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Stuart H

The Politics Thread

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Re: The Politics Thread

1. Israel became a state circa 1030 B.C., more than two millennia before Islam.

2. Arabs from Israel first began to be called “Palestinians” in 1967 by Yasser Arafat and other Arab leaders, two decades after modern Israeli statehood.

3. After conquering the land in about 1250 B.C., Jews ruled it for more than 1,300 years and have maintained a continuous presence there for 3,300 years.

So, judging from your logic, the "First Nations/Aboriginals/etc." should own the Americas + what is now Oceania because they were in these lands way before the bloody Europeans, were first called "First Nations/Aboriginals/etc." after the Europeans came (I believe), and that they ruled it after "conquering" the land a long time ago and have maintained continuous presences in these regions for millennia?

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Re: The Politics Thread

More than happy to deal with present Ani' date=' but its all these others that keep dragging the argument backwards..[/color']

No need to do it with me then too. :) I look at everything from a day to day basis, which is basically the only way a judgement can be passed. My nation was once considered to be destined for worldwide greatness, until a certain group of people derailed everything, which has basically left my country in it's current state. If I see a rape on the news the next day, do I blame it on what happened X-amount of years ago? No, because there is simply no point in bringing back the past.

..so lets talk about the present shall we?. A pragmatic chap like you surely recognizes that there can be no lasting settlement in the region until there is acceptance of the state of Israel' date=' correct?. Any thoughts on quite why the Arab league etc won't accept the Jewish presence?. Whilst we are at it, don't you think that the UN and international community should be putting greater pressure on Hamas for the use of civilians as human shields?[/color']

Why should there be an acceptance as long as there is no acceptance in every other single facet of this discussion? The Muslims won't accept the Israeli state in the same way that the Jews don't accept the Palestine state. But wait, who were the most recent inhabitants before this broke out? Exactly.

What would that mean then? Well, if you ask me (which I guess you won't be doing in the near future), I would expect the Jews to be the first one to sacrifice something in order to get some form of peace in this conflict.

And again, Western organisations are absolutely hopeless in tracking down the focal point of a conflict and actually resolving it, and what you suggest really sums up the way they think. Why would anyone be bothered as to why so many lives are being lost if it's inevitable as long as there are still disputes on the highest level? And the last thing this 'game' needs is a referee.

Make the top level form some agreement and even if it means that there were to be a huge wall between both groups of people, at least groups like the Hamas will go extinct in a matter of time. Yet again, I do not agree with what groups like the Hamas are doing, or any violence for that matter, but no human is alike. And bearing that in mind, can you blame them?

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Re: The Politics Thread

I haven't been on the forum for the past couple of days' date=' but there's so much drivel being posted on here, especially from one particular chap. I'll start posting once it's calmed down a bit.[/quote']

Oh joy, more quotes from good old Max's book of self hate, but beware Halstino the general concensus appears to be we have moved on from causes etc to solutions...

“Because there is absolutely no way for Jewish people in Israel/Palestine to become indigenized under the present order, and that’s really what has to happen. You have to be willing to be a part of the Arab world, because you’re living in the Arab world. If you don’t, then you have to maintain this system and continue to harden the present system.”

So' date=' judging from your logic, the "First Nations/Aboriginals/etc." should own the Americas + what is now Oceania because they were in these lands way before the bloody Europeans, were first called "First Nations/Aboriginals/etc." after the Europeans came (I believe), and that they ruled it after "conquering" the land a long time ago and have maintained continuous presences in these regions for millennia?[/quote']

Don't be bloody ridiculous, I'm British, no i'm merely contesting Ani's point that the Jews are somehow considered invaders in a land they which they could legitimately claim historical and religious ownership.

...besides we didn't conquer anyone, we spread enlightenment.

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Re: The Politics Thread

...besides we didn't conquer anyone' date=' we spread enlightenment.[/color']

Oh dear God, the stench of delusion is almost choking me now.

And it's almost a double whammy considering how British people mostly are the first to admit that their ancestors were absolute *insert swear word of any magnitude*.

Next thing you'll be defending all their colonisations.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Oh dear God' date=' the stench of delusion is almost choking me now.

And it's almost a double whammy considering how British people mostly are the first to admit that their ancestors were absolute *insert swear word of any magnitude*.

Next thing you'll be defending all their colonisations.[/quote']

...give me the luxury of historical context, then yes i could happily..:)

The North Korean government would like to hire you as a propaganda specialist.

...;)

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Re: The Politics Thread

You know, we'd like for Russia to return Viipuri, Kakisalmi, Sortavala, and Petsamo. Guess why Russia won't give it to us? Because they're about 100x bigger than us and can tell us to sod off.

It's as if having present ownership or being a big country counts for nothing....

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Re: The Politics Thread

If Palestine really wants a better deal, what I'd recommend they do is take whatever Israel will give them, then start growing their economy to the point where they are much bigger than Israel, and then start making demands for more land. That's how international politics works.

Nobody is giving you free land in negotiations because both sides will argue they have the rightful owners of that piece of land.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Hamas rockets lead to more votes to anti-Palestine parties in Israel, especially to parties in southern Israeli cities that are within the rockets' range.

How does the threat of becoming a victim of terrorism affect voting behavior? Localities in southern Israel have been exposed to rocket attacks from the Gaza Strip since 2001. Relying on variation across time and space in the range of rockets, we identify the effect of this threat on voting in Israeli elections. We first show that the evolution of the rockets’ range leads to exogenous variation in the threat of terrorism. We then compare voting in national elections within and outside the rockets’ range. Our results suggest that right-wing vote-share is 2 to 6 percentage points higher in localities that are within the range– a substantively significant effect. Unlike previous studies that explore the role of actual exposure to terrorism on political preferences and behavior, we show that the mere threat of an attack affects voting. -

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2014/07/how-do-rocket-threats-affect-israeli-voting-behavior.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+marginalrevolution%2Ffeed+%28Marginal+Revolution%29#sthash.EZtxRSbq.dpuf

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Re: The Politics Thread

Re. bombing of the UNRWA School/Shelter - So basically, the IDF says that they simultaneously tried their absolute damnedest to not hurt anyone, but also that after 3 hours they had literally no moral choice but to explode the school-turned-refugee-shelter? Hmmm.

No, wait. The first part they admitted, the second part they blamed on a Qassam. Which means they're saying Hamas created the most effective rocket in their history and fired it at themselves. emot-jerkbag.gif

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Re: The Politics Thread

However' date=' I find it all rather childish that you two (and likely the parties involved in this conflict) were going back 50-60 years in history in order to determine who threw the first stone. This is hardly going to help, is it?[/quote']

We’re not arguing over who threw the first stone. We’re arguing over the Zionist narrative (which has been debunked due to the new emergence of evidence), which portrays the Arabs as “Goliath” and the Jews as “David”.

Longnose is adamant that’s the truth, despite evidence suggesting that it’s in fact the contrary. He calls those Jews who challenge the narrative as “self-hating” or those who are not Jewish, like myself, as “Jew-hating”. Now that’s what you call childish.

XnO4gy8dQIc

Careful with the *zeal*' date=' either way[/quote']

A number of Palestinians, as well as foreign journalists that I follow on Twitter, who are covering the conflict, have warned not to trust the pictures, unless it comes from a reliable source. Most of these pictures are indeed recycled or from other conflicts, but as Mullan rightly mentioned, similar things are happening to the people of Gaza.

What in your (opinion) would it take to solve the Arab/ Israeli problem?..

I can't see the problem being solved I'm afraid in the current climate. It was Netanyahu and his government that killed the peace talks with Abbas that were shepherded by John Kerry. The Americans won’t exactly say this out on-the-record, but they will off-the record.

If only the rest of the worlds leaders had a pair of balls...... Impose sanctions against Israel for derailing the peace talks. But they'd probably be seen as anti-Semitic by you and your fellow loons, wouldn't they? :rolleyes:

-----

As for the two quotes you posted:

Quote 1 - First bit of evidence that’s emerged to somewhat prove that rockets are hidden in public buildings, even though that particular school was vacant. The UNRWA describes the incident as "the first of it's kind" (It's also worth mentioning that the UN Goldstone Report in 2009 found no evidence to suggest that weapons were concealed). It still doesn't justify them targeting other schools. Also, this story dispels notion that Hamas deliberately hide weapons in active public building to increase civilian deaths.

The only "evidence" that the Israeli's had was those terrible infographics created by their propaganda department. Speaking of which, the IDF fabricated images to justify bombing the al-Wafa hospital. It's not the first time the Israeli's have done that either, they've doctored images and videos in the past.

The Israeli's have long made false claims of the Palestinian militants misusing the UNRWA schools. Channel 2 news had to correct false claims that rockets were fired from their schools during Operation Cast Lead and the IDF had to hide a false video showing militants firing rockets from the school.

Anyway back to the hidden weapons. What other alternative do they have? The Palestinians don't have any military capacity at all, since they're not recognized as an independent, sovereign state. They can't build barracks, ammunition storage facilities etc.

Quote 2 - It's self explanatory don't you think? You can see why from the link embedded on "killed the peace talks".

Along with that' date=' 15 are confirmed dead after Israel hits a UN School.[/quote']

RIP. :( It's not the first time the IDF have attacked UNRWA schools. These following tweets from Richard Engel of NBC News will shock you:

UNRWA spokesman, “Precise co-ordinates of the UNRWA shelter in Beit Hanoun had been formally given to the Israeli army”
UNRWA spox: Over the course of the day UNRWA tried 2 coodinate with the Israeli Army a window for civilians 2 leave & it was never granted”.
UNRWA chief tells us agency was not given any warning before strikes on school.
UNRWA had been coordinating with Israel to evacuate families from school when strikes happened. Israel knew location, UNRWA chief says
School hit was a designated shelter. UNRWA says it formally conveyed its location to Israeli forces 12 times, including at 10:56AM tdy.
UNRWA says it has "no evidence to suggest that" school was used by militants as human shields

Sounds like it was deliberately targeted (no surprises). But this is just too funny:

IDF suggests Hamas rocket/rockets hit school. it would mean five inaccurate rockets all hit a small location in rapid succession. likely?

LOL. They're just as bad as the North Korean propaganda machine.

Jew hater Halstinho

Hahaha. ✊✊✊?

With respect Allan' date=' thats as limp as last week lettuce, and demonstrates just the childlike naivety the Hamas terrorists rely on to foster misplaced sympathy in the West.[/color']

That comment is similar to Netanyahu's comment of Hamas using “telegenically dead children” to further “their cause.” He added that for Hamas, “The more the dead, the better". What a sick individual.

Mullan made some good points, whilst you've posted utter crap.

Et tu Rugger?' date=' what a bizarre post. in one breath you acknowledge the terrorist nature of Hamas and the flagrant misinformation pedled on the worlds social media but in the next you accuse Israel of genocide?. Help me out here please Rugger, when does genocide start nowadays?, ten deaths?, hundred? thousand?, 6 million?...what a ridiculous misuse of a word that should be confined to the most vilest of acts that humanity can commit.[/b']

Over the years, Israel have committed crimes which amount to genocide.

So if as you say Hamas are terrorists why should any nation tolerate such ongoing aggression without reacting?' date=' was it right we stood up to the IRA?, or should we have just sighed and let those murderous swine continue bombing pubs etc?...Its all quite a contradiction don't you think?, still what a revealing conversation this is turning out to be, and whilst i don't count you in with our resident Jew ( sorry) Zionest haters, i am quite shocked by your confused logic. :confused:[/color']

Your logic is even more confusing. Since it's a well know FACT (which you continue to deny as you've got your head lodged far up your arse) that the Israeli's expelled the Palestinians', committed massacres etc, why should they not react to the continuing ethnic cleansing? Don't they have the right to defend themselves from the terrorist group known as the IDF?

Whilst we are at it' date=' don't you think that the UN and international community should be putting greater pressure on Hamas for the use of civilians as human shields?[/color']

How can they when the evidence suggests they haven’t? The UN Goldstone report, HRW and Amnesty International have found no evidence to suggest Hamas have been using human shields. On the contrary, the IDF have.

Two IDF soldiers charged with using 9-year-old 'human shield' in Gaza war.

1256368345israel_human_shields.jpg

Israel_13_year_old_boy-300x246.jpg

An Israeli news outlet used a clip to show that Hamas was using human shields. It turns out it wasn't Hamas at all, the clip was in fact shot in Syria.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Which strangely brings us back to the very start of the conversation as Hazard or was it Halstinkio ? joyfully shared the latest lies from his heros Max Blumenthal ( CRITICALLY ACCLAIMED :D) book. You probably didn't read the post but it revolved around Isreal tank columns reversing over the prone bodies of innocent Arab children blah blah blah.

Oh sorry' date=' I wasn't aware you were a respected author, journalist or a historian. I confused you for an old troll.

Hero? I wouldn't say he's my hero. Far from it. Seems like a nice guy though.

Stuart you wound me, whilst i have made no secret of my pro Isreal stance, all i did was offer a factual narrative to counter a singularly one sided view of history.

Factual?! One sided?! You've got to me kidding me.

It's not a fact anymore as the notion has been debunked due to the emergence of new evidence, and the original notion is incredibly one sided. It's still accepted in Israel and being taught in schools. Does who challenge it are labeled as anti-Semitic or if they're Jewish, self-hating Jews.

Quite' date=' but the when that bashing is undertook by left wing self loathing Jews who continue to make a very nice little living from their lies and distortions one can only wonder what their agenda is?.[/color']

Hahaha, you really are pathetic.

16 Important Facts about non-negotiating parasites

More like' date=' here's some rubbish I've copied from the Internet without checking. Some of these clearly stand out as false.

Very different here. All pro-Israel.

Imagine the Germans saying anything against Israel, all hell would break loose :eek:

Indeed. The Jews still loathe the Germans. They'd rather drive a Saab than a Mercedes, that's how much they hate Germany.

It annoys me seeing people on twitter/Facebook proclaiming Israel to be worse than Hitler's Germany when they know nothing about the area or history of the conflict

I'd say there as worse as them. There are a number of similarities with the Zionist regime and the Nazi regime.

I find it strange how anyone can take a side. Both Israel and Hamas have broken multiple ceasefires' date=' started battles within the overall conflict and killed several civilians. Going back thousands of years to find out who started it in the first place is nonsensical; they've had loads of time to sit down and come to a peaceful agreement. I honestly couldn't care less what comes of it. Obviously hope that they stop firing missiles at each other but I don't get the impression that any intervention on the UK's part would be at all productive.[/quote']

It was actually Israel who broke the 2012 ceasefire. They broke it over 400 times. Whereas Hamas, you guys will find this surprising, would try to keep the ceasefire intact by curbing the missiles shot by others.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=en&q=cache%3AzUQ3_HKtY4cJ%3Awww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2F21bafe48-a38b-11e3-88b0-00144feab7de.html&btnG=#axzz38T5iCUD1

Israel didn't want peace. It was until 1993 they signed they first peace agreement with the Palestinians where the Oslo Accords were signed. Many Israeli's opposed the signing of the deal as they didn't want the occupied land going to the Palestinians. As a result, the Israeli PM at that time, Yitzhak Rabin was quite unpopular (he was even compared to a Nazi :confused:) two years later, he was assassinated. It's also worth mentioning that Netanyahu, who was the leader of the opposition at the time, opposed the Olso Accords.

This video here is a must watch if you want to learn the basics of the creation of Israel and the conflict. That guy is Miko Peled (who Longnose labelled him as a "self-hating Jew"). His grandfather was one of the founding fathers of Israel, his father was a IDF general, who later became a peace activist. His niece died in a suicide attack, and instead of blaming the perpetrator, he, his sister and his brother-in-law blamed the regime. Good for them. :)

etXAm-OylQQ

I know it's long, but plug your earphones in and listen.

Nope. Most of it is because neither side wants to take the deal that's on the table.
Then tell Hamas to take the damn deal on the table.
PS. Hamas should just take the deal on the table instead of continuing with attrition.
Well' date=' when Hamas continues a guerrilla war and won't take the deal on the table, what do you want Israel to do?[/quote']

Hamas actually offered a ceasefire deal with reasonable terms. I’ve posted if before. Netanyahu rejected the proposal as he stated that a ceasefire wasn’t on his agenda. Here’s the ceasefire proposal:

2L7FI6TCwPk

You have to say it's reasonable.

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/report-israel-conditions.html

10 year ceasefire without asking for a state. Why aren't Israel accepting it?

Funnily enough, Sissy (yes, I've deliberately spelled it like that) came up with a ceasefire which was accepted by the Israeli's but it wasn't talked straight with Hamas. Hamas have stated they have no direct contact with Israel.

Now you see which side is more willing for peace?

While our dear Longnose goes a bit overboard' date=' it wasn't nearly as bad as the pro-Palestine drivel that came before it. Their stuff was simply pure garbage in terms of considering what the issue is about and how a peace might be achieved. Or in other words, it lacked the facts.

People should seriously do some research from a reliable guide...such as a publication that actually specializes in international politics. Not some nutter conspiracy theorist's blog page.[/quote']

:confused:

C’mon Safir, you know I like you (not in that way, sorry to disappoint you :P), you’re one of the most academically gifted guys I know, but that post was rubbish.

It didn’t lack facts and the sources were in fact reliable.

E: In no way defending Hamas here (although I realise how my post looks - merely pointing out that they have a right to resist through violent means' date=' would be nice is it stopped short of terrorism): no-one can legitimize tunneling into Israel to kidnap/torture Israelis, deliver suicide bombers to cafes and bus stops or bombarding civilian populations with rockets. Also impossible to do the same for Israel's seemingly indiscriminate slaughter of Palestinians.[/quote']

These are my views as well.

-----

Daniel tired, now Daniel sleep. Watch the video if you want to understand the conflict. No doubt Dave (Longnose) would loathe him as a self-hating Jew because he has a agenda against the ethic cleansing which never happened, despite evidence telling the contrary, as he wants retire early ($$$). :rolleyes:

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Re: The Politics Thread

C’mon Safir' date=' you know I like you (not in that way, sorry to disappoint you :P), you’re one of the most academically gifted guys I know, but that post was rubbish.

[/quote']

Halstinho, I like you too, so let's have a conversation about the content.

First of all, we need to be on the same page about how international politics works. Unfortunately for the most part it's not about ethics but force, which comes as a disappointment to us Scandinavians, but is more or less obvious to everyone else in the world. Given the circumstances, it's up to Israel to more or less decide what terms they want to give, not for Palestine to determine them. Beggars can't be choosers.

Second, Miko Peled is not the most impartial commentator you can find. He has personal traumas from military service which causes him to view the conflict from a specific lens - a humanist, ethical one which is nice if his job was as a UN peacekeeper, but that fails to encompass the fundamental concepts of international politics.

Third, listening to a Hamas spokesperson talk about their views is not particularly reliable either.

We need proper sources - big, well-known papers that specialize in international politics. Variety exists but there's a range of general consensus that differs greatly from the one you're presenting, which is why I'd be very suspicious of the statements you've made in favor of Palestine.

To clarify: When I'm talking about reliable sources, I'm not talking about cherry-picking individual sources, but looking at what the consensus opinions in big IR papers are and working from their evidence. Not the other way around where we first make up our minds and then piece together the evidence by looking for things that fit our story.

Also, we definitely have to discount all "evidence from partial papers" (like Mondoweiss - which is known to be anti-Zionist). If it's real evidence, we can link it from The Economist or another equally reputable publication.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Remember the saying "All is fair in love and war"?

International politics looks amoral because it's consequentialist. That's why you can't apply regular societal rules to warfare. You're either disappointed by its harshness or you come up with excessively idealistic theories that don't hold in practice.

There's a strand of international politics that's more idealistic, but that requires there are mutual gains to be made. If you can show, with data, that Israel would benefit by conceding to Palestine demands, then you have a case to make. Otherwise, we're talking about an unrealistic hypothetical, which never happen and are thus a waste of time.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Remember the saying "All is fair in love and war"?

International politics looks amoral because it's consequentialist. That's why you can't apply regular societal rules to warfare. You're either disappointed by its harshness or you come up with excessively idealistic theories that don't hold in practice.

Or like the vast majority of people you're disturbingly apathetic.

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Re: The Politics Thread

seems like they are trying to do a 7-day ceasefire in honour of Eid, but is failing

John Kerry and Ban Ki-Moon, and Egypt and helping in it

EDIT: but, Israeli Foreign Minister says that they might widen the ground operation in Gaza

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Re: The Politics Thread

Or like the vast majority of people you're disturbingly apathetic.

That's your problem, not mine.

If you're apathetic about the world's affairs, that's your privilege, but then it's my privilege to believe that you're pathetic.

On the other hand if you have a keen interest to improve on that, then that would be a redeeming quality.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Remember the saying "All is fair in love and war"?

International politics looks amoral because it's consequentialist. That's why you can't apply regular societal rules to warfare. You're either disappointed by its harshness or you come up with excessively idealistic theories that don't hold in practice.

There's a strand of international politics that's more idealistic' date=' but that requires there are mutual gains to be made. [b']If you can show, with data, that Israel would benefit by conceding to Palestine demands, then you have a case to make.[/b] Otherwise, we're talking about an unrealistic hypothetical, which never happen and are thus a waste of time.

Totally agreed with you. Thats why people "cry" and "cry" when they watch things on TV and talk nonsense. This conflict didn´t began days or weeks ago, this traces back to the WWI era! There is religious, politics, diplomacy, interests involved. People really needs to read rather than watch tv. With this i am not taking a side, i am just saying warfare is not as obvious as people try to do.

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Re: The Politics Thread

That's your problem' date=' not mine.

If you're apathetic about [b']the world's affairs[/b], that's your privilege, but then it's my privilege to believe that you're pathetic.

On the other hand if you have a keen interest to improve on that, then that would be a redeeming quality.

You've generalised massively there.

I, like Spam, feel so disassociated with what's going on in Gaza that the news is all blending into one. I feel like whatever I think or do, both sides will continue to blow each other up and that will never change. Obviously, the death count is horrible, as is the fear that the area instills but it isn't my problem and I really hope the UK doesn't make it its problem.

You only have to look at Iraq to see that intervention doesn't necessarily make things better. Sure, Saddam was a bit of a despot but he was a whole lot better than ISIS. They've just ordered 4 million girls to undergo FGM for no apparent reason. So many zones in that area of the world are so backwards they're like another species.

So yeah, I don't particularly care which group is killing the other group today as tomorrow I know the news will be reporting the retaliation and this the cycle starts over.

I'll concern myself with world affairs that actually concern me, rather than feeling some faux moral obligation to care.

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