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Alonso and Fabregas

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Re: Alonso and Fabregas

When two players do not play the same position, the only way to compare them is by how influential they are over the course of the game.

With that being said, it is pretty clear to me that Fabregas is the better player here. In every game I watch him, he is the clear link from defense to attack, is always willing to drop back to get the ball on his feet, makes wonderful, incisive passes and forward runs of his own, and scores and assists goals at will for club and country.

Alonso is a great long distance passer and spreader of the ball, with the occasional long range goal or great assist. Defensively, he is pretty good, nothing altogether special. I would consider Essien, Cambiasso, Busquets, De Rossi, Song, De Jong all to be of much higher caliber when it comes to breaking up the attack, and that is the main objective of a defensive midfielder. I believe someone had mentioned a while ago that Alonso was the most accurate passer in la liga, or something of that nature. If so, that doesnt take into account where the pass went and what the end result of the play was. His passing may be great, but its nothing even close to fab's. Cesc is always looking to score, always looking to go forward and always looking for that final ball to set the attacker free. Their passing is much different, and Fabregas passes like a game changer while Alonso passes as a part of a machine, just one link in the train tracks.

You do not see Alonso changing games at will for Madrid or Spain, while Fabregas does it on a regular basis for Arsenal, and was a huge catalyst for Spain in the World Cup (especially in the final.) It is very obvious to me whom I would rather have, and who the "better" player is.

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Re: Alonso and Fabregas

When Alonso was there Liverpool were pretty mighty and were most certainly better than Arsenal. It's tantamount to his influence there that since he's left their performances have dropped so significantly.

It's really not. I think you're underestimating Alonso's importance a hell of a lot. IMO he's the best deep-lying play-maker in the world though it's true that Fabregas would be a clear international starter were he born in any other country. Your counter is a little far-fetched. Alonso isn't playing in a second rate league' date=' isn't in the twilight of his career and his national manager wasn't a crackhead.

[b']That's irrelevant. You've already stated they play different roles. [/b]

Also irrelevant. You can't rate players on age. Give Lukaku a 97?

You're planning on rating players by a single game now? Especially one he wasn't good enough to start in. It's also worth mentioning that Alonso did his job as Spain kept a clean sheet.

All your points are incredibly weak though. Alonso is the best in the world at what he does. There are several better than Fabregas at what he does. Fabregas shouldn't be a 95.

Liverpool weren't much better than Arsenal at all. What a load of rubbish. Liverpool and Arsenal were usually trading 3rd and 4th places with Arsenal sustaining the bigger title challenge in 2007/2008 than Liverpool's 2008/2009. Alonso wasn't even regarded as one of the top 3 players at Liverpool. That is a fact. Arsenal champions league aside have beaten Liverpool plenty of times down the last few years including Carling Cup League and Fa Cup.

Fabregas made the PFA team of the year twice while Alonso never got in it. Fabregas also won a PFA young player. Alonso also never won a player of the month award while Fabregas had it twice.

How is it irrelevent? If you are comparing their positions in the National Team with Alonso 'keeping Fabregas out' then you have to compare their goals et al for their clubs. That's why i made the comment. Poor point. You can't have it both ways.

The point being was Alonso a regular NT player at Fabregas' age of 23? Nice exagerated point however. Nice to see you ignored my Juan Sebastian Veron-Cambiasso remark.

Using that one game implies that Fabregas made a bigger impression than Alonso. That one assist by Fabregas was bigger than anything Alonso did all game. Why couldn't Alonso do anything despite playing the whole game? Busquets is the primary DM not Alonso so using the DM excuse is pointless.

When has Alonso ever controlled a game like Fabregas today against Chelsea? AC Milan away? Real Madrid away? I could go on but i know there is no hope of you being able to name an enormous game where Alonso has grabbed his team by the scruff of the neck and led by example like Fabregas. Alonso is a fantastic player but Fabregas is better as emplified by the fact he won awards Alonso did not while they were both in the premiership. Surely a good basis for an argument as both players had an equal footing with Fabregas obviously standing out.

This thread wouldn't even exist if this were last year because it would get laughed at. But now Fabregas has suffered injuries its easy to point the finger. It's like saying Van Der Vaart is better than Fabregas on the basis that he's on better form. Fickle. Similar to the Rooney as good as Messi or something along those lines comments.

Anyone would take an on form Fabregas over an on form Alonso.

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Re: Alonso and Fabregas

Liverpool weren't much better than Arsenal at all. What a load of rubbish. Liverpool and Arsenal were usually trading 3rd and 4th places with Arsenal sustaining the bigger title challenge in 2007/2008 than Liverpool's 2008/2009. Alonso wasn't even regarded as one of the top 3 players at Liverpool. That is a fact. Arsenal champions league aside have beaten Liverpool plenty of times down the last few years including Carling Cup League and Fa Cup.

Fabregas made the PFA team of the year twice while Alonso never got in it. Fabregas also won a PFA young player. Alonso also never won a player of the month award while Fabregas had it twice.

How is it irrelevent? If you are comparing their positions in the National Team with Alonso 'keeping Fabregas out' then you have to compare their goals et al for their clubs. That's why i made the comment. Poor point. You can't have it both ways.

The point being was Alonso a regular NT player at Fabregas' age of 23? Nice exagerated point however. Nice to see you ignored my Juan Sebastian Veron-Cambiasso remark.

Using that one game implies that Fabregas made a bigger impression than Alonso. That one assist by Fabregas was bigger than anything Alonso did all game. Why couldn't Alonso do anything despite playing the whole game? Busquets is the primary DM not Alonso so using the DM excuse is pointless.

When has Alonso ever controlled a game like Fabregas today against Chelsea? AC Milan away? Real Madrid away? I could go on but i know there is no hope of you being able to name an enormous game where Alonso has grabbed his team by the scruff of the neck and led by example like Fabregas. Alonso is a fantastic player but Fabregas is better as emplified by the fact he won awards Alonso did not while they were both in the premiership. Surely a good basis for an argument as both players had an equal footing with Fabregas obviously standing out.

This thread wouldn't even exist if this were last year because it would get laughed at. But now Fabregas has suffered injuries its easy to point the finger. It's like saying Van Der Vaart is better than Fabregas on the basis that he's on better form. Fickle. Similar to the Rooney as good as Messi or something along those lines comments.

Anyone would take an on form Fabregas over an on form Alonso.

2007/08 arsenal finished 3rd with 83 points

2008/09 liverpool finished 2nd with 86 points

would you like to kindly explain how arsenal sustained the bigger title challenge mr howlett?

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Re: Alonso and Fabregas

very biased arsenal fan there

fabregas is 95 because he's arsenals top player, captain and scores plenty of goals and assists

alonso is deserves 95 but wont get it unless real madrid start winning titles under mourinho is my opinion

also i wish that when a thread is made people would stick to the question instead of whether liverpool is better than arsenal

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Guest Phill

Re: Alonso and Fabregas

Anyone would take an on form Fabregas over an on form Alonso.

Except me and anyone else with a footballing brain.

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Re: Alonso and Fabregas

94 is fair for alonso

fabregas should be 93

that would make everything fair

fabregas should be 93 ? one of the most stupid things i have ever heard.

Y

The only reason he starts ahead of Fabregas for the NT is because he plays a deeper position on the pitch than Cesc which fits perfectly into Del Bosque's plans.

they are different players.

you may as well compare alonso and de gea.

fabregas better attacking, alonso better DM.

those of you saying long passes, well fabregas has an awesome long through ball too. just see some of his passes they are outstanding. if you watch football you would see ( and surely must have heard) fabregas key asset is passing.

anyway, fabregas fully deserves 95, whether alonso does or dosn't is open to debate.

but people need to stop saying fabregas is rubbish he cant even get in the spain team.

he is so bad barca tried and failed to buy him B)

fabregas deserves his 95 end of. anybody who suggests otherwise is so biased they need to check themselves out.

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Re: Alonso and Fabregas

fabregas should be 93 ? one of the most stupid things i have ever heard.

they are different players.

you may as well compare alonso and de gea.

fabregas better attacking' date=' alonso better DM.

those of you saying long passes, well fabregas has an awesome long through ball too. just see some of his passes they are outstanding. if you watch football you would see ( and surely must have heard) fabregas key asset is passing.

anyway, fabregas fully deserves 95, whether alonso does or dosn't is open to debate.

but people need to stop saying fabregas is rubbish he cant even get in the spain team.

he is so bad barca tried and failed to buy him B)

fabregas deserves his 95 end of. anybody who suggests otherwise is so biased they need to check themselves out.[/quote']

most clueless comment ive ever read

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Guest Phill

Re: Alonso and Fabregas

Fabregas does deserve a 95, I'm not arguing with that, but the point many people are trying to get to is that Alonso has the right to be higher rated because he plays for the national team. Fabregas will get it eventually, but I don't think he should get the 96 until he plays for the national team. Alonso should and deserves to be on the same rating.

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Re: Alonso and Fabregas

using rooneyisyummys logic it is

again' date=' as asked explain why.

summary: fabregas does no deserve to be 93. that is not clueless so you can't be saying im wrong there.

fabregas also being good at long passing, which he is.

saying people cant say alonso is better then fabregas or vice versa as they are different players.

again this is true. dm/cm cm/am see even SM agrees with the clueless me.

if anybody is clueless it is you, i can provide ample infomation to back myself up.

feel free to suggest whatever you like because it is clear i have made a sound argument. :)

edit:

Strange person, you know nothing about football so leave the forum

http://forum.soccermanager.com/converse.php?u=23259&u2=8643

aah it seems more than just me think your an idiot.

reply if you want but i won't be spending much time with you.

you seem so stupid it would be a waste of my time.

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Re: Alonso and Fabregas

most clueless comment ive ever read

Your such an idiot... The comment he posted is true. Anyone who watches football would agree with what rooney said.

Just seems like your looking for pointless arguments. Maybe you can give a define answer as to why you think Cesc is so bad?

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Re: Alonso and Fabregas

I would prefer to have Alonso in my team then Fabregas

When alonso was at liverpool he was the key player in the team

He held them together and when he left for Madrid Liverpool went downhill from there and have never been the same team since

Fabregas is an unbelievable player but Alonso is better:p

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Re: Alonso and Fabregas

Your such an idiot... The comment he posted is true. Anyone who watches football would agree with what rooney said.

Just seems like your looking for pointless arguments. Maybe you can give a define answer as to why you think Cesc is so bad?

thanks, i was starting to doubt myself ha.

i am not going insane thankfully :):)

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Re: Alonso and Fabregas

Liverpool weren't much better than Arsenal at all. What a load of rubbish. Liverpool and Arsenal were usually trading 3rd and 4th places with Arsenal sustaining the bigger title challenge in 2007/2008 than Liverpool's 2008/2009. Alonso wasn't even regarded as one of the top 3 players at Liverpool. That is a fact. Arsenal champions league aside have beaten Liverpool plenty of times down the last few years including Carling Cup League and Fa Cup.

In Alonso's 5 years at Liverpool they finished above Arsenal 3 times and also won the Champions League. As you called the side 'The Mighty Liverpool' with heavy sarcasm I'm merely calling you out as they outperformed Arsenal in that period. It's clear how important he was to Liverpool in that' date=' since he has left, their performances have greatly tailed off. We can't compare players on this point anyway as until guys like Reina, Gerrard and Torres leave we'll have no idea of their actual influence. My guess is that only Reina would be missed more (football-wise). Individual matches do not influence ratings, as you full well know, so I have no idea as to why you keep including them in your argument.

Fabregas made the PFA team of the year twice while Alonso never got in it. Fabregas also won a PFA young player. Alonso also never won a player of the month award while Fabregas had it twice.

Whilst Fabregas does have more individual accolades (probably due to his position and age), SM take team achievements much more seriously and Alonso has more winners medals than Fabregas and they're more recent too.

How is it irrelevent? If you are comparing their positions in the National Team with Alonso 'keeping Fabregas out' then you have to compare their goals et al for their clubs. That's why i made the comment. Poor point. You can't have it both ways.

I never said that Alonso kept Fabregas out of the Spanish side. That's Xavi and Iniesta's job ;) It's irrelevant in the same way that' date=' judging by stats, Carrick is a better player than Essien... The 2 play different games and therefore, their stats aren't comparable.

The point being was Alonso a regular NT player at Fabregas' age of 23? Nice exagerated point however. Nice to see you ignored my Juan Sebastian Veron-Cambiasso remark.

Does it really matter when a player becomes an international? It shouldn't make any difference to their ratings as players are rated on achievement, ability and form; not age. Casillas became an international at 19, Cesar at 25. Should the former always be rated higher having achieved more at a younger age? I didn't ignore your remark at all. I said it was far-fetched. Ability wise Fabregas is similar to Cambiasso but Alonso is light-years ahead of Veron. Refer back to my previous response to read the actual statement.

Using that one game implies that Fabregas made a bigger impression than Alonso. That one assist by Fabregas was bigger than anything Alonso did all game. Why couldn't Alonso do anything despite playing the whole game? Busquets is the primary DM not Alonso so using the DM excuse is pointless.

They play different roles! You're comparing an attacking midfielder with a defensive one. It's not pointless at all saying he's a DM. Look at City. De Jong is a defensive midfielder so does that mean Barry automatically isn't?! Read this article on the latter stages of the WC final and it's obvious that Fabregas is in a more advanced role; in fact it's very obvious from one picture where he's ahead of Iniesta.

When has Alonso ever controlled a game like Fabregas today against Chelsea? AC Milan away? Real Madrid away? I could go on but i know there is no hope of you being able to name an enormous game where Alonso has grabbed his team by the scruff of the neck and led by example like Fabregas. Alonso is a fantastic player but Fabregas is better as emplified by the fact he won awards Alonso did not while they were both in the premiership. Surely a good basis for an argument as both players had an equal footing with Fabregas obviously standing out.

When has Essien ever done that? Or De Rossi? Or Cambiasso? Or any other defensive midfielder? Whilst both were in the Premier League Fabregas didn't win a thing with Arsenal whilst Alonso got an FA Cup' date=' Charity Shield, Champions League and Super Cup and a better overall Premier League position. It's very easy for Fabregas to pick up individual accolades in a more advanced role (check how many WPOTYs have been keepers/defenders). Alonso's job isn't as noticeable but he's excellent at it. The fact that he is occasionally noticed for his half-way line efforts or 60 yard passes show he is truly exceptional.

This thread wouldn't even exist if this were last year because it would get laughed at. But now Fabregas has suffered injuries its easy to point the finger. It's like saying Van Der Vaart is better than Fabregas on the basis that he's on better form. Fickle. Similar to the Rooney as good as Messi or something along those lines comments.

That's rubbish. Alonso has been at the top of his game for years. Fabregas just has a lot of fan-boys as he's young. It's not comparing an out of form player with an in form player at all. At least I haven't. I haven't even mentioned this season which has been among Xabi's best and Cesc's worse.

Anyone would take an on form Fabregas over an on form Alonso.

Given how common good AMs are, I would much rather an in form Alonso.

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Re: Alonso and Fabregas

Your such an idiot... The comment he posted is true. Anyone who watches football would agree with what rooney said.

Just seems like your looking for pointless arguments. Maybe you can give a define answer as to why you think Cesc is so bad?

suck on my sweaty ballsack

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Re: Alonso and Fabregas

Fabregas does deserve a 95' date=' I'm not arguing with that, but the point many people are trying to get to is that [b']Alonso has the right to be higher rated because he plays for the national team[/b]. Fabregas will get it eventually, but I don't think he should get the 96 until he plays for the national team. Alonso should and deserves to be on the same rating.

So why isn't Veron rated higher than Cambiasso?

Why isn't Valbuena rated higher than Nasri?

That one point hardly defines if one player should be rated higher than another. Again. Different positions!

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Re: Alonso and Fabregas

Sorry I don't swing that way. Good of you to admit it though :)

You still need to explain to us why Fabregas is 'over-rated' in your words

Definitions of overrated on the Web:

Given an undue amount of credit for quality or merit in a field; not necessarily related to popularity

overrating - overestimate: a calculation that results in an estimate that is too high

hope this helped

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Re: Alonso and Fabregas

Your such an idiot... The comment he posted is true. Anyone who watches football would agree with what rooney said.

Just seems like your looking for pointless arguments. Maybe you can give a define answer as to why you think Cesc is so bad?

He argues with everybody ignore him

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