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The Politics Thread


Stuart H

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Re: The Politics Thread

Australia going to war in Iraq with U.S? Clearly just to help the U.S because there is nothing to take in Iraq :P

Anyone else think its strange that Australia celebrates ANZAC day as a good thing but they actually attacked Turkey haha?

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Re: The Politics Thread

Australia going to war in Iraq with U.S? Clearly just to help the U.S because there is nothing to take in Iraq :P

Oil?.. they joined in on the war on Iraq as Allies ' date=' the question you need to pose yourself..is it in Australia's interest to be allied to the USA. If the answer is yes, then they went to war in Iraq not to help the USA but to further their bonds ( and ultimately their own interests) with the USA. :)[/color']

Anyone else think its strange that Australia celebrates ANZAC day as a good thing but they actually attacked them haha?

Funny but i always thought ANZAC day was about remembering the sacrifice of Australian / New Zealand war dead :confused:

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Re: The Politics Thread

I'm going to attempt to start another argument.

No countries go to war to help another' date=' they do it for their own good.

Ok now, DISCUSS![/quote']

Well some go to war to help allies which does not directly benefit them..think Canadians and wasn't there a football war?

Then there were the Boxer Rebellion and the tons of Civil wars...

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Oil?.. they joined in on the war on Iraq as Allies ' date=' the question you need to pose yourself..is it in Australia's interest to be allied to the USA. If the answer is yes, then they went to war in Iraq not to help the USA but to further their bonds ( and ultimately their own interests) with the USA. :)[/color']

Funny but i always thought ANZAC day was about remembering the sacrifice of Australian / New Zealand war dead :confused:

They might say it is, it's really about how they done a good thing as well as how they beat off the enemies even though they lost and how can they be enemies in their own territory..

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Re: The Politics Thread

Well some go to war to help allies which does not directly benefit them..think Canadians and wasn't there a football war?

Then there were the Boxer Rebellion and the tons of Civil wars...

There in lies the point' date=' which makes me say i would agree no country goes to war to help another, only for their own benefit. Then again i suppose its how far you wish to take it, using WW1 /WW2 did not assisting the mother country benefit Canada ( even indirectly), i think it probably did :)[/color']

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They might say it is' date=' it's really about how they done a good thing as well as how they beat off the enemies even though they lost and how can they be enemies in their own territory..[/quote']

I don't wish to appear rude Vlad, and please don't be offended but i have no idea of what point you are trying to make.. :confused:

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There in lies the point' date=' which makes me say i would agree no country goes to war to help another, only for their own benefit. Then again i suppose its how far you wish to take it, using WW1 /WW2 did not assisting the mother country benefit Canada ( even indirectly), i think it probably did :)[/color']

I don't think it's a case of Canada choosing to support the UK in WW1, more like they were obligated to as a member of the Commonwealth.

As for the original question, no country would get involved in a conflict without there being some sort of reward at the end of it. Whether that's colonial expansion, more money, access to raw materials or strengthening bonds between countries.

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There in lies the point' date=' which makes me say i would agree no country goes to war to help another, only for their own benefit. Then again i suppose its how far you wish to take it, using WW1 /WW2 did not assisting the mother country [b']benefit Canada ( even indirectly), i think it probably did :)[/b]

Not sure it did tbh.

The problem with that argument is that one assumes that countries are independent and not interdependent -since the level of connectivity each country has (either directly or indirectly) with each other varies.

Thus it's flawed since no one can accurately forecast (not guess) what would have happened if they did not go to war.

I would LIKE to believe that some wars were fought by countries who did not directly gain from it-and any examples I can cite may make them the exception that proves the rule.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Before I make any comments or post any queries I'd like to point out that I am by no means a supporter of the SNP.

However, in the great name of debate I'd ask a few questions...

Oil is going to run out in the next 20yrs...

Is it?

I believe the more mature fields are providing less of a return, which makes sense really due to their age, but there are more opportunities in the Atlantic Frontier.

This seems to be backed up with the proof that 46 new drilling licenses were released as recently as Dec2011.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16362266

"Oil and gas remains crucial to the UK economy - contributing around 2% to the country's GDP," said energy minister Charles Hendry.

I wouldn't argue with that. Although I would consider altering the phrasing from crucial to critical.

As for the infrastructure, I believe it has been privately funded so the UK has no claim on it.

We're a long way from relying on wind farms and hydro electric yet... :o

Although with the amount of rain that falls in Scotland we'll be glad to sell you some lovely fresh rainwater at a reasonable price.

In 1999 Tony Blair made 6,000 MILES of SCOTLAND'S SEA - ENGLISH

by moving Scotland's marine boundaries from Berwick-up-on-Tweed to Carnoustie.

So nice of Mr Blair to explain this to everyone at the time so we were all completely aware of what was being done...

I reckon there is far too much mistrust around these days, much of which is generated via the internet, which is seriously curtailing relations between countries and political parties such as the SNP are quick to jump on it and fester it.

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I reckon there is far too much mistrust around these days' date=' much of which is generated via the internet, which is seriously curtailing relations between countries and political parties such as the SNP are quick to jump on it and fester it.[/quote']

Quite true , perhaps this will put your mind at rest :)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2086465/Scottish-independence-referendum-What-Scotland-did-alone.html

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Re: The Politics Thread

For every article written in the English press I could link an equal one written in The Herald.

As I said earlier I'm not a fan of the SNP which I suppose shouldn't really matter to me as I now live in England anyway.

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As I said earlier I'm not a fan of the SNP which I suppose shouldn't really matter to me as I now live in England anyway.

I wonder how this effects guys like yourself' date=' i mean do you become a non-dom, duel national ? or do you apply to become British?. I can't help but afford a smile at the thought of all those Scots queueing up at immigration. Then again it all depends on whether an independent Scotland joins the 4th Reich ( sorry i mean the EU) i suppose. :)

Anyhow...I await with bated breath next weeks launch of the public consultation paper on proposals to introduce marriage for same-sex couples. Sadly I expect the aggressive gay lobby to usurp public opinion and allow this ridiculous idea to become law. I never thought I would see the day when a Conservative prime minister would seek to change the age old definition of marriage. The world and the Tory party appears to have gone completely mad..:( [/color']

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Re: The Politics Thread

Creating the Euro was idiotic ... discuss!

Depends on how you look at it really' date=' if you think of it the in terms that from its conception it has been an insidious method to create an unelected, undemocratic German dominated European superstate then it is succeeding beyond all expectations. B)[/color']

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Re: The Politics Thread

Creating the Euro was idiotic ... discuss!

Depends on how you look at it really' date=' if you think of it the in terms that from its conception it has been an insidious method to create an unelected, undemocratic German dominated European superstate then it is succeeding beyond all expectations. B)[/color']

I would say that the Euro was actually a good idea.

The Euro was actually created to be the instrument to bind together the members into a federalist like states of a larger body. One has to remember that the Berlin Wall came down in the late 1980's and the Maastricht Treaty was signed in 1992-since the powers that was did not want another fracturing of Europe as what had happened during the WW2.

The common currency was supposed to force the nations involved to actually show discipline in it's economic, political and social affairs. The only problem, as soon became apparent, was that the Europeans had a tendency to betray their own ideals.

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Re: The Politics Thread

I would say that the Euro was actually a good idea.

The Euro was actually created to be the instrument to bind together the members into a federalist like states of a larger body. One has to remember that the Berlin Wall came down in the late 1980's and the Maastricht Treaty was signed in 1992-since the powers that was did not want another fracturing of Europe as what had happened during the WW2.

The common currency was supposed to force the nations involved to actually show discipline in it's economic' date=' political and social affairs. The only problem, as soon became apparent, was that the Europeans had a tendency to betray their own ideals.[/quote']

In other words, to stop the reunified Germany starting another world war ? ( as they tend to do..:P), but could one not argue that Europe stands a greater chance of disintegration because of the Euro ?. The answer to that question depends on how much one values ones democracy / sovereignty. Even if you view the EU as a good thing ( i don't), was it not the case that the EURO was flawed from the start..lack of central funding ( at the insistence of the Germans), uncontrolled borrowing, incompatible economies, differing degrees of tax collection etc. At the time all of these issues were air brushed out of the picture and have resulted in what we have now, undemocratically elected governments, debt laden smaller countries and fiscal control handed over to foreign bureaucrats. :)

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In other words' date=' to stop the reunified Germany starting another world war ? ( as they tend to do..:P), but could one not argue that Europe stands a greater chance of disintegration because of the Euro ?. The answer to that question depends on how much one values ones democracy / sovereignty. Even if you view the EU as a good thing ( i don't), was it not the case that the EURO was flawed from the start..lack of central funding ( at the insistence of the Germans), uncontrolled borrowing, incompatible economies, differing degrees of tax collection etc. At the time all of these issues were air brushed out of the picture and have resulted in what we have now, undemocratically elected governments, debt laden smaller countries and fiscal control handed over to foreign bureaucrats. :)[/color']

Partly yes-the fear of any rogue nations were the driving force behind it-not to mention the envious eyes cast across at the US.

The Euro was doing fine with just the first column of nations -it's when they accepted nations whose credentials were dubious ..thats where the snag was hit.

Actually there was much debate before Maastricht was enacted about rights/responsibilities and representation-with a lot of countries like England refusing to bow to losing their "independence" (Are countries really Independent and self determining is a debate for another time)

The problem was when it was used as a political tool e.g. use Turkey as a Bulwark against Eastern Countries etc.

Great idea polluted by politicians...

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Great idea polluted by politicians...

..From an economic sense perhaps? but how about from a federalist point of view?..I stand by original point, perhaps the EURO has succeeded in as much as the Eurozone countries ( and any subsequent members) are bound to the recent (Strasbourg- i think?) fiscal treaty?. Maybe its a case of Greece burns but ultimately the European dream marches on?

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Re: The Politics Thread

Make no mistake about it the euro (SORRY EDIT: EUROPEAN UNION) was created just like all other in the begginning trade treatys as a step towards one world gov..

i pitty the fool who don't realise this.

also when fractional reserve banking has had its day (its had its day in many places in this world) don't be the fool and agree with new systyme, it will only be worse, unless its the people of the nations that introduce a new systyme.

the euro was created to control the people of europe, who was it that once said "give me all the money in the world and i care not who makes its laws" :)

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Re: The Politics Thread

Great idea polluted by politicians...

( great discussion .. loving it so far keep it going )

Now to reply to arampages' remark :

Aye' date=' the idea behind it was good and perhaps in it's early stages quite innocent and "comprehendible" ... but as it stands ... when you throw a few top politicians into the mix ... It goes downhill ... ( as it often tends to do )

I must say that as a Swede I'm overjoyed by the fact we voted no to the Euro ... and It's in our constitution that the people vote on things like this and if It's been voted down once It cannot be voted on again ( oh so wrong ... they are currently trying to change the constitution so that we can vote on it again ... the swedish prime minister and his cabinett are lobbying for Sweden to join the Euro co.operation ... because It'd greatly boost our economy ( Sweden has never had this high unemployment % ever before ... we are selling the state-owned businesses to private investors etc. cutting back on the military and elder-care because we are in a "tight-financial situation" yet our government see fit to loan money out to EU and states thar are neering bankruptcy ( Greece,Ireland,Spain etc. )

( Sorry for the long rant but what I'm trying to get through is that Sweden as a nation however small we are ... cannot contribute to EU by joining the Euro co-operation as It'd crumble our nations economy even furhter )

Just look at Greece, from what I re-call they weren't doing too bad before entering EU and taking the Euro on as a currency ...

Germany has become stronger by the Euro ... so has France ( a tad ) These 2 countries are the 2 pushing for a continued co-operation with the Euro even tho I doubt It'll stay with us for much longer ...

The Euro is doomed to fail and It's only a matter of time ... by 2015 the Euro will be dead and gone ... and everyone will realize what a vast mistake this was ... just look at Norway or Switzerland they're doing just fine without EU or the Euro ... I wonder why :rolleyes:[/center']

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..From an economic sense perhaps? but how about from a federalist point of view?..I stand by original point' date=' perhaps the EURO has succeeded in as much as the Eurozone countries ( and any subsequent members) are bound to the recent (Strasbourg- i think?) fiscal treaty?. Maybe its a case of Greece burns but ultimately the European dream marches on?[/color']

The problem with Greece, Spain, Portugal etc whose economics dragged down the zone was that the economic information submitted was not exactly kosher..

And thus flawed data led to flawed actions (like the banking crisis).

I don't think that the Eurozone will fail-or it's currency will die. The main reason is that the members can not afford for that to happen-not with a rebounding America, a galloping China and a stable Mercosar. The currency will be devalued to reflect it's members true strength...and the dream marches on!

Federalist ideals were in truth impossible to sustain under the model-simply because no one trusts each other to make decisions that affects each others well being -except America and Britain for some reason. A sham really since since Bretton woods it has been happening.

So a true federal state will not happen in our lifetime - A United Nations of Europe might though..

Edit: Norway and Switzerland are pretty much to themselves -a bit like North Korea with natural resources/sparse population and tax havens :)

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Re: The Politics Thread

Make no mistake about it the euro was created just like all other in the begginning trade treatys as a step towards one world gov..

also when fractional reserve banking has had its day (its had its day in many places in this world) don't be the fool and agree with new systyme' date=' it will only be worse, unless its the people of the nations that introduce a new systyme.[/quote']

Not sure if it will be as bad as anything we have not had before.

( great discussion .. loving it so far keep it going )

The Euro is doomed to fail and It's only a matter of time ... by 2015 the Euro will be dead and gone ... and everyone will realize what a vast mistake this was ... just look at Norway or Switzerland they're doing just fine without EU or the Euro ... I wonder why :rolleyes:

dvjx3p.jpg

The above is a map (bit outdated) of some of the major trading blocs, you can clearly see alliances need to be formed (economic/political etc) to ensure not survival but wealth generation. So instead of having the Axis and Allies it has become one of Unions and Blocs.

Many have realised that the Eurozone has not been as effective as it should be -however to dismantle the system and going back to the free for all will throw back development to the good old East vs West (have nots vs haves) with a possible rise in nationalism etc.

China's been making inroads into Africa, Caribbean, South America etc - can any one European country compete against a country with large manufacturing sector, low wages, economies of scale etc?

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Re: The Politics Thread

The problem with Greece, Spain, Portugal etc whose economics dragged down the zone was that the economic information submitted was not exactly kosher..And thus flawed data led to flawed actions (like the banking crisis).

Greece was permitted to enter the euro after claiming that its deficit was less than 1% of GDP, well below the euro’s 3% maximum level. However, European Commission reports later revealed that the Greek budget has not ever been below the 3% limit since the nation joined the euro.Except for being told by the EU and ECB to get its financial house in order, Greece was not punished for cheating. In 2005, Germany and France helped loosen the rules when they forced through the relaxation of the anti-debt “stability pact,” despite knowing that Greece had been above the 3% threshold for the previous three years.

And were ignored by both the Germans and most notably the French. Again one can only conclude it was to aid in the construction of the European superstate.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/wintour-and-watt/2011/nov/02/france-euro

Some interesting observations on the French role..

I don't think that the Eurozone will fail-or it's currency will die. The main reason is that the members can not afford for that to happen-not with a rebounding America, a galloping China and a stable Mercosar. The currency will be devalued to reflect it's members true strength...and the dream marches on!

Federalist ideals were in truth impossible to sustain under the model-simply because no one trusts each other to make decisions that affects each others well being -except America and Britain for some reason. A sham really since since Bretton woods it has been happening.

So a true federal state will not happen in our lifetime - A United Nations of Europe might though..

Whilst moreover i think the currency will be devalued to increase the strength of the dominant German economy, I can only agree :)And as for your map, well thats where the bother really starts :eek:

http://stexpanded.wikia.com/wiki/World_War_III#Aftermath.2C_first_contact.2C_and_the_legacy_of_WW3

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Re: The Politics Thread

The problem with Greece' date=' Spain, Portugal etc whose economics dragged down the zone was that the economic information submitted was not exactly kosher..And thus flawed data led to flawed actions (like the banking crisis).[/b']

And were ignored by both the Germans and most notably the French. Again one can only conclude it was to aid in the construction of the European superstate.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/wintour-and-watt/2011/nov/02/france-euro

Some interesting observations on the French role..

I don't think that the Eurozone will fail-or it's currency will die. The main reason is that the members can not afford for that to happen-not with a rebounding America, a galloping China and a stable Mercosar. The currency will be devalued to reflect it's members true strength...and the dream marches on!

Federalist ideals were in truth impossible to sustain under the model-simply because no one trusts each other to make decisions that affects each others well being -except America and Britain for some reason. A sham really since since Bretton woods it has been happening.

So a true federal state will not happen in our lifetime - A United Nations of Europe might though..

Whilst moreover i think the currency will be devalued to increase the strength of the dominant German economy, I can only agree :)And as for your map, well thats where the bother really starts :eek:

http://stexpanded.wikia.com/wiki/World_War_III#Aftermath.2C_first_contact.2C_and_the_legacy_of_WW3

i know that USA were printing much more money(which in reality doesnt exists) and we are on the verge of 2nd recesion cause of that,theirs economy didnt make so much profit,but yet they were printing and printing money without real value which will affect whole globe:mad:,i think 3rd ww is invietable,and they shouldnt allow Greece to join union with such horrible economy/we know how people are checked with applications for jobs and universities,yet they dont check whole country:mad:,that people should go straight to gun squad!

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