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Stuart H

The Politics Thread

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Re: The Politics Thread

No you're quite wrong. The reason why we're in an economic mess was because of the global financial crisis (the clue is in the word global). In 1997 Labour inherited a debt of 42% of GDP and a deficit of 3.9% of GDP (not a balanced budget). By the start of the global financial crises in 2008' date=' the debt had fallen to 37% and the deficit had fallen to 2.1%, which is pretty impressive.

[center']ukgs_line.php?title=UK%20National%20Debt%20As%20Percent%20Of%20GDP&year=1997_2014&sname=&units=p&bar=1&stack=1&size=m&spending0=41.81_40.79_38.52_35.38_30.97_30.05_31.15_32.74_35.73_36.90_37.47_38.93_51.97_63.75_69.84_73.24_78.11_80.92&legend=&source=a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a_a[/center]

It's worth noting that the Tories not only argued for even less financial regulation before the financial crisis, but opposed Labour's measures to moderate the recession in 2009.

For more on this matter, I'd suggest you read the Mediamacro myth series by Simon Wren-Lewis who's an economics professor at Oxford University, and a fellow of Merton College:

http://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/mediamacro-myth-1-2010-britain-faced.html

http://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/mediamacro-myth-2-labour-profligacy.html

http://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/mediamacro-myth-3-2007-boom.html

http://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/mediamacro-myth-4-immediate-necessity.html

http://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/mediamacro-myth-5-long-term-plan.html

http://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/mediamacro-myth-6-2013-recovery.html

http://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/mediamacro-myth-7-strong-recovery.html

http://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/mediamacro-myth-8-employment-growth.html

Actually 1997 was not a global financial crisis, it mainly affected Asian countries such as Thailand. The UK was not in a recession in 1997, its GDP growth was 2.6%. Which therefore means that the Asian financial crisis did not really affect the UK at all. Key word is in the Asian.

I'm going to link Wikipedia right now, because I'm too lazy to find something else, but this basically sums up this point for me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Asian_financial_crisis

I'm sorry, but the debt and deficit falling by that little is utterly pathetic, especially during the 2001 era, when the dotcom bubble was in its highest uptick. When the nation is in a period of boom and high economic growth, the nation should be running a surplus, not a deficit. This is why it is not impressive that the Labour government managed to drop the deficit by a little bit. It should have been much better.

A quick look at the American economy would show this. In 1997, it ran a deficit of 0.25% of GDP, but it ran a surplus for a few years before the dotcom bubble burst and its financial markets crashed. But we're not talking about the US economy.

Facts' date=' not quotes Ray.

Unfortunately all parties lie, the Conservatives looked to pass the blame onto Labour and vice versa, the UK population has little to no understanding of the reasons for our economic downturn because they have been lied to by both parties so much that eventually fingers go in ears and everyone picks a side.

The fact is that the UK was caught up in something much bigger than ourselves. No political party would have been able to stop the financial crisis FACT.

The simple fact is that actually people aren't all intelligent enough to form their own opinion, if you listen to reasons some people vote they are awful!

Instead people, desperate for guidance and honesty are constantly misinformed from political sources with agendas for power the fact is the economy back then was like pass the parcel, eventually someone was going to be left holding onto the blame and the music stopped with Labour.

Things were not great under Labour last but I'd struggle to blame them in the same way I wouldn't blame a Conservative government for not being able to fix all the problems in the last 5 years.

It's the lying about the best financial course of action that grates me and ALL parties do it! Which is why our system is so flawed.

Measures like austerity have been proven to be ineffectual in times of low growth, as they limit confidence in spending from the majority, which is what is needed to cause growth. Austerity does however give those with money more control.

However the alternatives by Labour will also not produce the amount of growth they are predicting.

Essentially both major parties are lying about their financial projections which are completely delusional because our economy isn't as simple as that![/quote']

Once again, this is based on Hazard's post that the blame is to go on the Asian financial crisis in 1997 when the Labour party took over. If you really want to blame an economic crisis, then you should have quoted the incidents of Black Wednesday in 1992, although the effects of that were well over by 1997.

I like your point most about people not being intelligent enough to form their own opponent. Although democracy is the best way forward, this is my own and only argument about democracy. It is unbelievable and unacceptable that people with insight and knowledge have the same amount of votes as someone who is mentally incapable and dropped out of school before they finished their GCSEs. There is in no way the latter's opinion should hold as much weight as the former's.

Austerity may be ineffectual during times of low growth, but there is another school of thought to it, mainly by a Harvard professor called Alberto Alesina. Although I don't particularly agree with it for my position as a student of Keynes and Krugman (literally, fantastic professor, astute knowledge of economics, as expected, probably should have turned up to more lectures :o ) remains strong.

This is a quick summary if you want to have a quick look through it.

http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/stories/2010-06-29/keynes-vs-dot-alesina-dot-alesina-who

Since you can't be arsed' date=' why don't you get just post one reputable source to suggest that Labour didn't decrease the debt and deficit to 37% and 2.1% respectively in 2008.

I'll give you a clue: you won't find one.[/quote']

That's not the point, the point is that they didn't do enough. They could have and should have done a lot better given the economic climate that they were given. They had a much better chance of resurrecting the UK's economy than what the Conservatives were handed to them after the most recent election.

This article has some great flaws and uses a lot of obvious truths as an attempt to back up some of its points. Austerity was a necessity' date=' and although it was less effective. Read the following article on the IMF, it's a summary of a paper, but I think it demonstrates why austerity is more effective in certain cases.

[url']http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/01/03/an-amazing-mea-culpa-from-the-imfs-chief-economist-on-austerity/[/url]

The article says to: "Compare the tiny budget deficit in 2006/7 with the much larger deficits under the Conservative government in 1992-4." This is an absurd and stupid comment. For economists, this is absolutely crazy to be doing this. You cannot compare a budget deficit during times of strong economic growth and bullish markets such as in 2006/7 with the period between 1992-4, which was when the economy was recovering from the Black Wednesday crash.

"It was the banking crisis that caused the recession." Wow, I'm sure every economist was absolutely shocked by this amazing revelation that the Independent brought us. Who knew? :rolleyes:

I could actually go on about the current recession, but you guys will get so bored by the second paragraph that you'd rather go outside and watch paint dry. I am taking a relatively interesting class on it taught by a fantastic professor who knows a lot about the subject, and whose insight is amazing too.

There is honestly nothing in that paper that isn't a given. The thing with the paper is that it does nothing, and the facts that they use to point it out do not support their premise, or are just twisting statistics in a favourable measurement.

"Both factors were a result of the recession, and not the cause of it." Yes, and this is where the Conservatives actually get it wrong. The Labour's response to the crisis was correct. Austerity measures were necessary etc.

However, to say that it didn't worsen the downturn is incorrect. In a short-term perspective, it absolutely did worsen the downturn. That's the point of austerity. It is short-term pain for long-term gain. However, this short-term pain was exacerbated by policies that were not good enough. I feel like this mini-paper is too simple and doesn't touch on any of the major aspects of the recession and spending. Similar papers in the US are hundreds of pages long and tough on a huge variety of subjects and different variables that impacted the recession.

Also, one policy that the Labour used which clearly backfired was to raise the top tax bracket. The Laffer curve is a good indicator of why raising taxes after a certain tax threshold is counterproductive. It leads to huge capital flights and rich people looking to avoid paying taxes by either moving abroad or finding tax loopholes.

http://benjaminstudebaker.com/2015/05/02/britain-for-the-love-of-god-please-stop-david-cameron/

The title is regrettably named and I disagree with that however' date=' I cannot argue against the figures. It shows how effective austerity has been.... not very and argues that both a Labour or Conservative government operating under any notion of austerity is doomed. The concept is flawed however Labour, marginally appear more flexible in their approach to the economy.

Again I'd like to reiterate an apolitical stance I'm supportive of neither.

Without meaning to be rude Stu if you understand the data being presented to you in that link it's impossible to conclude that Labour were in any way responsible. They were recovering slowly, which is the only sustainable model for any struggling economy and the right thing to do if you know economics, but 2008 cannot be their fault. Not even one iota. A global collapse effects everyone not just the UK.[/quote']

You're blaming Stu, but he's actually right on certain points. The Labour government is to blame for certain actions and are absolutely responsible for some of the fallout due to the crisis. Not all of it, but some. And their response to the crisis was correct, but not optimal.

Of course hindsight is 20/20, and we can all critique what is going on now. But to use economics and see that it is not their fault is false economics. Where else would the fault lie Ben? A global collapse affected a lot of countries, but it did not affect all the countries. Look at some of these countries and how they are and were run and you'll see a huge difference with the Labour government. Take a look at China, for example.

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Re: The Politics Thread

I know nobody here cares about evidence but in general liberal parties are better at delivering economic growth

Nevertheless, politics isn't decided by evidence but by people's perceptions and public narratives.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Wow..

It's been even worse for Labour and Lib Dems than the exit poll predicted. Frustrating that their incompetence has allowed Cameron to likely get a majority. The astronomical rise of the SNP has contributed massively, but also UKIP in the north. Ed Milliband has to go now. Should be his brother there.

As I said before we need electoral reform. I saw on Twitter that the SNP have got 1.45m votes and the Green Party have 1.05m. SNP have 56 seats and the Greens 1. That doesn't seem representative.

At least now Paddy Ashdown has to eat his hat:D

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Re: The Politics Thread

I found Timo Soini's graduate thesis from 1988. He has a Master's degree from the University of Helsinki.

https://helda.helsinki.fi/bitstream/handle/10138/37345/populism.pdf?sequence=1

"In order for a populist party to succeed, it must manufacture an issue around which it can rally around".

- Timo Soini, 1988, the current leader of the True Finns party

His own words, not mine.

In the same way, in order for UKIP to succeed, it must manufacture an issue around which the election is played out. Namely, the election must be played out at the populist party's terms and around the central issue manufactured by the populist party.

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Re: The Politics Thread

ge%20bet_zps2bcgwkfs.png

Betting is pretty close.

I wonder if anyone took the Conservative majority at 10/1 that was available as late as 9PM last night.Myself as a Scotsman am gutted that the Tories are in power again' date=' you just have to look across Scotland to see how much disdain is felt for the party.

[img']http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr172/sirmarkhughes/snp_zpsetneqn5c.png[/img]

I wonder how many institutions will be privatised over the next five years under these cowboys now they look likely to have even more power than before with a majority.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Disaster.

NHS gone.

Welfare system destroyed.

In turn, Scotland gone and who could blame them?

As I said before we need electoral reform. I saw on Twitter that the SNP have got 1.45m votes and the Green Party have 1.05m. SNP have 56 seats and the Greens 1. That doesn't seem representative

UKIP have 4 million votes and the one seat as well. It's not all that representative and democratic a system, but it won't change as it benefits the Conservatives, Labour and the SNP.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Actually 1997 was not a global financial crisis' date=' it mainly affected Asian countries such as Thailand. The UK was not in a recession in 1997, its GDP growth was 2.6%. Which therefore means that the Asian financial crisis did not really affect the UK at all. Key word is in the [b']Asian[/b].
Once again' date=' this is based on Hazard's post that the blame is to go on the Asian financial crisis in 1997 when the Labour party took over. If you really want to blame an economic crisis, then you should have quoted the incidents of Black Wednesday in 1992, although the effects of that were well over by 1997.[/quote']

You've completely misunderstood me Tom. In no way, shape or form did I mention that there was a global financial crisis in 1997. I was making a point to Ray who mentioned that Labour are "economically inept". The evidence points to the contrary.

EDIT: Nigel Farage steps down as UKIP leader. Good riddance.

Edit 2: I can see why Tom got the idea that I mentioned there was a global financial crisis in 1997. Let me rephrase it: The reason why we're in an economic mess was because of the global financial crisis (the clue is in the word global) in 2008.

Edit 3: Nick Clegg resigns as the leader of the Lib Dems. Good riddance.

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Re: The Politics Thread

You've completely misunderstood me Tom. In no way' date=' shape or form did I mention that there was a global financial crisis in 1997. I was making a point to Ray who mentioned that Labour are "economically inept". The evidence points to the contrary.

[b']EDIT:[/b] Nigel Farage steps down as UKIP leader. Good riddance.

Edit 2: I can see why Tom got the idea that I mentioned there was a global financial crisis in 1997. Let me rephrase it: The reason why we're in an economic mess was because of the global financial crisis (the clue is in the word global) in 2008.

Edit 3: Nick Clegg resigns as the leader of the Lib Dems. Good riddance.

Nobody is arguing that the global financial crisis caused the mess.

What people are arguing is that we were very badly prepared for the mess because the Labour government was borrowing money when it shouldn't have been doing, prior to 2008.

I would add to that argument, that Labour's plan in 2010 was to borrow and spend their way out of the crisis. France went down that route and are in a far worse place than the UK is in right now with far fewer jobs being created and many more unemployed. So why was that a better idea?

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Re: The Politics Thread

Well Syn your wish came true those exit polls were incorrect ;)

seems as though the majority of the country has seen sense and despite the misgivings of some this is the right result for the country.

It is a pretty big watershed moment in UK Politics and the performance of Labour, Lib Dems is astonishingly embaressing.

In an age of Austerity for the opposition party to not gain votes/seats but to actually lose what looks to be about 25 just shows exactly what the votes think about Labour and there failed economic stance. The polls dont lie the electorate has clearly said Labour and more importantly in my view Milliband/Balls can not be trusted or competent enough for the job.

I have to say saying Ed Balls lose his seat and then that smarmy Douglas Alexander lose to a 20 yr old were highlights for me :)

I said five years ago Labour backed the wrong Milliband but then thats what you get for being pawns to the Unions. If David Milliband was opoosition leader I am almost convinced Labour might have won and they certainly would have seemed a more attractive proposition to me and other voters.

As for the Lib Dems well obliteration and I look forward to seeing Paddy eat his hat.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Well Syn your wish came true those exit polls were incorrect ;)

seems as though the majority of the country has seen sense and despite the misgivings of some this is the right result for the country.

It is a pretty big watershed moment in UK Politics and the performance of Labour' date=' Lib Dems is astonishingly embaressing.

In an age of Austerity for the opposition party to not gain votes/seats but to actually lose what looks to be about 25 just shows exactly what the votes think about Labour and there failed economic stance. The polls dont lie the electorate has clearly said Labour and more importantly in my view Milliband/Balls can not be trusted or competent enough for the job.

I have to say saying Ed Balls lose his seat and then that smarmy Douglas Alexander lose to a 20 yr old were highlights for me :)

I said five years ago Labour backed the wrong Milliband but then thats what you get for being pawns to the Unions. If David Milliband was opoosition leader I am almost convinced Labour might have won and they certainly would have seemed a more attractive proposition to me and other voters.

As for the Lib Dems well obliteration and I look forward to seeing Paddy eat his hat.[/quote']

You couldn't convince me that Tories will be anything but a disaster for this country, living in an area which has completely rejected the Conservatives just makes it even worse.

This should have been a closer race and it isn't down to Ed that the gap was so big, tactical voting complete cost Labour here, Scotland thought getting behind SNP would almost guarantee a no Tory government instead it basically handed them a majority on a plate. Add the absolutely ridiculous fear mongering of a Labour/SNP coalition from the Torys adds up to quite am easily manipulated voting demographic.

Lib Dems deserved their disaster but took a further brunt as they were used as scape goats for the Tories failings.

NHS will be unrecognisable in 5 years time and not for the better and that's almost a guarantee.

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Re: The Politics Thread

seems as though the majority of the country has seen sense and despite the misgivings of some this is the right result for the country.

Regardless of the electoral system, the Conservatives don't represent the majority of the country. Where they were beaten, they were completely rejected. Oddly enough, the areas that will suffer the most from austerity.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Regardless of the electoral system' date=' the Conservatives don't represent the majority of the country. Where they were beaten, they were completely rejected. Oddly enough, the areas that will suffer the most from austerity.[/quote']

They got the most number of seats, the most vpotes as a share etc so they are the party most people voted for......fact.

Your statement aint necessarilly tue either, where I live in outer/inner London Is nearly all Labour just one big red blob and you seem to think London has it so easy compared to the rest yet that voted all for Labour.

It's a complete misnomer half the things that are posted, the belief that everybody who votes tory is a toff or lives in a mansion is as non-sensical as me saying everybody that votes for labour lives in there pyjamas and lives on benefits...

The country has spoken and firmly rejected Labour thats just fact as well.

Hopefully now Labour have got rid of the idiocy of Milliband and Balls they can reignite as a proper worthy opposition.

As for the NHS rubbish me and my family have had to use the NHS numerous times in the past few years for various reasons and the care has been nothing short of exemplery in my experience.

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They got the most number of seats' date=' the most vpotes as a share etc so they are the party most people voted for......fact.

Your statement aint necessarilly tue either, where I live in outer/inner London Is nearly all Labour just one big red blob and you seem to think London has it so easy compared to the rest yet that voted all for Labour.

It's a complete misnomer half the things that are posted, the belief that everybody who votes tory is a toff or lives in a mansion is as non-sensical as me saying everybody that votes for labour lives in there pyjamas and lives on benefits...

The country has spoken and firmly rejected Labour thats just fact as well.

Hopefully now Labour have got rid of the idiocy of Milliband and Balls they can reignite as a proper worthy opposition.

As for the NHS rubbish me and my family have had to use the NHS numerous times in the past few years for various reasons and the care has been nothing short of exemplery in my experience.[/quote']

Well in my experience of the NHS with my family this past 5 years has been horrible, don't want to go into it as I don't want to be a sob story, but the cuts to the staff numbers and the incompetence of those on at the time robbed me of precious time I won't get back.

As for Conservatives representing, I find it unbelievable that they can represent a country when their majority comes primarily from the south, how can they represent the UK when they've been ousted from Scotland for decades and completely shunned in the north, the representation isn't right.

As I've stated before Labour weren't rejected, people wanted to vote tactically in order to block the Tories getting in again and it backfired massively and that's evident from the voting swing in Scotland.

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Re: The Politics Thread

They got the most number of seats' date=' the most vpotes as a share etc so they are the party most people voted for......fact.

Your statement aint necessarilly tue either, where I live in outer/inner London Is nearly all Labour just one big red blob and you seem to think London has it so easy compared to the rest yet that voted all for Labour.

It's a complete misnomer half the things that are posted, the belief that everybody who votes tory is a toff or lives in a mansion is as non-sensical as me saying everybody that votes for labour lives in there pyjamas and lives on benefits...

The country has spoken and firmly rejected Labour thats just fact as well.

Hopefully now Labour have got rid of the idiocy of Milliband and Balls they can reignite as a proper worthy opposition.

As for the NHS rubbish me and my family have had to use the NHS numerous times in the past few years for various reasons and the care has been nothing short of exemplery in my experience.[/quote']

Yes, they are the party that the most people voted for, but they are not the party that anything near the majority of people voted for.

The current voting system in the UK is not representative and nearly democratic enough, 1.45 million people get 56 seats in parliament where as 4 million people get the 1 seat.

You don't think that London has it easy compared to the rest? They may well have voted for labour, but where they lost in London the margins were narrow as opposed to other regions where they were demolished. Inner London is the richest City in Europe, whilst 9 of the 10 poorest Cities in Northern Europe are also in the UK.

I'm not saying that every Tory lives in a mansion, they clearly don't. I'm saying that Tory voters are those who'll benefit most from it's policies (which there's no denying do benefit the more affluent in society) and those who've been influenced by the Tory's scaremongering.

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Re: The Politics Thread

You've completely misunderstood me Tom. In no way' date=' shape or form did I mention that there was a global financial crisis in 1997. I was making a point to Ray who mentioned that Labour are "economically inept". The evidence points to the contrary.

[b']EDIT:[/b] Nigel Farage steps down as UKIP leader. Good riddance.

Edit 2: I can see why Tom got the idea that I mentioned there was a global financial crisis in 1997. Let me rephrase it: The reason why we're in an economic mess was because of the global financial crisis (the clue is in the word global) in 2008.

Edit 3: Nick Clegg resigns as the leader of the Lib Dems. Good riddance.

You were talking about the 1997 crisis if I recall correctly. Misunderstandings happen of course. But my point still holds that the Labour government pushed the economy into an undesirable state and the financial crisis was inevitable, but the UK should have been better prepared for it.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Not one to say i told you so but i did ( i'll search out the post after i get back from the pub), but what a great day for us all. A definite swing to the right which at a stroke rejects Millipedes foul socialist populism, neuters the equally nasty SNP ( lets see what deal that poisoned dwarf Sturgeon cuts with the locked in Tories now ;)) and of course we get a long overdue referendum on the dreadful EU.

Of course i will admit to having my doubts about Dave ( Gay marriage, Syria , Foreign aid etc) I'm glad the good old British people made the right choice..first jobs, sort the inefficient NHS out once and for all, give the sweaty socks the powers they want ( lol) get out of the EU and stop all these bloody foreigners coming into the country....as i say a great day :)

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Not one to say i told you so but i did ( i'll search out the post after i get back from the pub)' date=' but what a great day for us all. A definite swing to the right which at a stroke rejects Millipedes foul socialist populism, neuters the equally nasty SNP ( lets see what deal that poisoned dwarf Sturgeon cuts with the locked in Tories now ;)) and of course we get a long overdue referendum on the dreadful EU.

Of course i will admit to having my doubts about Dave ( Gay marriage, Syria , Foreign aid etc) I'm glad the good old British people made the right choice..first jobs, sort the inefficient NHS out once and for all, give the sweaty socks the powers they want ( lol) get out of the EU and stop all these bloody foreigners coming into the country....as i say a great day :) [/color']

I didn't know Farage was on this forum...:eek:

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Re: The Politics Thread

Gay marriage and Syria? What a peculiar range of doubts to have over one person. It's 2015, Maggie, time to accept it.

I voted Ukip for no reason other then I'm sick of all these slimeballs. All cut from the same cloth.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Gay marriage and Syria? What a peculiar range of doubts to have over one person. It's 2015' date=' Maggie, time to accept it.

I voted Ukip for no reason other then I'm sick of all these slimeballs. All cut from the same cloth.[/quote']

Why feel obligated to vote then Fern?...and yes Syria , leave them to it I say and Gay marriage, not only a flawed consultation process, i don't recall it being mentioned in any manifesto? do you?.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Well in my experience of the NHS with my family this past 5 years has been horrible' date=' don't want to go into it.

As I've stated before Labour weren't rejected, people wanted to vote tactically in order to block the Tories getting in again and it backfired massively and that's evident from the voting swing in Scotland.[/quote']

Well I'm sorry to hear your experience of the NHS was bad but to a person I speak to who has had the need they and me personally having had an operation last year received great care and were happy with the experience.

The NHS is a minefield for whoever is in power as we all live longer etc more and more billions are needed and eventually I am not sure it is really sustainable and whilst I like the idea of free at the point of delivery the only real way as costs spiral might be to spread contracts etc out, I am not necessarily advocating that but it has to be paid for somehow and the costs are beyond belief.

Part privatisation is one way and it is already happening lets not forget that Labour were the ones who started privatising the NHS, people always point at the Tories but Labour initiated it. labour are hardly like the patron saints of the NHS they pretend to be either they have privatised, look at there current record in Wales where they are responsible it is abysmal.

The NHS is a much loved institution but a serious debate on how it is to be funded is required because the levels required are enormous be it higher taxation, privitisation, paying for GP appointments etc etc everything should be on the table again I am not saying I agree with any of them as such but it is a debate that needs to be had.

make no mistake Labour were rejected this election, they were rejected in England where the Tories annihilated them, they were annihilated in Scotland where the SNP routed them. the easiest way to get the Tories out was to vote Labour not enough people saw them as a viable alternative, although I remain hopeful that given the right selection as. Leader they can regain there way as a credible opposition.

Yes' date=' they are the party that the most people voted for, but they are not the party that anything near the majority of people voted for.

The current voting system in the UK is not representative and nearly democratic enough, 1.45 million people get 56 seats in parliament where as 4 million people get the 1 seat.

You don't think that London has it easy compared to the rest? They may well have voted for labour, but where they lost in London the margins were narrow as opposed to other regions where they were demolished. Inner London is the richest City in Europe, whilst 9 of the 10 poorest Cities in Northern Europe are also in the UK.

I'm not saying that every Tory lives in a mansion, they clearly don't. I'm saying that Tory voters are those who'll benefit most from it's policies (which there's no denying do benefit the more affluent in society) and those who've been influenced by the Tory's scaremongering.[/quote']

there was a chance to change the voting system with the AV vote that got roundly kicked out by the electorate, personally I think whoever gets the most votes wins and the Tories did that they are without doubt the Legitimate Government as per the system.

As for your point about London clearly you don't really know London at all. I can assure you having lived here nearly all my life there is plenty of poverty this false notion that most Northerners seem to have that all Londoners live in huge houses with flash cars etc is a complete nonsense, many parts of London are deprived, yes there are some areas which are high flying but that is mainly foreign oil magnates or Russians who have bought and live in these places.

As for your point in Margins in. London again that is totally wrong. London is Labour heartland and the margins are not close in my constituency for instance Labour had 13,000 more votes and increased there share if the vote, in most London areas Labour have massive margins of support.

Plus you are stereotyping a Tory Voter to an extent put it this way I am working class, I live in a two bed semi which I half own, I work in the public sector and have been victim to a pay freeze for four years meaning I have had a real terms wage cut, I don't know anybody even remotely wealthy.....Do I sound like the stereotype???

I can't stand the stereotyping with all Tories are toffs, all Ukippers are racists, all. Labour are scrounges it is nonsense. I and the majority of people make there choices on what they believe is best for the country and our continued economic recovery plus as. I say I look at economic matters the most and I like a lot of Tory policy.

Not one to say i told you so but i did ( i'll search out the post after i get back from the pub)' date=' but what a great day for us all. A definite swing to the right which at a stroke rejects Millipedes foul socialist populism, neuters the equally nasty SNP ( lets see what deal that poisoned dwarf Sturgeon cuts with the locked in Tories now ;)) and of course we get a long overdue referendum on the dreadful EU.

Of course i will admit to having my doubts about Dave ( Gay marriage, Syria , Foreign aid etc) I'm glad the good old British people made the right choice..first jobs, sort the inefficient NHS out once and for all, give the sweaty socks the powers they want ( lol) get out of the EU and stop all these bloody foreigners coming into the country....as i say a great day :) [/color']

I wondered when you would pipe up ;)

I didn't know Farage was on this forum...:eek:

Is he not unemployed as of now?!?!

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Re: The Politics Thread

Why feel obligated to vote then Fern?...and yes Syria ' date=' leave them to it I say and Gay marriage, not only a flawed consultation process, i don't recall it being mentioned in any manifesto? do you?.[/color']

We're lucky to live in a democratic country where free will reigns. Voting once every 5 years is a small price to pay to show your gratitude for that.

I merely found it odd that you'd raise concerns over two such contrasting issues. Syria is obviously a far more urgent issue. I don't think you can just leave them to it. This is a second holocaust being carried out and being aided by nutters from this country. We can't just stand idly by whilst people are being massacred in the name of religious interpretations. We opened this can of worms. We need to close it.

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