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Stuart H

The Politics Thread

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Re: The Politics Thread

As for your point about London clearly you don't really know London at all. I can assure you having lived here nearly all my life there is plenty of poverty this false notion that most Northerners seem to have that all Londoners live in huge houses with flash cars etc is a complete nonsense' date=' many parts of London are deprived, yes there are some areas which are high flying but that is mainly foreign oil magnates or Russians who have bought and live in these places.

As for your point in Margins in. London again that is totally wrong. London is Labour heartland and the margins are not close in my constituency for instance Labour had 13,000 more votes and increased there share if the vote, in most London areas Labour have massive margins of support.

[/quote']

I know its not always popular to admit this Ray, but you have to factor the immigrant factor into London voting patterns. Is it not reasonable to expect that all these wonderful newcomers ( who make such a huge contribution to our economy, culture, welfare bill and prison population) are more likely to look to the left to help continue their insidious growth in this country?.

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Re: The Politics Thread

We're lucky to live in a democratic country where free will reigns. Voting once every 5 years is a small price to pay to show your gratitude for that.

I merely found it odd that you'd raise concerns over two such contrasting issues. Syria is obviously a far more urgent issue. I don't think you can just leave them to it. This is a second holocaust being carried out and being aided by nutters from this country. We can't just stand idly by whilst people are being massacred in the name of religious interpretations. We opened this can of worms. We need to close it.

Do you know Ukips policy on Syria?...

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/425185/EXCLUSIVE-We-re-tired-of-wars-Nigel-Farage-explains-why-we-MUST-resist-striking-Syria

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Re: The Politics Thread

Well I'm sorry to hear your experience of the NHS was bad but to a person I speak to who has had the need they and me personally having had an operation last year received great care and were happy with the experience.

I think the experience again comes to the North and South divide, it's pretty evident that the Tories couldn't give a monkey about us (which makes it all the more strange that my very Northern village is Tory stronghold)

When I'm not at University I come from a town that in the past 5 years has had its hospital shut, a new A&E centre plans scrapped, only for a walk-in hub to be opened (which is barely ever open) and our nearest hospital/A&E is more than 15 miles away in Blackburn.

I think what you experience in London from the Tories is a lot better than what we receive in the North. God only knows how Jake Berry kept his seat the guy has gone back on everything he promised in the past 5 years.

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Re: The Politics Thread

I think the experience again comes to the North and South divide' date=' it's pretty evident that the Tories couldn't give a monkey about us (which makes it all the more strange that my very Northern village is Tory stronghold)

When I'm not at University I come from a town that in the past 5 years has had its hospital shut, a new A&E centre plans scrapped, only for a walk-in hub to be opened (which is barely ever open) and our nearest hospital/A&E is more than 15 miles away in Blackburn.

I think what you experience in London from the Tories is a lot better than what we receive in the North. God only knows how Jake Berry kept his seat the guy has gone back on everything he promised in the past 5 years.[/quote']

This isn't a north south divide pal. In Hertfordshire we've gone from having Accident and Emergency centres in St Albans, Welwyn, Stevenage, Hemel and Watford to now only at Stevenage and Watford (at least 40mins apart) and the Conservatives (who won in my Watford contituency) have been trying to shut the Watford A&E for a while. St Albans (my birthplace) only has a physio ward and a blood clinic from what I can tell. So I don't agree that it is a blatant north south divide. It's a nationwide issue.

However with my Cornish hat on, I do accept that Westminster in general is incredibly ignorant about the issues in areas of the country that are far detached from the capital. Now that isn't just a north south issue, but it is also a huge issue for the Cornish and how they view British politics. Cornwall is one of the poorest counties in the country and very often gets forgotten about and sees little to no benefits from Westminster whatsoever.

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Re: The Politics Thread

The country is falling apart' date=' SNP are undoubtedly going to want another referendum with them dominating Scotland and if the Tory's remain in government I'd expect them to win that referendum.

The next five years are going to be years of suffering for the poorest in society, more people will be in food banks, more people will be in poverty whilst the richest in society avoid the mansion tax, avoid paying any more income tax, avoid inheritance tax, avoid nondoms and avoid banker bonuses being taxed. [b']Where's the equality in that?[/b]

I'm not arguing that we don't need cuts, spending does need to be reduced from the levels it was at under Brown's government but it has to be spread evenly across society.

Right-wing parties care as much about equality as I do about ballet. :o

Not one to say i told you so but i did ( i'll search out the post after i get back from the pub)' date=' but what a great day for us all. A definite swing to the right which at a stroke rejects Millipedes foul socialist populism, neuters the equally nasty SNP ( lets see what deal that poisoned dwarf Sturgeon cuts with the locked in Tories now ;)) and of course we get a long overdue referendum on the dreadful EU.

Of course i will admit to having my doubts about Dave ( Gay marriage, Syria , Foreign aid etc) I'm glad the good old British people made the right choice..first jobs, sort the inefficient NHS out once and for all, give the sweaty socks the powers they want ( lol) get out of the EU and stop all these bloody foreigners coming into the country....as i say a great day :)

I may be one of them soon, Dave. :P

But don't worry, if I come, I come to work and not to mooch off your social security system. ;)

768h3Tz4Qik

:D

No, I'm simply more qualified than most of you. :)

If some imigrants came here to work, why should I care?

If they were picked it would probably be because they were better than me.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Right-wing parties care as much about equality as I do about ballet. :o

I may be one of them soon' date=' Dave. :P

But don't worry, if I come, I come to work and not to mooch off your social security system. ;)

[center']

768h3Tz4Qik

[/center]

:D

No, I'm simply more qualified than most of you. :)

If some imigrants came here to work, why should I care?

If they were picked it would probably be because they were better than me.

Same - will be moving to the UK in October!

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Re: The Politics Thread

Same - will be moving to the UK in October!

It still isn't official for me' date=' but it's a strong possibility.

Which city will you be moving to, mate?

I have absolutely no problem with immigrants who are here to work and have skills that the UK population cannot provide. It's the mindless mass immigration that the EU makes so simple that grates on me.

I know you don't. :)

We also have Romanians (no xenophobia here, don't get me wrong, but almost all are Romanians) here, making children and mooching off our social security, not working and spending all day in coffee shpos.

I'm obviously not okay with that.

I was just pulling Dave's leg. ;)

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Re: The Politics Thread

Oh my god

I might be moving to UK too in somewhat near future. Complete speculation at this point though. Where are you guys staying? Do you have a job/place to study in mind already?

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Re: The Politics Thread

Oh my god

I might be moving to UK too in somewhat near future. Complete speculation at this point though. Where are you guys staying? Do you have a job/place to study in mind already?

Yes, otherwise I wouldn't say it's a strong possibility.

I'd be moving to London: if (or when) it becomes official, I can tell you guys the full details in "The Random Thread". :)

But I'm surely not gonna stay in Portugal for much longer. :o

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Re: The Politics Thread

there was a chance to change the voting system with the AV vote that got roundly kicked out by the electorate' date=' personally I think whoever gets the most votes wins and the Tories did that they are without doubt the Legitimate Government as per the system.[/quote']

The electorate passionate to vote are always going to vote against a change to the voting system with so many being passionate supporters of Labour and the Conservatives as it's within their own interests. Ultimately, it shouldn't be down to the people to decide, as for every person with less than your average vote there's a person with more than your average vote, it's about making the electoral system fair and representative.

As for your point about London clearly you don't really know London at all. I can assure you having lived here nearly all my life there is plenty of poverty this false notion that most Northerners seem to have that all Londoners live in huge houses with flash cars etc is a complete nonsense' date=' many parts of London are deprived, yes there are some areas which are high flying but that is mainly foreign oil magnates or Russians who have bought and live in these places.[/quote']

Of course there's poverty in London, but it's far better off than areas like the Valleys where poverty is rife and opportunities to earn the same sort of money that your average Londoner earns are slim.

I'm not saying all Labour voters are on benefits and all Tory voters are millionaires, but there's no denying that on a far smaller less exaggerated scale that your average Tory voter is more affluent than your average Labour voter.

I'm not saying every Tory voter is, there's of course plenty of working class Tories as is evident with how popular the Sun is amongst working class people. I just happen to think the majority of them are influenced scaremonged in to voting the Tories, with fears of an SNP-Labour coalition, immigration, benefit cheats etc.

As for your point in Margins in. London again that is totally wrong. London is Labour heartland and the margins are not close in my constituency for instance Labour had 13' date='000 more votes and increased there share if the vote, in most London areas Labour have massive margins of support.[/quote']

London is a labour heartland? The Mayor of London has been Boris Johnson since 2008.

Plus you are stereotyping a Tory Voter to an extent put it this way I am working class' date=' I live in a two bed semi which I half own, I work in the public sector and have been victim to a pay freeze for four years meaning I have had a real terms wage cut, I don't know anybody even remotely wealthy.....Do I sound like the stereotype???[/quote']

There's a stereotype of a Tory voter, and there's no point denying that, I haven't raised a stereotype though just merely stated that most Tory voters vote within their own interest.

Your not stereotypical, no, given that your likely to suffer from the result you seem so happy about.

I can't stand the stereotyping with all Tories are toffs' date=' all Ukippers are racists, all. Labour are scrounges it is nonsense. I and the majority of people make there choices on what they believe is best for the country and our continued economic recovery plus as. I say I look at economic matters the most and I like a lot of Tory policy.[/quote']

That's fair enough, although I just simply can't agree with Tory economic policy being favourable. It's not fair for the most vulnerable in society to pay for the bankers mistakes.

This election result is a massive step towards Scottish Independence, and there's not much of an argument for that being the best thing for the country.

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Re: The Politics Thread

The raison d'etre of the conservative party is to promote the interests of wealthy while using language to convince as many fools are possible that those are in fact not their interests.

They're also misleadingly named as in reality their main interest is not to promote social conservatism (UKIP does a much better job at that) but rather economic policies aligned with those of the wealthy, namely economic liberalism and fiscal conservatism.

When taxes are lowered as a consequence of economic liberalism and fiscal conservatism, the conservative party makes sure that the majority of those tax savings go to the wealthy, with the average worker getting as small of a piece of that pie as is reasonably justifiable in a democracy.

Politics like many things in life is based on reciprocity and in the end, a voter can only offer a single vote. That is far outweighed by the interests of a big business that invests in re-election campaigns and can threaten to move jobs abroad. Thus, the average conservative voter will see little to none of the benefits that he expects to see.

I must mention in the end that this is my field of study so this isn't just something I've invented but rather largely represents the consensus opinion of experts from both the left and the right side of the political spectrum.

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Re: The Politics Thread

The raison d'etre of the conservative party is to promote the interests of wealthy while using language to convince as many fools are possible that those are in fact not their interests.

They're also misleadingly named as in reality their main interest is not to promote social conservatism (UKIP does a much better job at that) but rather economic policies aligned with those of the wealthy' date=' namely economic liberalism and fiscal conservatism.

When taxes are lowered as a consequence of economic liberalism and fiscal conservatism, the conservative party makes sure that the majority of those tax savings go to the wealthy, with the average worker getting as small of a piece of that pie as is reasonably justifiable in a democracy.

Politics like many things in life is based on reciprocity and in the end, a voter can only offer a single vote. That is far outweighed by the interests of a big business that invests in re-elections campaigns and can threaten to move jobs abroad. Thus, the average conservative voter will see little to none of the benefits that he expects to see.

I must mention in the end that this is my field of study so this isn't just something I've invented but rather largely represents the consensus opinion of experts from both the left and the right side of the political spectrum.[/quote']

I should also note that these experts aren't just some detached academics but rather many of them work actively in the day-to-day life of politics and help strategize re-election campaigns.

If you gave David Cameron truth serum, he would agree with the above points. Of course, politics isn't about the truth but about being elected. So the job of a politician is not to talk about the truth that often requires lots of nuance but rather make arguments that best convince as many people as possible.

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Re: The Politics Thread

The electorate passionate to vote are always going to vote against a change to the voting system with so many being passionate supporters of Labour and the Conservatives as it's within their own interests. Ultimately' date=' it shouldn't be down to the people to decide, as for every person with less than your average vote there's a person with more than your average vote, it's about making the electoral system fair and representative.

[b']At the end of the day that is what democracy is giving people the choice to decided and they decided not to change the voting system. That's just how it works. Labour have had plenty of years in power to try and change the system but they chose not to and why?? because it suited them at the time and now that they lost all you hear is loads of Labour saying it ain't fair blah blah blah they are all hypocrites.

If people really want Proportional Representation then that is fine but the people who should be arguing about that are people like UKIP who got one seat despite getting more votes than the SNP who get 56.....[/b]

Of course there's poverty in London, but it's far better off than areas like the Valleys where poverty is rife and opportunities to earn the same sort of money that your average Londoner earns are slim.

I'm not saying all Labour voters are on benefits and all Tory voters are millionaires, but there's no denying that on a far smaller less exaggerated scale that your average Tory voter is more affluent than your average Labour voter.

I'm not saying every Tory voter is, there's of course plenty of working class Tories as is evident with how popular the Sun is amongst working class people. I just happen to think the majority of them are influenced scaremonged in to voting the Tories, with fears of an SNP-Labour coalition, immigration, benefit cheats etc.

I find it incredibly arrogant to suggest that the majority if British Public are Gulliable idiots who actually don't have a clue what is happening but somehow pander to the media or such like. The underlying message in your comment here gives that impression

London is a labour heartland? The Mayor of London has been Boris Johnson since 2008.

With all due respect you simply don't know what you are talking about and want to continue to peddle the myth that London is somehow dominated by Tory Toffs. London is LABOUR go and have a look at the election results in 2010 Labour dominated in London and in this election Labour was even more dominant in London and bucked the national trend by actually increasing there share of the vote. Also look at local councils etc etc quite frankly London is about as major a Labour area as you are going to get. The results speak for themselves don't take my word for it, but don't peddle the myth you seem to want to at this point

Boris has been Mayor because people were sick of Ken Livingstone who did nothing for Londoners and Boris like him or not is a one of a kind politician and is extremely popular with the public at large, he has also actually done a pretty good job for London, it might help if Labour put up a viable alternative but they ain't. Boris will be gone soon enough

There's a stereotype of a Tory voter, and there's no point denying that, I haven't raised a stereotype though just merely stated that most Tory voters vote within their own interest.

Your not stereotypical, no, given that your likely to suffer from the result you seem so happy about.

No I am just happy to put what I consider to be in the interests of the country before self interest, and to be Frank Labour would not have changed much for me anyway and so on that basis the Tories economic policies are far more in line with what I believe needs to be done and the results speak positively as compared to the rest of the EU where we have more growth than the EU combined, record low levels of unemployment and yes work should pay, I find the notion that people who work should earn more than those on benefits to be a perfectly reasonable view.

That's fair enough, although I just simply can't agree with Tory economic policy being favourable. It's not fair for the most vulnerable in society to pay for the bankers mistakes.

This election result is a massive step towards Scottish Independence, and there's not much of an argument for that being the best thing for the country.

I don't care if the Scots leave I would be more than happy to let them go, however a devo-Max option is the most likely scenario.

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Re: The Politics Thread

At the end of the day that is what democracy is giving people the choice to decided and they decided not to change the voting system. That's just how it works. Labour have had plenty of years in power to try and change the system but they chose not to and why?? because it suited them at the time and now that they lost all you hear is loads of Labour saying it ain't fair blah blah blah they are all hypocrites.

If people really want Proportional Representation then that is fine but the people who should be arguing about that are people like UKIP who got one seat despite getting more votes than the SNP who get 56.....

I'm not saying it's unfair on Labour, by enlarge they'd support the current system and that's part of the problem. All of the media are in favour of this current voting system as well as the three party's that dominant parliament.

It's not fair on those voting for green or UKIP who aren't fairly represented, and it should surely just be implemented on the basis of the democratic values our country is supposed to show as opposed to letting it be decided be an electorate that don't want that level of democracy for people who don't support their party.

I find it incredibly arrogant to suggest that the majority if British Public are Gulliable idiots who actually don't have a clue what is happening but somehow pander to the media or such like. The underlying message in your comment here gives that impression

I haven't said the majority of the British public are gullible idiots, there's certainly a proportion of Tory voters (that make up roughly 17.5% of the British public, not the majority) that are manipulated by the British media.

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Re: The Politics Thread

I haven't said the majority of the British public are gullible idiots' date=' there's certainly a proportion of Tory voters (that make up roughly 17.5% of the British public, not the majority) that are manipulated by the British media.[/quote']

I'd argue that this election has had the most left wing media of any election to date. The majority of the papers are right wing with some exceptions (Mirror and Guardian) but the BBC is certainly more left than right and the rise of social media and blogging has meant the new media is flooded with left wing opinions.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Same - will be moving to the UK in October!

hmmm ??' date=' i would have thought the fruit picking season would be over by then? :confused:[/color']

I may be one of them soon' date=' Dave. :P

But don't worry, if I come, I come to work and not to mooch off your social security system. ;)[/center']

...really ?, i didn't know Mcdonalds were advertising in Portugal?

The raison d'etre of the conservative party is to promote the interests of wealthy while using language to convince as many fools are possible that those are in fact not their interests.

They're also misleadingly named as in reality their main interest is not to promote social conservatism (UKIP does a much better job at that) but rather economic policies aligned with those of the wealthy' date=' namely economic liberalism and fiscal conservatism.

When taxes are lowered as a consequence of economic liberalism and fiscal conservatism, the conservative party makes sure that the majority of those tax savings go to the wealthy, with the average worker getting as small of a piece of that pie as is reasonably justifiable in a democracy.

Politics like many things in life is based on reciprocity and in the end, a voter can only offer a single vote. That is far outweighed by the interests of a big business that invests in re-election campaigns and can threaten to move jobs abroad. Thus, the average conservative voter will see little to none of the benefits that he expects to see.

I must mention in the end that this is my field of study so this isn't just something I've invented but rather largely represents the consensus opinion of experts from both the left and the right side of the political spectrum.[/quote']

Still working your way through the Gore Vidal collection eh Saf :P

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Re: The Politics Thread

I hate the Tories and Clegg for not standing up for what the Lib Dems stand for...

I've been chatting through the Brown review with my mate (probably the most intellectual conversation Facebook chat has ever witnessed) and we've come to the conclusion that the proposed cuts are a complete farce. This is probably going to be very similar to my previous post on the matter but hopefully much better put across and far far angrier :P

The cuts have been proposed to cut the number of University students and to bring value back to degrees as we as a country are falling behind other European institutions of education. But do we really want the richest getting those degrees ahead of those who deserve them most and would prosper most off the back of them? The current situation is pretty easy to explain as a big vicious circle:

16547p.jpg

There are however far better ways to cut the number of university students than taking it out of most peoples' price range. Alternative options need to be offered to students coming out of college. I remember when I was in 6th form a friend of mine informed his tutor that he wasn't planning on attending university and she asked him why he was doing A-levels. Doesn't that striker you as a bit ridiculous? All students doing further studies from GCSE are channelled into even further education as there is nothing available that couldn't have been done if you didn't take A-levels.

Taking a short history lesson' date=' the UK apprenticeship tradition fell apart in the 1970s with the collapse of many heavy and craft industries. The system didn't adapt to the change in the job market at all and now the idea is pretty dead. Look through some job ads in your local paper: companies advertising for secretaries and receptionists want people with university experience. Surely someone who's come out of college and has had 2 years training for the job is better qualified? Apprenticeships still half-exist as NVQs but these sit next to A-levels in college course guides and those who have the grades are pushed towards academic options. The education system is shooting itself in the foot.

Then there is also the element of grading. Obviously A-levels and university are pushed on those with good grades but how hard is it really to attain those grades? In 2010 over a quarter of those taking A-levels achieved A or A* grades. 97.6% got an E or above which is enough to get you a university place. It's easy to see why degrees are becoming devalued when so many people go to university and it's because universities have no other option than to give people offers and students have nowhere else to go but higher education.

In short, the whole education system needs reforming. If the proposed massive cuts come in then you'll either have a ton of smart kids leaving school at 16 because they can't afford uni and there's no point in A-levels without going to uni or you'll have the next generation of doctors/teachers leaving uni with £50k debts. The only people this change serves to benefit is the rich folk who can afford the hiked prices and, as a token, the very poor end of students who get a lot of their education covered. The middle class are completely screwed.

Don't really like Labour either so I'm going to have to go Green B):rolleyes:[/font']

greens.png

Just gone back to the start of the thread. They do say that you move right on the spectrum as you get older, but I seem to have aged significantly in 4 and a half years :P

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Re: The Politics Thread

Just gone back to the start of the thread. They do say that you move right on the spectrum as you get older' date=' but I seem to have aged significantly in 4 and a half years :P[/quote']

Reminds me of when Anakin joined the dark side :(:P

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Re: The Politics Thread

A socialist mob has descended on Downing Street' date=' seemingly to protest against democracy. They've been violent and vandalised a war memorial to boot.

Savages.[/quote']

Socialism is the worst thing to embrace earth since the black death.

There should be a new legislation allowing normal human-beings to fire double-barrel shotguns at protestors protesting for no apparent reason.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Socialism is the worst thing to embrace earth since the black death.

There should be a new legislation allowing normal human-beings to fire double-barrel shotguns at protestors protesting for no apparent reason.

I think it can work in some situations. The Scandinavian countries have excellent public services and don't seem to mind the accompanying astonishing tax rates. Won't work in countries with populations any bigger than there though.

I absolutely respect peoples' right to protest. However, as soon as they start breaking the law I'm all for Boris' water cannons to get rolled out. That said, protesting against a democratic election 2 days ago when the government has done absolutely nothing since is particularly stupid.

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Re: The Politics Thread

I think it can work in some situations. The Scandinavian countries have excellent public services and don't seem to mind the accompanying astonishing tax rates. Won't work in countries with populations any bigger than there though.

I absolutely respect peoples' right to protest. However' date=' as soon as they start breaking the law I'm all for Boris' water cannons to get rolled out. That said, protesting against a democratic election 2 days ago when the government has done absolutely nothing since is particularly stupid.[/quote']

It can work for short periods of time; stabilising an economy is for example best done with socialism, as it gives everyone the chance to calibrate and start/continue from an equal platform. However, that equality/luxury is more often than not misused faster than many can even blink, which is why socialism is generally detestable. For every hard worker, you'll always have another content with living on the former's taxes, and that is simply human nature.

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