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Stuart H

The Politics Thread

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Re: The Politics Thread

Just gone back to the start of the thread. They do say that you move right on the spectrum as you get older' date=' but I seem to have aged significantly in 4 and a half years :P[/quote']

Do you earn well or have you become more socially conservative? Or has your environment become more conservative (from university to worklife)?

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Re: The Politics Thread

Do you earn well or have you become more socially conservative? Or has your environment become more conservative (from university to worklife)?

None of the above? I'm not on bad money but it's still a graduate wage and I live and work in Leeds, which is a very Labour city (all of my colleagues were Labour voters).

I don't even think I'm that right wing. I'd love to have a bigger public sector with more people able to receive more expensive NHS treatments, better schools with smaller classes, etc. Hell, I'd even like public transport and the post office renationalised.

However, I do think that in order to have all of those things, we need to be able to pay for it. Right now we're still spending more than we collect, so it isn't really austerity at all. I feel that parties like the SNP and Greens are just going to push today's problems onto the next generation but with added interest.

Labour aren't quite so bad but I absolutely do not trust them with the economy. In order to have a wonderful public sector, you need a thriving private sector and I also think some of Labour's policies were very anti-business.

I also have quite a strong feeling that you should earn your way. I realise that benefit scroungers are in the vast minority, but the fact that people are able to choose that as a lifestyle disgusts me. The same with immigrants moving to the UK to live off our benefit system, and often send money home.

Miliband's holier than thou stance on a referendum also didn't sit well with me. I'm not sure if I'd vote in or out of Europe but I definitely believe that the public should have a voice. Ed saying he wouldn't grant that referendum because he didn't want one suggested he thought himself better than the public.

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Re: The Politics Thread

I don't even think I'm that right wing. I'd love to have a bigger public sector with more people able to receive more expensive NHS treatments' date=' better schools with smaller classes, etc. Hell, I'd even like public transport and the post office renationalised.

[/quote']

Actually a lot of republicans in America have similar views too. So in America ou'd be considered a non-nutter republican (tea party is the nutter version, I guess extreme-UKIP would be the UK version). Still, you'd be considered to be fairly heavily a right-winger

None of the above? I'm not on bad money but it's still a graduate wage and I live and work in Leeds, which is a very Labour city (all of my colleagues were Labour voters).

Maybe you just like standing out? Were you always at the top of your class or in other ways special?

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Re: The Politics Thread

Miliband's holier than thou stance on a referendum also didn't sit well with me. I'm not sure if I'd vote in or out of Europe but I definitely believe that the public should have a voice. Ed saying he wouldn't grant that referendum because he didn't want one suggested he thought himself better than the public.

I think I'd vote 'out' at present.

Going to be interesting to see how that referendum pans out.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Actually a lot of republicans in America have similar views too. So in America ou'd be considered a non-nutter republican (tea party is the nutter version' date=' I guess extreme-UKIP would be the UK version). Still, you'd be considered to be fairly heavily a right-winger

Maybe you just like standing out? Were you always at the top of your class or in other ways special?[/quote']

I think America as a country is much further right than the UK. If UKIP tried to introduce policies like having the Union flag flown at every public institution, God Save the Queen sung often in schools and at every sporting event and an increase in defence spending to over 3%, they'd be labelled as racist scaremongers. From what I know of US politics (which is admittedly little), I think I'd be siding with the Democrats.

I was smart at school but I was humble about it.

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Re: The Politics Thread

I think I'd vote 'out' at present.

Going to be interesting to see how that referendum pans out.

I think I'm currently an 'out' but it's not solid at all. The Tory majority seems to have scared the pants off Juncker, which is good news for negotiations but I can't see them getting anywhere without contravening key EU principles.

I definitely think that the political parties really haven't grasped the public opinion on the subject though. Only UKIP will be campaigning for an 'out' vote (although some Tory MPs support that) and the rest of the parties (and majority of Tory MPs) want us to stay in. That's certainly not the impression I get from the public.

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Re: The Politics Thread

I think I'm currently an 'out' but it's not solid at all. The Tory majority seems to have scared the pants off Juncker' date=' which is good news for negotiations but I can't see them getting anywhere without contravening key EU principles.

I definitely think that the political parties really haven't grasped the public opinion on the subject though. Only UKIP will be campaigning for an 'out' vote (although some Tory MPs support that) and the rest of the parties (and majority of Tory MPs) want us to stay in. That's certainly not the impression I get from the public.[/quote']

That's also the impression I get from most that I've discussed the subject with, albeit a very small sample, the majority (90%) have all said they would at present vote for 'out'.

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Re: The Politics Thread

A socialist mob has descended on Downing Street' date=' seemingly to protest against democracy. They've been violent and vandalised a war memorial to boot.

Savages.[/quote']

Was hardly a mob and one memorial was tagged. The media blackout doesn't surprise me either, doesn't bode well when on the first day of the majority Tory reign theres already been a backlash.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Was hardly a mob and one memorial was tagged. The media blackout doesn't surprise me either' date=' doesn't bode well when on the first day of the majority Tory reign theres already been a backlash.[/quote']

Riot police were out and 2 police staff have been injured. How would you describe it?

One memorial is far too many memorials to have been vandalised. It's vile.

There's a blackout from the left wing media too, ashamed at what their readers are doing.

It was a democratic vote. If people don't like it then they'll have to suck it up for 5 years. You wouldn't have seen Tory voters out on the streets had Labour got into power.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Riot police were out and 2 police staff have been injured. How would you describe it?

One memorial is far too many memorials to have been vandalised. It's vile.

There's a blackout from the left wing media too' date=' ashamed at what their readers are doing.

It was a democratic vote. If people don't like it then they'll have to suck it up for 5 years. You wouldn't have seen Tory voters out on the streets had Labour got into power.[/quote']

Its a democratic right to protest. I don't agree with violence or vandalising anything (Just to point that out before people think I'm defending it). As previously stated FPTP isn't democratic when the majority of the country didn't vote for them.

I'm all for peaceful protests but 'sucking it up for 5 years' shouldn't be a choice, if you don't protest for what you believe in then you'll just let the Tories (or anyone) walk all over you. It's easy to govern a defeated population not a protesting one.

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Re: The Politics Thread

I think America as a country is much further right than the UK. If UKIP tried to introduce policies like having the Union flag flown at every public institution' date=' God Save the Queen sung often in schools and at every sporting event and an increase in defence spending to over 3%, they'd be labelled as racist scaremongers. From what I know of US politics (which is admittedly little), I think I'd be siding with the Democrats.

I was smart at school but I was humble about it.[/quote']

Politics is relative, so what we're interested in where each individual falls in that country's spectrum. If you were born in a different nationality, it would be reasonably likely that you were going to be around the same point on that country's left-right spectrum.

Would you say you're exceptional though? Hand on heart honesty, and without regard for outward/on the surface humility.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Whilst I don't condone the violence at the riots today, it was inevitable and it's going to be a common sight over the night five years. £12 billion of welfare cuts are going to hurt people badly, and with Labour offering no hope of ending austerity people popular protest is going to happen.

Miliband's holier than thou stance on a referendum also didn't sit well with me. I'm not sure if I'd vote in or out of Europe but I definitely believe that the public should have a voice. Ed saying he wouldn't grant that referendum because he didn't want one suggested he thought himself better than the public.

This point is a nonsense' date=' did Farage equally think of himself as better than the public because he wanted out of the EU without a referendum? He clearly isn't thinking of himself as better than the public, when whether he succeeded or not was based on the support of the public.

I think America as a country is much further right than the UK. If UKIP tried to introduce policies like having the Union flag flown at every public institution, God Save the Queen sung often in schools and at every sporting event and an increase in defence spending to over 3%, they'd be labelled as racist scaremongers. From what I know of US politics (which is admittedly little), I think I'd be siding with the Democrats.

I was smart at school but I was humble about it.

Whilst the US are culturally far more right wing than anything other here, reading your views economically you'd be siding with the Republicans who share the same ideas as David Cameron and the conservatives.

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Re: The Politics Thread

To Stuart: There's also the point of where austerity comes from. Does it come from spending that benefits the public, or does it come from the bonuses and tax exemptions enjoyed by big corporations?

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Re: The Politics Thread

Politics is relative' date=' so what we're interested in where each individual falls in that country's spectrum. If you were born in a different nationality, it would be reasonably likely that you were going to be around the same point on that country's left-right spectrum.

Would you say you're exceptional though? Hand on heart honesty, and without regard for outward/on the surface humility.[/quote']

Fair enough.

I'm not sure how that's relevant.

Whilst I don't condone the violence at the riots today' date=' it was inevitable and it's going to be a common sight over the night five years. £12 billion of welfare cuts are going to hurt people badly, and with Labour offering no hope of ending austerity people popular protest is going to happen.

This point is a nonsense, did Farage equally think of himself as better than the public because he wanted out of the EU without a referendum? He clearly isn't thinking of himself as better than the public, when whether he succeeded or not was based on the support of the public.

Whilst the US are culturally far more right wing than anything other here, reading your views economically you'd be siding with the Republicans who share the same ideas as David Cameron and the conservatives.[/quote']

But to protest before the government's even done anything? Fair enough, protest specific issues, but to protest an elected government because they aren't the one you voted for is ridiculous.

UKIP were going to have a referendum.

And as I put below, that's fair enough economically. However, there are public service issues that are an absolute no go for me with the Republicans for me. That their version of the NHS has only come in in the last 10 years and the Republicans were against it is absurd.

To Stuart: There's also the point of where austerity comes from. Does it come from spending that benefits the public' date=' or does it come from the bonuses and tax exemptions enjoyed by big corporations?[/quote']

The former, unfortunately. I don't like it, but you have to keep the wealthy individuals and corporations in the country happy because them paying even a tiny proportion of their wealth into the economy is more beneficial than them not being there.

Take, for example, an Arab non dom that buys a £3m house in Mayfair and nips down the road to get a £200k Lamborghini. He doesn't pay any income tax under non dom laws but straight after arriving he's paid £275k in stamp duty and £35k in VAT on the car. That's more than the average working person will pay in income tax during their lifetime.

Of course, you can increase their tax rate and tax their expensive houses and not allow the non dom rule, but the likely result is that they don't come to the UK at all.

That isn't to say that the wealthy individuals and corporations shouldn't pay the tax they owe by cracking down on tax avoidance. A company like Starbucks that isn't paying any tax isn't benefitting the country at all by being here. So we should tell them to pay up or get out. We can get coffee elsewhere.

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Yet more ridiculous scenes over at Calais this morning, as for the second night running thousands of illegal immigrants try to force their way into dear old England via the channel tunnel. A shocking state of affairs, but ahead of Camerons ( doomed to fail) attempts at EU renegotiation a stark reminder as to why we must vote to escape from Brussels evil clutches in 2017's UK referendum.

Now unless I am wrong ?, aren't these (mainly) able bodied young Muslims from dungholes such as Eritrea Syria, Somalia and Sudan supposed to claim asylum in the first safe country in which they arrive?.Or does EU and international law permit them to travel for hundreds of miles crossing numerous borders as they go because they think they would prefer to live here?.

Makes you wonder why doesn’t it?. Of course I blame the predictably useless French in all of this, get on and pull down the filthy squatter camps, process these international beggars, and send them back to the point where arrived ( Bulgaria?, Greece?, Romania?), if after all its an EU problem then let them deal with this rabble. Who knows ?, considering most young Bulgarians etc have long since arrived here in the UK to embark on a profitable career begging and pick pocketing, such countries may even welcome a few thousand new faces?

Not that they will of course, they much prefer to ask us to pay for the policing of their borders, whilst painting this as an Anglo Saxon problem.

Roll on 2017 I say....

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Yet more ridiculous scenes over at Calais this morning, as for the second night running thousands of illegal immigrants try to force their way into dear old England via the channel tunnel. A shocking state of affairs, but ahead of Camerons ( doomed to fail) attempts at EU renegotiation a stark reminder as to why we must vote to escape from Brussels evil clutches in 2017's UK referendum.

Now unless I am wrong ?, aren't these (mainly) able bodied young Muslims from dungholes such as Eritrea Syria, Somalia and Sudan supposed to claim asylum in the first safe country in which they arrive?.Or does EU and international law permit them to travel for hundreds of miles crossing numerous borders as they go because they think they would prefer to live here?.

Makes you wonder why doesnt it?. Of course I blame the predictably useless French in all of this, get on and pull down the filthy squatter camps, process these international beggars, and send them back to the point where arrived ( Bulgaria?, Greece?, Romania?), if after all its an EU problem then let them deal with this rabble. Who knows ?, considering most young Bulgarians etc have long since arrived here in the UK to embark on a profitable career begging and pick pocketing, such countries may even welcome a few thousand new faces?

Not that they will of course, they much prefer to ask us to pay for the policing of their borders, whilst painting this as an Anglo Saxon problem.

Roll on 2017 I say....

Hello Longnose, I take from you post your a hardline English conservative. I'm curious, regarding the upcoming UK referendem on the EU, what do you make of the economic consequences of an UK exit?That would imply UK loosing access the biggest free trade common space in the world (despite its numerous flaws respecting excessive regulation).

So, how do the British Conservatives, who for centuries have been champions of free trade, envisage loosing access to the common market?

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Losing access to the free market?, my dear chap you don't really believe that’s going to happen do you?. Quite the contrary, lets not forget the trade surplus we run with the EU, the obligations set out in the Lisbon ( spits LOUDLY ) treaty that insure a trade deal will be set up with any member states that choose to leave the EU, and on top of that what would the WTO have to say about it?. No the UK will continue to trade with the terminally stagnant EU, just as we continue to trade with the US, the Commonwealth and all those emerging markets that by 2020 will produce around 54% ( compared to the EU's 15%) of the worlds GDP. So don't you worry Arotto common sense will prevail, you can bet your bottom Euro on that... :)

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Losing access to the free market?, my dear chap you don't really believe that’s going to happen do you?. Quite the contrary, lets not forget the trade surplus we run with the EU, the obligations set out in the Lisbon ( spits LOUDLY ) treaty that insure a trade deal will be set up with any member states that choose to leave the EU, and on top of that what would the WTO have to say about it?. No the UK will continue to trade with the terminally stagnant EU, just as we continue to trade with the US, the Commonwealth and all those emerging markets that by 2020 will produce around 54% ( compared to the EU's 15%) of the worlds GDP. So don't you worry Arotto common sense will prevail, you can bet your bottom Euro on that... :)

:) Yes and what will happen to that surplus (which is mainly due to the huge concentration of financial services in the City) if Britian would leave? You think they would simply stay put? What makes ou think they wouldn't spread out let's say, to Dublin, Amsterdam, Frankfurt, or............ Edinburgh....? (if you know what I mean :)

The Commonwealth, the emerging markets, the US, all those are already trading with the EU (Britain) , under better negotiated bilateral terms because the EU negotiates them as a whole. A British exit would force a new negotiation of those terms with a significantly smaller weight both for Europe and for Britain.

This referendum will be motivated by political issues (which I understand and are perfectly legitimate), yet you must realise the economic consequences of leaving vs staying which are I'm afraid closed for debate :)

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:) Yes and what will happen to that surplus (which is mainly due to the huge concentration of financial services in the City) if Britian would leave? You think they would simply stay put? What makes ou think they wouldn't spread out let's say' date=' to Dublin, Amsterdam, Frankfurt, or............ Edinburgh....? (if you know what I mean :)

The Commonwealth, the emerging markets, the US, all those are already trading with the EU (Britain) , under better negotiated bilateral terms because the EU negotiates them as a whole. A British exit would force a new negotiation of those terms with a significantly smaller weight both for Europe and for Britain.

This referendum will be motivated by political issues (which I understand and are perfectly legitimate), yet you must realise the economic consequences of leaving vs staying which are I'm afraid closed for debate :)[/quote']

Who can say?, admittedly many voices in the investment banking sector are concerned at the prospect of an EU withdrawal but likewise you will find an equal amount of hedge fund managers drawling at the prospect of an EU pull out. And whilst you may speculate that the worlds financial markets will shift to the EU ( but not Scotland, they will do as they are told and leave with us ;)) I think you are underestimating the City (and the UK) as a whole. The size of its world market, its stable legal system, flexible working practices, low corporate taxes, common language and our close corporate relationship with the US means its a pretty big beast. Do you really think the EU could recreate the city of London?, I think not. Lets be honest here the inherent protectionism , stifling bureaucracy and illegal ( by EU agreement laws) activities of the EUs member states would make such a project at the very best long winded and more likely impossible to create.

Now I'm guessing you are pro EU? ( apologies if you are not) and one thing I notice ( its a theme) that your argument always stays towards fear and threat. I never hear anyone from your (?) side raising the benefits the UK brings to the EU?. After our German friends we are the second biggest economy in the EU, currently the seventh richest in the world our annual trade deficit with the EU stands at around £1 billion, we are the EUs biggest car market and behind only Germany the EUs second largest net contributor....need I go on?. Instead the argument always returns to what the UK will lose, perhaps its time to reverse the argument and ask what will happen to the EU if the UK left?.

Perhaps you are right?, maybe the economic argument should close but with the conclusion that whatever happens the UK will not starve or go bankrupt overnight. And I say this with the best will in the world, but we are not Greece, Ireland or Portugal and unlike those poor souls we don't have to go cap in hand to the Germans or fear the spiteful French we can and ( now we are finally being given the chance) will make our own minds up free from threats. :)

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You also need to remember that it is the people, not the businesses, that will be voting. Issues like the scenes at Calais and the treatment of Greece will be at the forefront of people's minds. Not the possible economic downturn.

Besides, as Longnose says, we're the world's 7th largest economy. You're daft if you reckon the only way we can survive is to remain in a sheltered club with 20 far inferior economies.

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Who can say?' date=' admittedly many voices in the investment banking sector are concerned at the prospect of an EU withdrawal but likewise you will find an equal amount of hedge fund managers drawling at the prospect of an EU pull out. And whilst you may speculate that the worlds financial markets will shift to the EU ( but not Scotland, they will do as they are told and leave with us ;)) I think you are underestimating the City (and the UK) as a whole. The size of its world market, its stable legal system, flexible working practices, low corporate taxes, common language and our close corporate relationship with the US means its a pretty big beast. Do you really think the EU could recreate the city of London?, I think not. Lets be honest here the inherent protectionism , stifling bureaucracy and illegal ( by EU agreement laws) activities of the EUs member states would make such a project at the very best long winded and more likely impossible to create.[/b']

Now I'm guessing you are pro EU? ( apologies if you are not) and one thing I notice ( its a theme) that your argument always stays towards fear and threat. I never hear anyone from your (?) side raising the benefits the UK brings to the EU?. After our German friends we are the second biggest economy in the EU, currently the seventh richest in the world our annual trade deficit with the EU stands at around £1 billion, we are the EUs biggest car market and behind only Germany the EUs second largest net contributor....need I go on?. Instead the argument always returns to what the UK will lose, perhaps its time to reverse the argument and ask what will happen to the EU if the UK left?.

Perhaps you are right?, maybe the economic argument should close but with the conclusion that whatever happens the UK will not starve or go bankrupt overnight. And I say this with the best will in the world, but we are not Greece, Ireland or Portugal and unlike those poor souls we don't have to go cap in hand to the Germans or fear the spiteful French we can and ( now we are finally being given the chance) will make our own minds up free from threats. :)

I live in an Euro country and am pro-free market intergration (my opinion about the single currency I won't express as it's not related to the debate). Look, please you must understand I'm not trying to appear threatening or frightening how could I !? My questions arose from genuine curiosity regarding the upcoming UK vote and how the British conservatives envisage the EU, that's all

My point was, and reproducing a recent slogan, UK and EU are much better together. I fear that circunstancial political motives related to Schengen, a recent surge in British radical nationalism and the mess that is the Greek crisis would lead to the UK abandoning such a decent and lucrative project.

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Be assured Arroto, i didn't find you personally threatening of frightening but the well made points you raised are already being framed by the pro Euro camp as the only reason for us to remain in the EU. Oh i forgot the other of course, namely that x amount of Britons now work or reside in EU countries, they never mention of course that they are either retired, highly skilled or as in my Brothers case an entrepreneur that has several successful business in Spain. Whereas of course many of the EU migrants to the UK are low skilled Blue coller workers whose sole purpose here is to prop up an over bloated welfare system that subsidies the idleness of equally low skilled UK nationals.

And whilst Stuart has rightly already highlighted Calais and Greece he could have mentioned the scandalous gravy train the MEP enjoy, the appalling common agriculture policy , the effects of economic migration on poorer EU countries, the bending of the rules which once more allow France and Italy to avoid sensible and agreed austerity measures or more worryingly the odious blueprint as set out in the so called ' 5 presidents plan' which will continue the unrelenting transfer of yet more powers of self determination by nation states to the EU.

You must remember we ( the UK) have been denied a say in whether or not we want to be part of a European superstate for over 40 years, historically we have chosen to remain separate to the continent for hundreds of years ( other than we saved its arse in three world wars), we were lied to back in 74 by Ted Heath, and misled by every politician since. We never signed up to this my friend and i'm afraid to say come 2017 there will be only one outcome....this charade must end. :)

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