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Re: The Politics Thread

Thats about the second decent post I'v seen you make' date=' and I agree with what you say there. The USA seem too think they can rule the world and enforce everyone to live to there conservative laws. Give it 100 years or so and the States of America particulary in the south will want independence from Washington and become truly self ruling.[/quote']

Is it a need for resources or the ideology of the US and her allies that drives policy? China needs resources to fuel its huge economy (which supports the US one because its bought up huge chunks of US bonds (US debts)), and thus are leveraging itself in most resource rich areas of the globe. Is it like that or the innate belief in the Monroe doctrine and world policeman shtick?

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Re: The Politics Thread

Latest news coming out of Libya is that the 'barbaric western crusaders' have killed 48 civilians with our air strikes earlier in the evening and are now claiming that there 'brave well trained men' have shot down NATO planes .. Planes < that means there's been a second if there not exaggerating.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Gaddafi makes me sick. Can only hope he doesn't go hide in a hole so he can face justice ASAP :mad:

Can kind of see where Pluto's coming from too though. There are several more, possibly more pressing, situations that need looking at in Africa (Sudan? Somali pirates?) which are much less lucrative...

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Re: The Politics Thread

As tragic as the resort to violence is (civilians will die at the hands as a result of the UN sanction bombing), it is unfortunately a necessary evil to save the lives of countless more civilians from Gaddafi's brutality. But, the relative speed and unanimity of the UN resolution against Gaddafi (which I personally welcome) also only serves to highlight the total hypocrisy in world affairs and the vested interests underlying such decisions.

People have already noted here the absence of intervention in Bahrain and certain African cases (+ of course the ongoing violence in and around the DRC - the world's deadliest conflict since WWII). In addition to relative apathy towards these conflicts notable absences of intervention include the Bangladesh Liberation War (the U.S. deplored the intervention of Indian forces seeking to stop the massacre of countless civilians against its ally Pakistan even though the war killed up to as many as 3 million), the complete absence of any Security Council condemnation of Iraq's invasion of Iran in Sept 1980 (a war that led to deaths in the region of 1 million), and of course the acquiescence and willing complicity by delaying any UN Sec Co resolution during the 2006 Israel-Lebanon War (leading to some 100 times more civilian deaths in Lebanon than Israel).

The sad reality is that many of our own governments have as much blood on their hands as does Gaddafi, a fact that is conveniently forgotten at times like these. :(

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Re: The Politics Thread

As tragic as the resort to violence is (civilians will die at the hands as a result of the UN sanction bombing)' date=' it is unfortunately a necessary evil to save the lives of countless more civilians from Gaddafi's brutality. But, the relative speed and unanimity of the UN resolution against Gaddafi (which I personally welcome) also only serves to highlight the total hypocrisy in world affairs and the vested interests underlying such decisions.

People have already noted here the absence of intervention in Bahrain and certain African cases (+ of course the ongoing violence in and around the DRC - the world's deadliest conflict since WWII). In addition to relative apathy towards these conflicts notable absences of intervention include the Bangladesh Liberation War (the U.S. deplored the intervention of Indian forces seeking to stop the massacre of countless civilians against its ally Pakistan even though the war killed up to as many as 3 million), the complete absence of any Security Council condemnation of Iraq's invasion of Iran in Sept 1980 (a war that led to deaths in the region of 1 million), and of course the acquiescence and willing complicity by delaying any UN Sec Co resolution during the 2006 Israel-Lebanon War (leading to some 100 times more civilian deaths in Lebanon than Israel).

The sad reality is that many of our own governments have as much blood on their hands as does Gaddafi, a fact that is conveniently forgotten at times like these. :([/quote']

Difficult to argue with that sentiment Jooles, I agree the UN has long been proved to be a flawed institution. That said It must be noted this is not only caused by the Western members of the security council ( US / UK / France) but also the Chinese and Russians. Both of these regimes have (now and in the past) appalling human rights records and a bloody minded approach their own self interests by vetoing any resolution put forward by the West. You would also need to consider Africa's inability to act in both Zimbabwe and Rwanda.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Difficult to argue with that sentiment Jooles' date=' I agree the UN has long been proved to be a flawed institution. That said It must be noted this is not only caused by the Western members of the security council ( US / UK / France) but also the Chinese and Russians. Both of these regimes have (now and in the past) appalling human rights records and a bloody minded approach their own self interests by vetoing any resolution put forward by the West. You would also need to consider Africa's inability to act in both Zimbabwe and Rwanda.

[/color']

The UN as flawed (or more particularly the Security Council)? Oh, very much agreed, but flawed by design. Arguably it's one of the last vestiges of the old world order that keeps the UK and France able to cling to some semblance of power (well that and nukes, the economic side is another kettle of fish, as say Japan can probably tesitfy now to their detriment).

Undoubtedly the Chinese and Russians have had, and continue to have, appalling human rights records, but so too do the British and Americans (look no further than the plight of the native Americans and/or black slaves, for example).

As for 'vetoing any resolution put forward by the West', well in Russia's case yes, but really only during the Cold War. Since then the Americans (and then the British) have led the way there (often with regards to unyielding support for Israel). But as for China's use of the veto, China? No, that doesn't hold. As we've seen in the last day with Libya even, the Chinese adopt a non-interventionist approach to the affairs of others, which makes perfect sense given their stance on Taiwan and Tibet (not to mention Xinjiang).

A breakdown of the veto use looks like this:

800px-UNSC_veto.svg.png

But yeah, you're also dead right that Africa's inability (and unwillingness) to act in cases such as Rwanada and Zimbabwe (and again, the DRC) should be taken into account. It does further complicates matters, as indeed should consideration of the roll of the colonial and Cold War powers that contributed to the political situations in many African countries themselves (Rwanda and Zimbabwe for example).

Clearly things are very complicated and any simple sound-bites, so often rolled out like times like these, belie the historical antecedents that often are the elephants in the room.

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Re: The Politics Thread

So the French have banned the burqa and other face covering garments proving once again that they are a bunch of mentals. I'd be interested to hear peoples views on this, given what I've gauged from some peoples political preferences I suspect I might be in the minority in believing this measure sucks.

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Re: The Politics Thread

So the French have banned the burqa and other face covering garments proving once again that they are a bunch of mentals. I'd be interested to hear peoples views on this' date=' given what I've gauged from some peoples political preferences I suspect I might be in the minority in believing this measure sucks.[/quote']

I just don't see the reasoning behind it :confused:

Not something I can foresee being introduced in the UK at any rate. There are about 200,000 burka wearers in France and around 5 million Muslims. I think I'd be right in saying the UK figures dwarf that.

I don't know what to make of it at all, seems against human rights really :P

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Re: The Politics Thread

I just don't see the reasoning behind it :confused:

Not something I can foresee being introduced in the UK at any rate. There are about 200' date='000 burka wearers in France and around 5 million Muslims. I think I'd be right in saying the UK figures dwarf that.

I don't know what to make of it at all, seems against human rights really :P[/quote']

is it really ?

i am indian but born in england. only speak english.

ive been to the maldives. and dubai.

if you do not conform to their way of like well, im sure you know of the punishments.

alcohol or **** into the country ? prison.

wear normal western clothing in a market in oman or abu dhabi ?

hmm not a wise move. the fact is england is very tolerant actually.

my opinion is that ethnic minorities asking for too much create a problem of racism. eg asking for sharia law. no get out , if you dont like the laws of the land leave.

it provides ammunition to racist groups, if they didnt make ridiculous requests then they couldnt use the " taking over our country" argument.

so i disagree about a breach of human rights. i think england has taken a very respectful stance and is indeed significantly better then the rest of the world. here you say it is a human right, other countries you have far less rights.

what qualifies as rights and what qualifies as becoming so eager to accomodate rights that you get responses / problems as i detailed above is a very debateable topic.

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Re: The Politics Thread

At the risk of sounding racist or whatever ( I am sincerely not, i assure you ) i shall give my thoughts on this matter.

I think rooneyisyummy ( seriously i need your name so i dont have to type that out ever again :D ) has raised a very important and interesting point.

However, first i shall say why i feel there is reasoning behind doing this.

I think the most obvious benefit from this is security. In a world where terror and crime ( from all people, not just muslims ), security of the wider public has to be prioritized. Burkas conceal the whole body making identification virtually impossible. People, who arent Muslims have even been found to use these as a disguise whilst committing crimes.

Secondly i think its about integration. Its well documented through the news that alot of Muslims ( if you are a muslim feel free to tell me your stance on this ) feel isolated amongst communities, especially since the "war on terror".

Burkas alienate the people who wear them even more and i know when i see them, i dont like it and i know others dont to. If they arent their, it removes a point of friction.

The point brought up by Rooneyisyummy ( dam it ! i said it again).

I dont wish to be crude, Britain is a liberal place, which promotes equality but it comes to a point where if you dont stand by the values and principles of our native people, or certainly respect them. Why the hell are you in our country ? If you hate it so much, leave. Obviously many wont as they are recieving lots of nice benefits like the NHS ,accommodation and support from the welfare system. The very fact they ask for such ludicrous laws such as Sharia law to be introduced is beyond me !!!! :mad:

Last year when i was on placement year, i lived with a Muslim who was very open about religion. Firstly he was a practicing Muslim, and so took religion very seriously. HOWEVER he condemned the Burka. He can read arabic fluently and assured me ( on a number of occassions ) that at NO point does the Qur'an say woman should be covered from head to toe. It says something along the lines of ( cover what is different ) be modest !!

The things i hate about religion is the fact of how easily it can be misinterpreted and forced upon the uneducated ( not all followers of religion are uneducated i know ) and things are accepted without question.... like the use of a Burka despite it not being advocated clearly by the Qur'an

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Re: The Politics Thread

At the risk of sounding racist or whatever ( I am sincerely not' date=' i assure you ) i shall give my thoughts on this matter.

I think [i']rooneyisyummy[/i] ( seriously i need your name so i dont have to type that out ever again :D ) has raised a very important and interesting point.

However, first i shall say why i feel there is reasoning behind doing this.

I think the most obvious benefit from this is security. In a world where terror and crime ( from all people, not just muslims ), security of the wider public has to be prioritized. Burkas conceal the whole body making identification virtually impossible. People, who arent Muslims have even been found to use these as a disguise whilst committing crimes.

Secondly i think its about integration. Its well documented through the news that alot of Muslims ( if you are a muslim feel free to tell me your stance on this ) feel isolated amongst communities, especially since the "war on terror".

Burkas alienate the people who wear them even more and i know when i see them, i dont like it and i know others dont to. If they arent their, it removes a point of friction.

The point brought up by Rooneyisyummy ( dam it ! i said it again).

I dont wish to be crude, Britain is a liberal place, which promotes equality but it comes to a point where if you dont stand by the values and principles of our native people, or certainly respect them. Why the hell are you in our country ? If you hate it so much, leave. Obviously many wont as they are recieving lots of nice benefits like the NHS ,accommodation and support from the welfare system. The very fact they ask for such ludicrous laws such as Sharia law to be introduced is beyond me !!!! :mad:

Last year when i was on placement year, i lived with a Muslim who was very open about religion. Firstly he was a practicing Muslim, and so took religion very seriously. HOWEVER he condemned the Burka. He can read arabic fluently and assured me ( on a number of occassions ) that at NO point does the Qur'an say woman should be covered from head to toe. It says something along the lines of ( cover what is different ) be modest !!

The things i hate about religion is the fact of how easily it can be misinterpreted and forced upon the uneducated ( not all followers of religion are uneducated i know ) and things are accepted without question.... like the use of a Burka despite it not being advocated clearly by the Qur'an

face shouldnt be covered or hands to wrists and legst to wrists but if someone likes to wear burqa its not forbidden,its clear law against muslims and they will make just more terrorists with that,its clear racists law

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Re: The Politics Thread

I have no problem with the French stance and would fully support a similar move in England. As others have pointed out before me, whenever we visit Muslim countries, we have to adhere to their ways of life and respect their culture. In England, many Muslims ignore our ways of life. It's not natural to show nothing but your eyes on the high street and I don't agree that it should be allowed.

Furthermore, you have many of these Burqa-wearers not only integrating into our society but also taking on jobs that will greatly affect others. For example, I remember hearing one story of a woman who was a teacher at a primary school and wore a Burqa, and she was eventually dismissed for her choice of clothing. She appealed the decision as being against her human right yet is it right for young children to be learning and developing their cognitive skills from somebody who it is impossible to judge facial expressions and body language, something that is imperative to children in such early stages of their lives? Of course not, and there are hundreds of other jobs which will have implications of various natures.

Like Adam says, the Burqa is not mentioned in the Qur'an and only in recent years (~15 years or so) has it become more commonplace. You have to question why this is so.

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Re: The Politics Thread

face shouldnt be covered or hands to wrists and legst to wrists but if someone likes to wear burqa its not forbidden' date='its clear law against muslims and they will make just more terrorists with that,its clear racists law[/quote']

Why would anyone CHOOSE to wear a Burka its been pushed upon people by oppression and the fact no one chooses to question their religious superiors.

If its not clearly required by Islam and its holy book, there is no ground to not ban it considering the security and social problems it can cause.

There is obviously some ethical issues to deal wit here, but as it serves no purpose. I dont see an issue with banning it.

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Re: The Politics Thread

...............

what ? that is my actual name ;)

also the first thing is true: you cannot wear hoodies inside shopping areas sometimes. same with burkahs surely ?

about integreation: anything that is seen as different WILL usually be accomodated with negative attitudes. its human nature, integreation is easier if you speak the language and dress in the same way for obvious reasons. first generation immigrants will struggle with the language. the rest should not though. in my own case i have seen this and if people think that is not acceptable im willing to debate that fact.

i have heard of supermarket cashiers refusing to serve alcohol on religious grounds: all i have to say to that is bull...

they cannot do their job, should be sacked. fine they have religious issues with serving alcohol, find another job then. you cannot have a policeman say no, i wont help that old lady because my religion forbids any use of violence...

that causes friction and they should be sacked and i hate them personally. hard working immirants with ambition and education are being tarnished by these fools.

and the part on the NHS etc. yeah thats why britain is a great country, but you have to provide too. pay taxes. work. immigrants arent the only ones not doing it, plenty of english in the working class areas don't contribute to society either. both parties are guilty but obviously as an immigant it is expected to draw more of the flak.

asking for laws is just downright stupid. wont even discuss it further. it isnt a debate it is a fact.

i hate it when people hide behind religion. those examples being people who refuse to serve alcohol.

im not white myself and i know many want me out of the country for it, look at the BNP and other group members. not all of them i know, but certainly some.

i think immigrants have a responsibility in the way they act to ensure a peaceful community.

i can't stop people being racist, but people giving them ammunition really does anger me.

tarnished with the same brush and the rest of it.

its the same with most problems of society: the majority are fine.

it is the minority who screw things up and then that is the image that gets associated with that particular group of people.

and yes incase people are wondering: im very opinionated on anything from football to pretty much anything where morals are involved ;)

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Re: The Politics Thread

Why would anyone CHOOSE to wear a Burka its been pushed upon people by oppression and the fact no one chooses to question their religious superiors.

If its not clearly required by Islam and its holy book' date=' there is no ground to not ban it considering the security and social problems it can cause.

There is obviously some ethical issues to deal wit here, but as it serves no purpose. I dont see an issue with banning it.[/quote']

some are forced to yes.

but not all.

it is not always pushed onto people, that is a generalisation. i personally wear no religious items. i dont even wear a watch i get annoyed with that kind of stuff.

(i do wear clothes though im not a complete minimalist ok people so dont worry)

anyway some women will want to wear burkhas.

dressing "modestly" is down to interpreation, im sure in the Bible there are plenty of statements in there that are now down to interpretation.

people will have varying degress of how much they follow the statements :)

not all people who do it are opressed.

does anybody remember the british airways worker suspended for showing a cross during work hours ?

that takes the mickey, really does. whatever fool decided that was the correct thing do i would love to talk too.

i bet the idiot gets paid 20X more than i ever will as a high acheiving businessmen, but he hasn't got an IQ above 25 i would imagine.

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Re: The Politics Thread

So the French have banned the burqa and other face covering garments proving once again that they are a bunch of mentals. I'd be interested to hear peoples views on this' date=' given what I've gauged from some peoples political preferences I suspect I might be in the minority in believing this measure sucks.[/quote']

Whilst fully accepted the many well made points from previous contributers I personally think its a sad day when a government can decide what a person wears. If you consider our tolerant nature / history ( dating back 100's of years) I think it would be an awful shame if such a law was passed over here..its just not British you know !!

I just don't see the reasoning behind it :confused:

Not something I can foresee being introduced in the UK at any rate. There are about 200' date='000 burka wearers in France and around 5 million Muslims. I think I'd be right in saying the UK figures dwarf that.

I don't know what to make of it at all, seems against human rights really :P[/quote']

I'm not 100% sure but I believe the French Muslim population is larger than ours? maybe even the biggest in Europe?

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Re: The Politics Thread

Whilst fully accepted the many well made points from previous contributers I personally think its a sad day when a government can decide what a person wears. If you consider our tolerant nature / history ( dating back 100's of years) I think it would be an awful shame if such a law was passed over here..its just not British you know !!

I was just about to form a reply to the other responses but it seems you've saved me a job. I wholeheartedly agree, and while I appreciate that people have given valid arguments and I'm sure there is a logic to the decision, you've hit upon what is basically my problem with it.

Edit: Not that I'm in love with the burqa by any means, or have a better alternative, but I'd have thought a good start would be to empower the women instead of making them the pariah...

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Re: The Politics Thread

some are forced to yes.

but not all.

it is not always pushed onto people' date=' that is a generalisation. i personally wear no religious items. i dont even wear a watch i get annoyed with that kind of stuff.

(i do wear clothes though im not a complete minimalist ok people so dont worry)

anyway some women will want to wear burkhas.

dressing "modestly" is down to interpreation, im sure in the Bible there are plenty of statements in there that are now down to interpretation.

people will have varying degress of how much they follow the statements :)

not all people who do it are opressed.

does anybody remember the british airways worker suspended for showing a cross during work hours ?

that takes the mickey, really does. whatever fool decided that was the correct thing do i would love to talk too.

i bet the idiot gets paid 20X more than i ever will as a high acheiving businessmen, but he hasn't got an IQ above 25 i would imagine.[/quote']

I know its not always forced but i can reckon, that the vast majority that arent forced to wear a Burka, wear one because they dont know any different. Its what they have been told from an early age. Why would they question it ?

It serves no purpose and isnt required by Islam. There arent many logicial explanations for its explosion in recent years ?

There are more than enough statements that are open to interpenetration in the bible. In my first post RE this topic i said its one of the reasons i hate religion. Except none of the interpretations in the Bible cause such social difficulties ( others such as views on homosexuality are pretty similar to all other religions) .

I do remember that incident. Ridiculous.

I dont want put the Burka and the cross in the same bracket though. One causes several security and social issues. one doesnt

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Re: The Politics Thread

Just taking a brief look at this and here is a quick couple of things to consider ....

1. French authorities say that only about 1,900 women wear the burqa or the niqab, two versions of the full covering with a mesh or slit for the eyes. That’s .038 percent of France’s Muslim population of about 5 million that’s now deemed a threat to the French Republic and its values.

2. An opinion poll suggesting far-right leader Marine Le Pen ( google her dad..not a nice man !!) could win the first round of next year's presidential election has caused a shock in France.

The survey for Le Parisien newspaper puts the National Front leader, who took over from her father Jean-Marie in January, ahead of all other candidates.

It gives her 23% of the vote, 2% ahead of both President Nicolas Sarkozy and Socialist leader Martine Aubry.

The cynic in me has started to think that this is a desperate attempt by a failing Sarkozy to harness the legitimate concerns of the French population about not only Immigration ( Muslim) but the nightmare which is the EU?

Don't get me wrong I am 100% for European Identity and the hugely positive impact of Western civilization on the world...this is a million miles away from both in my opinion. :)

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Re: The Politics Thread

There are more than enough statements that are open to interpenetration in the bible. In my first post RE this topic i said its one of the reasons i hate religion. Except none of the interpretations in the Bible cause such social difficulties ( others such as views on homosexuality are pretty similar to all other religions) .

I do remember that incident. Ridiculous.

I dont want put the Burka and the cross in the same bracket though. One causes several security and social issues. one doesnt

you wear your clothes from an early age, why would you question that ?

it is just what you are used too. people wear it "because they have not been told different"

well neither have you or I, im guessing. just culture.

that is why it is probably still present, a more traditional dress that is still worn. i get the idea you think thats a bad thing ?

yes it is bad, i agree with you IF people wear it when they have no choice.

but if you wear it because you are brought up that way fair enough.

as long as you have a FREE CHOICE in what you do, there is no problem with it :) seeing as this is a dressing in your own community, wear it in your community. the public hasn't taken to it, for right or wrong. i think people need to limit where they are worn.

its explosion in recent years hmmm. i see your point. but as i said people will wear this because they are used to, the norm in their society. reasons for this massive increase could be as follows:

more muslim immigrants? not sure. the stats could be looked up though.

im thinking the biggest rise is the media or troubles with the burkha. the number has stayed the same but the issues surrounding it / contreversey has increased. i cant remember the last time i saw somebody wearing it.

i think the media attention had made it seem more of a problem then it was previously ?

views on homosexuality? no problems because here, in england we are tolerant. other countries, especially islamic countries actually prohibit homosexuality.

there are people who say it is wrong due to the bible.

most people here i think use their common sense, the bible is an old book and dosn't apply to todays rules and societies.

it is all down to interpreation. or ill put it bluntly: whether people want to grow up or not or like to be pathetic and use the bible to back up their own personal beliefs to make themselves feel rightous.

and the cross was actually part of my point, if you cannot wear a cross explain to me why you can wear any other religious garment?

also if your offended by that get out of england. as i have said im an ethnic minority and i find it so disgusting that people are offended by a cross.

seems like double standards to me ? a cross causes no problems whatsoever, but still gets discriminated against :confused:

i honestly think somebody needs to send a suggestions ticket into 10 downing street.

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Re: The Politics Thread

you wear your clothes from an early age' date=' why would you question that ?

it is just what you are used too. people wear it "because they have not been told different"

well neither have you or I, im guessing. just culture.

that is why it is probably still present, a more traditional dress that is still worn. i get the idea you think thats a bad thing ?

yes it is bad, i agree with you IF people wear it when they have no choice.

but if you wear it because you are brought up that way fair enough.

as long as you have a FREE CHOICE in what you do, there is no problem with it :) seeing as this is a dressing in your own community, wear it in your community. the public hasn't taken to it, for right or wrong. i think people need to limit where they are worn.

its explosion in recent years hmmm. i see your point. but as i said people will wear this because they are used to, the norm in their society. reasons for this massive increase could be as follows:

more muslim immigrants? not sure. the stats could be looked up though.

im thinking the biggest rise is the media or troubles with the burkha. the number has stayed the same but the issues surrounding it / contreversey has increased. i cant remember the last time i saw somebody wearing it.

i think the media attention had made it seem more of a problem then it was previously ?

views on homosexuality? no problems because here, in england we are tolerant. other countries, especially islamic countries actually prohibit homosexuality.

there are people who say it is wrong due to the bible.

most people here i think use their common sense, the bible is an old book and dosn't apply to todays rules and societies.

it is all down to interpreation. or ill put it bluntly: whether people want to grow up or not or like to be pathetic and use the bible to back up their own personal beliefs to make themselves feel rightous.

and the cross was actually part of my point, if you cannot wear a cross explain to me why you can wear any other religious garment?

also if your offended by that get out of england. as i have said im an ethnic minority and i find it so disgusting that people are offended by a cross.

seems like double standards to me ? a cross causes no problems whatsoever, but still gets discriminated against :confused:

i honestly think somebody needs to send a suggestions ticket into 10 downing street.[/quote']

Your taking it out of context completely.

Do the clothes i wear oppress woman ? Do they cause sever social issues and do they cause a security threat.

No.

The Burka has become more common in other countries to, including arabic countries.

The best option would be to empower the woman as previously suggested except thats never going to happen.

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Re: The Politics Thread

Do the French government not realise that if I wanted to commit a criminal/terrorist offence, I could easily conceal my identity several other ways?:rolleyes:

Furthermore, this is likely to cause more tension between Muslims and the rest of the French people, rather than bring them together.

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