable act.

Do you really believe that is what is going on here?, surely if Israel were as merciless as you claim then the civilian death rate would be in the tens of thousands by now?. And where do Hamas come into this?, as someone who ( by their own admission) has no knowledge of them as a terrorist organisation, i can only presume you also have no knowledge of any responsibility they may or may not have in the whole conflict...

That kind of suggests to me its you that are somewhat naive, lacking in perspective...or ( with respect) perhaps just a bit borderline thick.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Hamas is free to take the deal on the table and have their state.

If not' date=' Israel is fully entitled to act as they see fitting to their national interest.

Finland was offered a crap deal by the Soviets during World War II, but we took it anyways, and now we have our state.

[b']Swallow your pride, take what you're offered, and move on building a better life for yourselves.[/b]

Dream scenario. Won't happen.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Dream scenario. Won't happen.

Yup, that's why I don't have any sympathy for them anymore. Their citizens sure - and I do sympathize with them and the fact that they're led by imbeciles - but not the Palestine/Hamas mission, it's their own fault. They want to keep the status quo to maintain their own positions within the Palestine ranks so for all I care they can just suck it.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Before someone calls me an anti-semite, I repeat: I have Jewish ancestors and I'm very proud of that heritage.

That's why I painfully recognise that Israel are to blame (almost entirely) for this humanitary tragedy.

Solution: recognise the Palestinian state and return to the pre-1967 borders. Why doesn't this happen? Because Israel feel they're entitled to a Jewish state, rather than an Israeli one. Return to the pre-1967 borders and stop playing the holocaust card, every time people disagree with your policies, Israel! The holocaust was 1 of the most horrifying (if not the most horrifying) chapters of human history. Israel simply have no legitimate argument to justify a settling process and all the suffering that comes with it. The return to the pre-1967 borders would be the ideal solution. Israel would still have their rightful Israeli state and if they want to make it a Jewish one, then go ahead!

Let's just stop this hypocrisy! Palestine (mainly because of the Hamas) aren't angels either, but Israel are clearly the most responsible for this dramatic situation. Stop acting like impreialists!

Of course, most of the media support Israel and people who are too lazy to look for alternative news sources are necessarily going to pick on Palestine. Add to that the huge anti-Islam propaganda from the post 9/11 (antoher heinous historic espisode). It works great with Americans. Lots of them are morons and it tdoesn't take much to make them say: "Them Arabs and Muslims are all terrorists". :o

But more and more Americans (and people from other countries, too) are waking up: the smart ones, mainly. It's hard to think rationally when most of the media is brainwashing you.

This is certainly one of the most complex political topics of our days. That's why I believe people should seek as much information as they can, before talking about this.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Did some more research on the Israel v Palestine issue and it seems like the public on both sides (yes, the civilians) don't really want peace right now.

The incoming new Israeli president is very keen to broker some kind of a peace, but Israeli PM Netanyahu isn't really, and Hamas most definitely isn't interested in any sort of a peace.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Before someone calls me an anti-semite' date=' I repeat: I have Jewish ancestors and I'm very proud of that heritage.

That's why I painfully recognise that Israel are to blame (almost entirely) for this humanitary tragedy.

Solution: recognise the Palestinian state and return to the pre-1967 borders. Why doesn't this happen? Because Israel feel they're entitled to a Hewish state, rather than an Israeli one. Return to the pre-1967 borders and stop playing the holocaust card, every time people disagree with your policies, Israel! The holocaust was 1 of the most horrifying (if not the most horrifying) chapters of human history. Israel simply have no legitimate argument to justify a settling process and all the suffering that comes with it. The return to the pre-1967 borders would be the ideal solution. Israel would still have their rightful Israeli state and if they want to make it a Jewish one, then go ahead!

Let's just stop this hypocrisy! Palestine (mainly because of the Hamas) aren't angels either, but Israel are clearly the most responsible for this dramatic situation. Stop acting like impreialists and do the right thing![/quote']

Hi Pedro :), we have a problem though when even the Palestine public isn't in favor of a peace and Hamas is hardly satisfied with any kind of a peace. Their power stems from force and a peace would leave them in a marginal role in the Palestinian internal hierarchy.

I mean after all, who wants to associate with guerrilla militants if there is no issue to fight over?

Any of Hamas's public statements to the contrary are more or less lies.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Before someone calls me an anti-semite' date=' I repeat: I have Jewish ancestors and I'm very proud of that heritage.

That's why I painfully recognise that Israel are to blame (almost entirely) for this humanitary tragedy.

Solution: recognise the Palestinian state and return to the pre-1967 borders. Why doesn't this happen? Because Israel feel they're entitled to a Hewish state, rather than an Israeli one. Return to the pre-1967 borders and stop playing the holocaust card, every time people disagree with your policies, Israel! The holocaust was 1 of the most horrifying (if not the most horrifying) chapters of human history. Israel simply have no legitimate argument to justify a settling process and all the suffering that comes with it. The return to the pre-1967 borders would be the ideal solution. Israel would still have their rightful Israeli state and if they want to make it a Jewish one, then go ahead!

Let's just stop this hypocrisy! Palestine (mainly because of the Hamas) aren't angels either, but Israel are clearly the most responsible for this dramatic situation. Stop acting like impreialists and do the right thing![/quote']

Well i have Norman ancestors, and i can't stand the bloody French...before you bleat on about reconising the Palestinian state, won't it be more helpful in reconising the Jewish state?. Why doesn't this happen?..because the Arabs will not tolerate such an entity. Holocaust card?..whats that?, I'll presume its that Isreal have a right to state because of the Holocaust?..personally i feel they do, but of course their claims to a homeland go back about 3500 years before WWII. And why the pre-1967 borders? because Obama say's so?, perhaps the Jews are worried their sea routes will become blockaded by Egypt ( as they did pre-1967). I know why not go back to the 1948 borders?..perhaps teh Jews are worried they will be invaded by the collective might of the Arab neighbours? ( as they did in 1948)...and the Jews are to blame are they Pedro?

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Re: The Politics Thread

Hi Pedro :)' date=' we have a problem though when even the Palestine public isn't in favor of a peace and Hamas is hardly satisfied with any kind of a peace. Their power stems from force and a peace would leave them in a marginal role in the Palestinian internal hierarchy.

I mean after all, who wants to associate with guerrilla militants if there is no issue to fight over?

Any of Hamas's public statements to the contrary are more or less lies.[/quote']

I edited my previous post, mate. ;)

I do agree Palestine has to separate itself from Hamas. I think the international community could help there. I honestly believe the vast majority of Palestinians want nothing but peace. Palestinians need to be liberated from Hamas. With time, they would be able to figure out that the solution isn't war.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Well i have Norman ancestors' date=' and i can't stand the bloody French...before you bleat on about reconising the Palestinian state, won't it be more helpful in reconising the Jewish state?. Why doesn't this happen?..because the Arabs will not tolerate such an entity. Holocaust card?..whats that?, I'll presume its that Isreal have a right to state because of the Holocaust?..personally i feel they do, but of course their claims to a homeland go back about 3500 years before WWII. And why the pre-1967 borders? because Obama say's so?, perhaps the Jews are worried their sea routes will become blockaded by Egypt ( as they did pre-1967). I know why not go back to the 1948 borders?..perhaps teh Jews are worried they will be invaded by the collective might of the Arab neighbours? ( as they did in 1948)...and the Jews are to blame are they Pedro?[/color']

Well Dave, I liked the pre-1967 border solution before Obama suggested it.

And the Jewish state (Israel) already exists. It shouldn't have impreialist aspirations, that's all. Therefore, it's bigger than it should be atm.

And the Holocaust has nothing to do with this issue. Absolutely horrifying, yes. But it's an invalid argument here.

And a considerable majority of the UN members have already recognised Palestinian sovereignty. ;)

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Re: The Politics Thread

Well Dave' date=' I liked the pre-1967 border solution before Obama suggested it.

And the Jewish state (Israel) already exists. It shouldn't have impreialist aspirations, that's all. Therefore, it's bigger than it should be atm.

And the Holocaust has nothing to do with this issue. Absolutely horrifying, yes. But it's an invalid argument here.

And a considerable majority of the UN members have already recognised Palestinian sovereignty. ;)[/quote']

...no doubt you did Ped, believe me i for one wouldn't give that fool in the Whitehouse any credence for anything. The point i ( quickly) tried to make that the Arab states will not ( under any circumstances) accept a Jewish state. As for the UN?, come on mate...thats a bloody circus.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Jews hide behind the one thing they can hide behind, which is "God's will". Any possible agreement or disagreement will end with "God's will". Anything in their favour will be "God's will". However, anything against them will be "against God's will". Can you blame the Muslims' decision to switch to Guerrilla warfare to get anything sorted? I sure can't. They are basically fighting for their land which is being invaded (yes, I said invaded) by non-negotiating parasites.

Yes, I said parasites, and yes, this might sound like a modern-day fragment from Mein Kampf (collector's edition), but I'm talking about a region specific group of people here, again with no generalisations being made.

How would you feel if your hometown was being invaded by people who claim that it's theirs because God said so, and are hereby trying to get rid of those who actually have lived there for decades?

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Re: The Politics Thread

16 Important Facts about non-negotiating parasites

1. Israel became a state circa 1030 B.C., more than two millennia before Islam.

2. Arabs from Israel first began to be called “Palestinians” in 1967 by Yasser Arafat and other Arab leaders, two decades after modern Israeli statehood.

3. After conquering the land in about 1250 B.C., Jews ruled it for more than 1,300 years and have maintained a continuous presence there for 3,300 years.

4. For over 3,000 years, Jerusalem was the Jewish capital. It was never the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even under Jordanian rule, (East) Jerusalem was not made the capital, and no Arab leader came to visit it.

5. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in the Bible, but not once is it mentioned in the Qur’an.

6. King David founded Jerusalem; Mohammed never set foot in it.

7. Jews pray facing Jerusalem; Muslims face Mecca. If they are between the two cities, Muslims pray facing Mecca, with their backs to Jerusalem.

8. In 1948, Arab leaders urged their people to leave, promising to cleanse the land of Jewish presence—some 70% of them fled without ever being ordered by Israel to leave, most of those without ever having seen an Israeli soldier.

9. Virtually the entire Jewish population of Muslim countries had to flee as the result of violence and pogroms.

10. Some 650,000 Arabs left Israel in 1948, while about 850,000 Jews were forced to leave Muslim countries.

11. In spite of the vast territories at their disposal, Arab refugees from Palestine were deliberately prevented from assimilating into their host countries. Of 100 million refugees following World War II, they are the only group to have never integrated with their coreligionists. Most of the Jewish refugees from Europe and Arab lands were settled in Israel, a country no larger than New Jersey.

12. There are 22 Arab countries (with 800 times the land mass of Israel), not counting the Palestinian territories. There is only one Jewish state. Arabs started all five wars against Israel, and lost every one of them.

13. The Fatah and Hamas constitutions still call for the destruction of Israel. Israel has agreed under several proposals to cede most of the West Bank and all of Gaza to the Palestinian Authority, and even supported the arming of its police force after the Oslo Accords in 1993.

14. During the Jordanian occupation, Jewish holy sites were vandalized and were off limits to Jews. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian holy sites are accessible to all faiths and maintained in good order at Israel’s expense.

15. Out of 175 United Nations Security Council resolutions up to 1990, 97 were against Israel; out of 690 General Assembly resolutions, 429 were against Israel;

16. The U.N. was silent when the Jordanians destroyed 58 synagogues in the old city of Jerusalem. It remained silent while Jordan systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives, and it remained silent when Jordan enforced apartheid laws preventing Jews from accessing the Temple Mount and Western Wall (Kotel).

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Re: The Politics Thread

...no doubt you did Ped' date=' believe me i for one wouldn't give that fool in the Whitehouse any credence for anything. The point i ( quickly) tried to make that the Arab states will not ( under any circumstances) accept a Jewish state. As for the UN?, come on mate...thats a bloody circus.

[/color']

The Jewish state is already and legitimately there. The Arab states just have to deal with it. I just think it's too big right now.

As for the UN mate, I honestly think it's one of the less crappy international organisations out there. :o

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Re: The Politics Thread

The Jewish state is already and legitimately there. The Arab states just have to deal with it. I just think it's too big right now.

As for the UN mate' date=' I honestly think it's one of the less crappy international organisations out there. :o[/quote']

Yes they do, and ( God Willing :rolleyes:) it will always remain there, but the problem is they won't will they?. And yes while the UN is bad enough, its not quite as bad as the cursed EU...or the department for overseas aid...or the BBC :mad:

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Re: The Politics Thread

Yes they do' date=' and ( God Willing :rolleyes:) it will always remain there, but the problem is they won't will they?. And yes while the UN is bad enough, its not quite as bad as the cursed EU...or the department for overseas aid...or the BBC :mad:[/color']

The EU (the way it's functioning, right now) is a pathetic institution. :o

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Re: The Politics Thread

16 Important Facts about non-negotiating parasites

1. Israel became a state circa 1030 B.C.' date=' more than two millennia before Islam.

2. Arabs from Israel first began to be called “Palestinians” in 1967 by Yasser Arafat and other Arab leaders, two decades after modern Israeli statehood.

3. After conquering the land in about 1250 B.C., Jews ruled it for more than 1,300 years and have maintained a continuous presence there for 3,300 years.

4. For over 3,000 years, Jerusalem was the Jewish capital. It was never the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even under Jordanian rule, (East) Jerusalem was not made the capital, and no Arab leader came to visit it.

5. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in the Bible, but not once is it mentioned in the Qur’an.

6. King David founded Jerusalem; Mohammed never set foot in it.

7. Jews pray facing Jerusalem; Muslims face Mecca. If they are between the two cities, Muslims pray facing Mecca, with their backs to Jerusalem.

8. In 1948, Arab leaders urged their people to leave, promising to cleanse the land of Jewish presence—some 70% of them fled without ever being ordered by Israel to leave, most of those without ever having seen an Israeli soldier.

9. Virtually the entire Jewish population of Muslim countries had to flee as the result of violence and pogroms.

10. Some 650,000 Arabs left Israel in 1948, while about 850,000 Jews were forced to leave Muslim countries.

11. In spite of the vast territories at their disposal, Arab refugees from Palestine were deliberately prevented from assimilating into their host countries. Of 100 million refugees following World War II, they are the only group to have never integrated with their coreligionists. Most of the Jewish refugees from Europe and Arab lands were settled in Israel, a country no larger than New Jersey.

12. There are 22 Arab countries (with 800 times the land mass of Israel), not counting the Palestinian territories. There is only one Jewish state. Arabs started all five wars against Israel, and lost every one of them.

13. The Fatah and Hamas constitutions still call for the destruction of Israel. Israel has agreed under several proposals to cede most of the West Bank and all of Gaza to the Palestinian Authority, and even supported the arming of its police force after the Oslo Accords in 1993.

14. During the Jordanian occupation, Jewish holy sites were vandalized and were off limits to Jews. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian holy sites are accessible to all faiths and maintained in good order at Israel’s expense.

15. Out of 175 United Nations Security Council resolutions up to 1990, 97 were against Israel; out of 690 General Assembly resolutions, 429 were against Israel;

16. The U.N. was silent when the Jordanians destroyed 58 synagogues in the old city of Jerusalem. It remained silent while Jordan systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives, and it remained silent when Jordan enforced apartheid laws preventing Jews from accessing the Temple Mount and Western Wall (Kotel).[/quote']

You almost make them sound holy, don't you?

The thing you've skipped, which is about 99.9 percent of the story, is that we're talking about today the day, not the day when it was formed or who or what came and visited or this or that - to be frank, no one cares about that.

FACT: 19th century Israel had over 80% muslims.

FACT: Zionists are the first extremists to enter the region.

FACT: The Zionists dealt the first blow as to what resulted into a war (very often forgotten by the way).

Those three facts basically tell me enough.

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Re: The Politics Thread

You almost make them sound holy' date=' don't you?

The thing you've skipped, which is about 99.9 percent of the story, is that we're talking about today the day, not the day when it was formed or who or what came and visited or this or that - to be frank, no one cares about that.

FACT: 19th century Israel had over 80% muslims.

FACT: Zionists are the first extremists to enter the region.

FACT: The Zionists dealt the first blow as to what resulted into a war (very often forgotten by the way).

Those three facts basically tell me enough.[/quote']

It was interesting that you mentioned Zionists, mate.

Like in every religion, there are radical followers.

Thing is, Zionists have a lot of power. Many Jews (most of them living outside of Israel) have been claiming Zionism is harming Israel's image internationally. And apparently Zionism goes against basic aspects of Judaism.

These (extremists) are the people who damage every religion's reputation. :(

I'm not a religious person, but I feel sorry for normal followers of a religion, who get bad rep, because of extremist morons.

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Re: The Politics Thread

You almost make them sound holy' date=' don't you?[/quote']

More than happy to deal with present Ani, but its all these others that keep dragging the argument backwards..

They are basically fighting for their land which is being invaded (yes, I said invaded) by non-negotiating parasites.

How would you feel if your hometown was being invaded by people who claim that it's theirs because God said so, and are hereby trying to get rid of those who actually have lived there for decades?

..so lets talk about the present shall we?. A pragmatic chap like you surely recognizes that there can be no lasting settlement in the region until there is acceptance of the state of Israel, correct?. Any thoughts on quite why the Arab league etc won't accept the Jewish presence?. Whilst we are at it, don't you think that the UN and international community should be putting greater pressure on Hamas for the use of civilians as human shields?

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