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Stuart H

The Politics Thread

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Re: The Politics Thread

Depends on what religion you want to get rid of i suppose?..the vile cult of Islam and corrupt Catholicism ?..yes certainly....Protestantism ?' date=' no [/color'][/b]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation

Protestantism is so more less fundamentally taken then Islam. It's religion which is followed fundamentally that causes issues :o

TBH' date=' I don't really disagree. The peaceful religions are the ones you never hear anything about. I'm rather uninformed but you don't read a lot about Buddhist or Sikh unrest.[/quote']

well they do have unrest....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22356306

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjab_insurgency

All religion has unrest just not as much as Islam it seems :P

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Re: The Politics Thread

well they do have unrest....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22356306

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjab_insurgency

All religion has unrest just not as much as Islam it seems :P

Your first link is from over a year ago and your second has the Sikh militant leader dying in 2007. More or less backs up my point.

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Re: The Politics Thread

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation

Protestantism is so more less fundamentally taken then Islam. It's religion which is followed fundamentally that causes issues :o

Exactly my point Cedd' date=' I'm not going to list the achievements of Protestantism and how it remains the most relevant religion on Earth, but it has evolved (sounds like a contradiction i know) whilst at the same time retained its core message. By its very being the New Testament allows mankind to interpret the scriptures in a way transcends the spiritual straitjacket and man made dogma of say Catholicism and Islam.[/color']

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Re: The Politics Thread

TBH' date=' I don't really disagree. The peaceful religions are the ones you never hear anything about. I'm rather uninformed but you don't read a lot about Buddhist or Sikh unrest.[/quote']
Exactly my point Cedd' date=' I'm not going to list the achievements of Protestantism and how it remains the most relevant religion on Earth, but it has evolved (sounds like a contradiction i know) whilst at the same time retained its core message. By its very being the New Testament allows mankind to interpret the scriptures in a way transcends the spiritual straitjacket and man made dogma of say Catholicism and Islam.[/color']

Can i just say: people who follow Islam are a lot more uneducated then those who follow Islam.

Not because they must be idiots to follow Islam but because on the whole those who believe in Islam and are bought up in manly Islam cultures are less well educated (as poorer countries) than those who are born into a Protestantism country. You dont exactly see intelligent muslims fighting the extremist cause...

Same with all religion/beliefs, those who take it to the extreme are generally stupider...

Your first link is from over a year ago and your second has the Sikh militant leader dying in 2007. More or less backs up my point.

the buddhist islam thing is from over a year ago true but it was like a 30 year civil war ting :P (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/Conflicts-and-the-future-of-Islam-and-Buddhism-in--30238293.html) More recent' date=' if u dont believe :P

...Also this page on conflicts in India seems to say a lot about what religion seems least intergratable (i know its not a word :P )

[url']http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_conflicts_in_India[/url]

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Re: The Politics Thread

No Saf' date=' i'm with the German here, why should the underlying truth about Islam only be spoke about in terms that are palatable to the political classes?. They should mirror our views and believe me Mia sums them up perfectly.[/color']

Same as if I said Arsenal are a bunch of wimps, without breaking down their style of play

"Why is their defense not as well organized as Mourinho's? That's damning evidence for Arsenal simply sucking balls!!!"

Not quite.

Making our arguments foolproof against potential counter-arguments holds us to a standard that's beyond our immediate emotions.

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Re: The Politics Thread

It's a disgusting sort of an entitlement really - just because we think our argument is good, and the opposing side is a bunch of monkeys, it entitles us to not have to make a proper argument anymore?

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Re: The Politics Thread

Depends on what religion you wish to get rid of i suppose?..the vile cult of Islam and corrupt Catholicism ?..yes certainly....Protestantism ?' date=' no [/color']

Would Uganda not be better off without its Protestant led oppression of homosexuals?

The Spanish inquisition and the crusades were represented as a religious wars and in a sense they were but their causes were not religious. In the same way I think the problems of the Middle East have other causes but in a place where everything is articulated through Islam so is the violence.

Think about it, a King who wanted to go to war in the1700s would always sell it, amongst other things, as a good Catholic war or a good protestant war, not matter what the main reasons were. The Romans even took the outcome of a battle as a victory of the winner's chosen god over the losers.

I think the essential problem in the Middle east and in much of Africa is the shape of the countries. When the imperial countries pulled out they left new nations that had been drawn out on a map. When they were in charge they destroyed preexisting power/territorial arrangements for the benefit of centralisation and 'civilisation' these boundaries, sort of like Europe's, would have come about through centuries of violence and would have been in a kind of equilibrium (lets not forget even in 1990 Europe's boundaries were being fought over. But the countries we left were a jumble of different tribes, ethnicities and cultures (often rivals or even sworn enemies).

In a long time liberal society this can be made to work (though I'm sure some people on here would disagree with that), but in places like Uganda or Iraq it was never going to, not for a long time at least. Its worth noting that more successful countries in these areas, such as Botswana, tend to contain fewer (in this case only 1) tribe or culture.

That's my rather tenuous theory, but you only need to look at oil, foreign intervention, poverty, high rates of autocracy, occupation and the stubbornness old ways of doing things exert in the face of globalisation to find non religious causes for much of this conflict .

In a region where almost everyone is Muslim, of course soldiers will be "fighting for Allah" or the enemy will be "non believers" and those selling their wars will frame them in religious terms.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Not tenuous at all Barnaby, historically you are quite correct. The question i would pose is that if ( in an ideal world) the middle East was divided purely in a neat sectarian ( tribal,religious) manner would the conflict stop?, i think not. Islam continues to prove itself incapable of tolerating other ( including other branches of Islam) religions so why would (set) national boundaries change that?.

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Re: The Politics Thread

The issue doesn't lie with religion itself it lies with those who misinterpret it and enforce their twisted views and beliefs on others.

As many Muslims would tell you, Islam is a peaceful religion and 99% of Muslims are disgraced with the actions of the 1%.

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Re: The Politics Thread

The issue doesn't lie with religion itself it lies with those who misinterpret it and enforce their twisted views and beliefs on others.

As many Muslims would tell you' date=' Islam is a peaceful religion and 99% of Muslims are disgraced with the actions of the 1%.[/quote']

Yes that's an opinion that i have held and promoted, partly i suppose to justify past excess's by Christianity but increasingly i have begin to whether that is truly the case?. I think as well the old 99/1% assumption is way off the mark both here in the UK and around the world.

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Re: The Politics Thread

It's all about the prevailing interpretation of the religion of the time, since all religions' essence can be used for good or bad. And the current interpretation of Islam by those in power is horrible (and has been for centuries).

The caricature of Islam’s endemic backwardness is easily dispelled. Between the eighth and the 13th centuries, while Europe stumbled through the dark ages, science thrived in Muslim lands. The Abbasid caliphs showered money on learning. The 11th century “Canon of Medicine” by Avicenna (pictured, with modern equipment he would have relished) was a standard medical text in Europe for hundreds of years. In the ninth century Muhammad al-Khwarizmi laid down the principles of algebra, a word derived from the name of his book, “Kitab al-Jabr”. Al-Hasan Ibn al-Haytham transformed the study of light and optics. Abu Raihan al-Biruni, a Persian, calculated the earth’s circumference to within 1%. And Muslim scholars did much to preserve the intellectual heritage of ancient Greece; centuries later it helped spark Europe’s scientific revolution.

http://www.economist.com/news/international/21570677-after-centuries-stagnation-science-making-comeback-islamic-world-road

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Re: The Politics Thread

Yes that's an opinion that i have held and promoted' date=' partly i suppose to justify past excess's by Christianity but increasingly i have begin to whether that is truly the case?. I think as well the old 99/1% assumption is way off the mark both here in the UK and around the world.[/color']

I honestly do think it's the case. If you take the current crisis in Iraq, the proportion of Muslims that are either associated or sympathise with Islamic State/ISIS is likely to be incredibly low. There's 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. ISIS probably has a few thousand members at most.

The thing I struggle with in regards to religion is that at times, it seems as though the masses follow the leaders of religion so blindly. I'd wager that if the Pope called for westerners to start taking a harder line against Islam, thousands would participate in racial attacks that they wouldn't have even thought about doing before. Like I said, that's one of my big bug bears with religion. Faith is a wonderful thing to have, it can empower you to have confidence and live life, but the blind following and attributing everything good to have happened to religion is another thing. Oh and forcing it upon others.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Well, it's more than 1/99 obviously, but probably less than 50/50 (mostly because of women...men are probably over 50/50)

Then again, looking at Russia, who knows. You'd imagine Russia to be a less fertile ground to harbor extremist thoughts in but they're going forward with a nationalist Putin

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Re: The Politics Thread

The issue doesn't lie with religion itself it lies with those who misinterpret it and enforce their twisted views and beliefs on others.

As many Muslims would tell you' date=' Islam is a peaceful religion and 99% of Muslims are disgraced with the actions of the 1%.[/quote']

I don't buy this anymore. That must be the largest "minority" ever spread over heaps of different countries. It doesn't matter if it's Iraq, Egypt, Iran, Afghanistan, Somalia etc. or countries practicing. Hell, even Turkey is moving only in one direction these days and it ain't the right one.

You find them on a grand scale everywhere, some more extreme, some less extreme. Look how many people practice Sharia law.

There is a good article here. Before somebody complains because it is Wikipedia, every statement is linked to an external source and it is only used for summary purposes.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_-_Shariah

"There are 9 places in the world that still have stoning as a form of legal punishment. Every single one is officially Islamic."

"There are now 13 countries in the world where the state can execute you for being atheist. Every single one is officially Islamic."

Further good research done here; very interesting read. If you can't be arsed reading, scroll through and only have a look at the 2 charts.

http://www.wzb.eu/sites/default/files/u6/koopmans_englisch_ed.pdf

Note: the Muslim data is only from Muslim immigrants in 6 European countries (Germany, France amongst them). It is scary. Imagine the answers to those question in traditionally Muslim countries,

So no, it is not only a 1% minority. I hate this argument as it completely shields everybody from responsibility. There are hundreds of millions of people who practice these things (to a different extent) and condone them.

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Re: The Politics Thread

I don't buy this anymore. That must be the largest "minority" ever spread over heaps of different countries. It doesn't matter if it's Iraq' date=' Egypt, Iran, Afghanistan, Somalia etc. or countries practicing. Hell, even Turkey is moving only in one direction these days and it ain't the right one.

You find them on a grand scale everywhere, some more extreme, some less extreme. Look how many people practice Sharia law.

There is a good article here. Before somebody complains because it is Wikipedia, every statement is linked to an external source and it is only used for summary purposes.

[url']http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_-_Shariah[/url]

"There are 9 places in the world that still have stoning as a form of legal punishment. Every single one is officially Islamic."

"There are now 13 countries in the world where the state can execute you for being atheist. Every single one is officially Islamic."

Further good research done here; very interesting read. If you can't be arsed reading, scroll through and only have a look at the 2 charts.

http://www.wzb.eu/sites/default/files/u6/koopmans_englisch_ed.pdf

Note: the Muslim data is only from Muslim immigrants in 6 European countries (Germany, France amongst them). It is scary. Imagine the answers to those question in traditionally Muslim countries,

So no, it is not only a 1% minority. I hate this argument as it completely shields everybody from responsibility. There are hundreds of millions of people who practice these things (to a different extent) and condone them.

It's still a very small minority.

You can paint this either way if you search for any old data from any old research. I'm not gonna sit here and say Islam isn't responsible for any of this. As far as I'm concerned, Islam is a pretty backward religion in regards to some of its beliefs and laws. However, those who fight under the banner of Islam would find another reason to fight if they weren't Islamic in my opinion.

These kinds of people would fight for fighting's sake. It's an extremely twisted and contorted version of Islam that they preach and it's incredibly unfair to tar all 1.6 billion Muslims around the world with the same brush as these animals.

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Re: The Politics Thread

It's still a very small minority.

You can paint this either way if you search for any old data from any old research. I'm not gonna sit here and say Islam isn't responsible for any of this. As far as I'm concerned' date=' Islam is a pretty backward religion in regards to some of its beliefs and laws. However, those who fight under the banner of Islam would find another reason to fight if they weren't Islamic in my opinion.

These kinds of people would fight for fighting's sake. It's an extremely twisted and contorted version of Islam that they preach and it's incredibly unfair to tar all 1.6 billion Muslims around the world with the same brush as these animals.[/quote']

It's a little too generous to say that Islam is simply misinterpreted.

There's a certain group of people who dislike their lives and choose the militant way to resolve those conflicts. They use Islam as their means to achieve their ends, they're not "misunderstanding the teachings of Islam". If Islam wasn't there, they'd find something else.

Most people in countries where the living conditions suck have a general narrative of complaints within which their complaining falls under when they feel like blaming someone and making excuses for their difficulties (they start with something of merit but gets exaggerated - every minor event gets used to "prove" the existence of the "unique injustice" suffered by their group).

We saw during the World Cup the ugly head of the South American *Dependency Theory* narrative rear its head with the absurd excuses made for Suarez.

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Re: The Politics Thread

There was a Palestinian terrorist organization actually a few decades ago (1970s?) that was tamed by...giving the members wives and kids. lol

People just need a reason to live - that's the vacuum terrorist organizations love to exploit when recruiting members...

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Re: The Politics Thread

The issue doesn't lie with religion itself it lies with those who misinterpret it and enforce their twisted views and beliefs on others.

As many Muslims would tell you' date=' Islam is a peaceful religion and 99% of Muslims are disgraced with the actions of the 1%.[/quote']

Its far more than 1% and what i have the issue with is Islam forcing its beliefs on others and if we dont accept them then we are discriminating against them, well if you want to stay in the uk you should abide by its rules not the rules of islam

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Re: The Politics Thread

These kinds of people would fight for fighting's sake. It's an extremely twisted and contorted version of Islam that they preach and it's incredibly unfair to tar all 1.6 billion Muslims around the world with the same brush as these animals.

Its not a small minority is it?' date=' granted survey's should always be taken with a pinch of salt, but when done correctly they are normally pretty accurate. Even if you factored in a 10% margin of error the figures still provides us with quite shocking results when questioned on views about Homosexuality, Jews and the West. [/color']

Equally on a world stage, overwhelmingly the attitudes displayed in Islamic counties run in an opposite direction to our commonly held beliefs here in Europe. Like Mia i fail to see how and why such clear indications should continue to be ignored and indeed tolerated particularly in the West.

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Re: The Politics Thread

It's a little too generous to say that Islam is simply misinterpreted.

There's a certain group of people who dislike their lives and choose the militant way to resolve those conflicts. They use Islam as their means to achieve their ends' date=' they're not "misunderstanding the teachings of Islam". If Islam wasn't there, they'd find something else.

Most people in countries where the living conditions suck have a general narrative of complaints within which their complaining falls under when they feel like blaming someone and making excuses for their difficulties (they start with something of merit but gets exaggerated - every minor event gets used to "prove" the existence of the "unique injustice" suffered by their group).

We saw during the World Cup the ugly head of the South American *Dependency Theory* narrative rear its head with the absurd excuses made for Suarez.[/quote']

I'm not suggesting Islam is misinterpreted. I'm suggesting that approx. 1/5 of the population of the world isn't stuck in the stone ages and complicit to terrorism.

Its far more than 1% and what i have the issue with is Islam forcing its beliefs on others and if we dont accept them then we are discriminating against them' date=' well if you want to stay in the uk you should abide by its rules not the rules of islam[/quote']

I completely agree. If western Christians went to any country in the Middle East or any country in Northern or Eastern Africa and tried to implement western ideals, social norms and laws then they would likely be killed one way or another. Yet when the other way round, it's considered racist to not acknowledge their ways of life. That makes me sick. If you move to a country, you sacrifice yourself to their laws and way of living and respect it.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Its not a small minority is it?' date=' granted survey's should always be taken with a pinch of salt, but when done correctly they are normally pretty accurate. Even if you factored in a 10% margin of error the figures still provides us with quite shocking results when questioned on views about Homosexuality, Jews and the West. [/color']

Equally on a world stage, overwhelmingly the attitudes displayed in Islamic counties run in an opposite direction to our commonly held beliefs here in Europe. Like Mia i fail to see how and why such clear indications should continue to be ignored and indeed tolerated particularly in the West.

Like you say, I'd take those statistics with a massive pinch of salt. Even if they are true, it's mainly Africa and Asia that provided the extreme results. Those are countries with poorer statistics for reading, writing and general education. As such you'd have to question the survey. As well as this, you don't know who was asked and as such it'd be foolish to assume that those questioned represent an accurate demographic of the general population of those countries. Those populations may also be answering in fear, as the majority of those countries who provided extreme results are under Islamic governments and as such, individuals may fear retribution for answering unfavourably.

Look, don't get me wrong, I'm not pro Islam. Whilst I'm not going to say that the religion is bad, or wrong, or that anyone who practices it is a terrorist; I do recognise that a lot of the problems around the world involving conflicts do stem back to Islam in one way or another. However, I refuse to accept that Islam is the only factor in all of these conflicts. None, or very few, occur in economically well developed countries where education systems provide good schooling nationwide, and as such this has to be linked to the violence throughout the world. Other social variables no doubt have an input.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Seems as though this thread has been a little inactive...

So much has happened since, now it seems as though that "Jihadi John" terrorist who beheaded the American journalist James Foley in Iraq could be a rapper, a British rapper known by his name "L Jinny" who had limited appearances of his music on BBC Radio. His dad is facing life in prison after his alleged role in embassy bombings by al Qaeda in 1998, and his family had lived in a Council 1million home.

Also, that James Foley beheading might have been "staged", somewhat

These barbaric idiotic terrorists are a threat to the world, they must be stopped as soon as possible

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