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Forwards of the premier league.


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Re: Forwards of the premier league.

How pedantic do you want to be?! :rolleyes: As well as helping players rise this criteria will obviously assist in some players staying' date=' especially those where their is argument for a drop. I don't get the argumentative tone for the sake of it sometimes.

And yet again I'm not saying that's ALL he needs, stop taking what I say out of context. :rolleyes:[/quote']

Just saying :/ Not trying to make arguments. :)

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There seem to be no in form big name forwards other than tevez right now. yes i know carrol, berbatov etc are in form but we don't actually expect these players to get 95+ or even close to it for the

Re: Forwards of the premier league.

Re: Forwards of the premier league. I think the next changes will come too soon for any of the top 3 to drop, especially seen Rooney and Torres fell in the previous changes, so those two dropping aga

Re: Forwards of the premier league.

innit man. king kenny could sign suarez to partner torres

Lol yes, buy a Fwd off form while your own team sucks too. No offence but I don't think Suarez will be any good if he joins Liverpool. If he's in form he can win a match without the other 10 guys on the field, but before he can do that again he'll need his team to get him in form and I don't see that happen with Liverpool.

But well that's my opinion ;)

Current best players are Tevez 'n RvP. And maybe Dzeko, but not seen enough to form a decent opinion.

Torres should leave to get his form back.

Drogba needs to find his own ego again, imo he doesn't believe in himself which really hurts his game (obvious).

Rooney isn't scoring much, but playing pretty good I guess. If I was Sir Alex I'd have my midfield do more so Rooney won't have to back down all the time but well United are #1 in the league so not doing bad.

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Re: Forwards of the premier league.

I can't even remember that' date=' when was it? :P

[/quote']

i think it was in the UCL. i just remember it was awesome ;)

and i agree with you in that drogba is the easiest target for a drop.

i dont think he should though, only a few bad games and he was injured / ill for part of them.

i think it would be harsh for him to drop.

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Re: Forwards of the premier league.

today as well, but for the past few games i think rooney obviously hasn't scored but his passing and touch has been good.

world cup it wasn't and i got slated when i said this in person to people but i think what can save him drop a drop is the fact he is still playing ok.

things arent going his way but he is not as bad as people are making out i think.

for the past 6 games or so his passing has been one of the best on the team i think.

he seems to be playing in the deeper role that he had before last season when he was on fire.

almost as if he has taken a step back a season ;)

soon we might all be saying for he needs to stop his midfield play and get in the box more !

and torres like i said has moments of brillaince: all of the players i mentioned in this thread still show they are just off form. still have the ability.

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Re: Forwards of the premier league.

today as well' date=' but for the past few games i think rooney obviously hasn't scored but his passing and touch has been good.

world cup it wasn't and i got slated when i said this in person to people but i think what can save him drop a drop is the fact he is still playing ok.

things arent going his way but he is not as bad as people are making out i think.

for the past 6 games or so his passing has been one of the best on the team i think.

he seems to be playing in the deeper role that he had before last season when he was on fire.

almost as if he has taken a step back a season ;)

soon we might all be saying for he needs to stop his midfield play and get in the box more !

and torres like i said has moments of brillaince: all of the players i mentioned in this thread still show they are just off form. still have the ability.[/quote']

Rooney certainly had a good game today (albeit against a poor Birmingham) so I see where you're coming from, if he carries on in this vain all he'll be missing is the goals. Long way to go yet but today certainly instils slightly more faith.

Torres is amongst the goals again today also so that's 9 this season in the league, which isn't really that bad tbh, his over-all form could still be questioned but maybe the goal tally will save him as he has a handy knack for getting goals, despite how he is playing on the whole.

Maybe with the new year the long journey down the road to redemption has begun...

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Re: Forwards of the premier league.

Did anyone else see the stats on MOTD for Drog' date=' Rooney and Bent? They all had 82 league goals in the same amount of time, Bent had about 8 more games.

Amazing to think International football and Champions league makes a 6/5 rating difference.[/quote']

Yeah I heard that when the deal went through, it's quite a big difference, even if you put aside the extra Drogba and Rooney provide to a team and as you said football off these shores :eek: I'd also suggest trophies too as an important factor.

Not for one moment suggesting Bent deserves a rise, I just expected better stats from Rooney and especially Drogba (Rooney's lack of scoring is rarely a topic many shy away from :P)

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Re: Forwards of the premier league.

Did anyone else see the stats on MOTD for Drog' date=' Rooney and Bent? They all had 82 league goals in the same amount of time, Bent had about 8 more games.

Amazing to think International football and Champions league makes a 6/5 rating difference.[/quote']

hmm.

the reason i can say to that why rooney etc are more valuable than bent is this:

you want a player who can step it up in the UCL. you want the player who with one moment of magic win you the european cups.

bent is good on domestic form, but i think he would be out of his depth if he really had to step it up against the worlds best.

hes a great player, but the ability to step it up on the biggest stage is what moves you from 25 million to 30.

and on the game 6 ratings difference ?

yeah it sounds a lot but i reckon in the actual match engine it seems like nothing.

i regularly see 88's in rubbish teams, with unchanged stadard tactics from the day they took over outscore the rooney, messi and ronaldo's of my setup.

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Re: Forwards of the premier league.

hmm.

the reason i can say to that why rooney etc are more valuable than bent is this:

you want a player who can step it up in the UCL. you want the player who with one moment of magic win you the european cups.

bent is good on domestic form' date=' but i think he would be out of his depth if he really had to step it up against the worlds best.

hes a great player, but the ability to step it up on the biggest stage is what moves you from 25 million to 30.

and on the game 6 ratings difference ?

yeah it sounds a lot but i reckon in the actual match engine it seems like nothing.

i regularly see 88's in rubbish teams, with unchanged stadard tactics from the day they took over outscore the rooney, messi and ronaldo's of my setup.[/quote']

True, but Bents never had a chance in Europe, and doesnt get a run in the England team (Capello should change this and give him a try)

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Re: Forwards of the premier league.

True' date=' but Bents never had a chance in Europe, and doesnt get a run in the England team (Capello should change this and give him a try)[/quote']

he had 1 /2 games if i remember, and didnt do very well.

the problem with that is if you can't have a direct impact ( which is hard to do so suddenly in a new team) you will never get given a chance.

him and baines never really got trials for england, they were thrown in the last minute and judged on that.

hopefully capello will use upcoming matches to test them out on a better basis.

and bent hasn't had a chance in europe. hmm i dont ever see that changing. spurs werent in UCL when he was there and at aston villa he will be happy to stay in the premlier flight.

funny how every villa fans hopes for a whole team and season are pinning onto one player.

lets see how he deals with the pressure / it pans out :)

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Re: Forwards of the premier league.

This season we won't be just content for staying in the epl and nor are we suddenly pinning our hopes on one player we have lacked a natural born goal scorer since dwight yorke.

He will definately play in the Europa cup in his time with us. This season is down to a number of influences that all occured at once.

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Re: Forwards of the premier league.

This season we won't be just content for staying in the epl and nor are we suddenly pinning our hopes on one player we have lacked a natural born goal scorer since dwight yorke.

He will definately play in the Europa cup in his time with us. This season is down to a number of influences that all occured at once.

no, i know villa used to be a quality team.

im laughing at how they invest now but when o'neil asked for it he got nothing.

i reckon they thought let him leave, somebody else can match his job.

(ohhh shizzz we are going to get relegated ) so inject money.

really they should have let o'neil have his money and who knows, maybe instead of 6th they could have finished 5th or something.

better then it is now anyway.

im not too knowledgeable on villa despite living 20 mins away so i dont know ifyou want to correct me at any point there :)

and yeah i expect him to play in the europa league if you get back to the form you had last year. villa are too big to be in the bottom half in my eyes !

champions league i doubt it. but europa league definately.

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Re: Forwards of the premier league.

Remind me in the coming days to respond to this in detail. Oneill was denied funds and rightly so. Put shortly he wanted full control of the clubs finances but wouldn't accept any responsibility and add that with his mis-management of transfer fees with slot of players it equals a perfect reason to not give him money. I will back this up for you with some stats and facts but I'm on my phone at the moment and it would take a while to write up. :-)

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Re: Forwards of the premier league.

Remind me in the coming days to respond to this in detail.

reminder to educate me ;)

i was actually going to raise another question:

RVP has got something like 6 goals in games ?

he missed a penalty. he hit the bar at ipswich.

he isn't even playing "well" ! ?

i know he is obviously playing well right now, but he could be doing a lot better for himself, i knew he was good but i must admit i was a bit sceptical that he would be as dominant and displace chamkh so easily.

he has done, and done it in style ! im surprised at how good he is.

last season i laughed when wenger said "if RVP was fit for the whole season we would be talking about him and rooney on the same level."

now i feel like a right old fool.

RVP scores in 3 games what rooney may do in an entire season....that is football for you !

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Re: Forwards of the premier league.

That sounds quite interesting regarding O'Neill and has certainly shone a new light on this issue for me personally, didn't know any of that...

Van Persie has always been a great player but injury has always prevented him from realising his true quality I've felt. He's been good recently, he's been better in the past and it certainly doesn't surprise me what we are currently seeing. With him though it's 'cue injury' and back to square one, lets hope he stays injury free.

Atm he is obviously far past Rooney's current level but if Rooney gets it together and performs like we all know he can well I think you won't look like such an 'old fool' in the end! ;)

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Re: Forwards of the premier league.

Atm he is obviously far past Rooney's current level but if Rooney gets it together and performs like we all know he can well I think you won't look like such an 'old fool' in the end! ;)

ok then. lets place bets. as far as i am concerned drogba and torres are in form now. they had minor dips in form and they can end so suddenly not worth talking about. rooney though, put a timeline before he starts to get a reputable goal tally.

lets say a goal ever 4/5 games considering he is not an out and out goal scorer.

when doyou think rooney will recover, if ever ?

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Re: Forwards of the premier league.

True' date=' but Bents never had a chance in Europe, and doesnt get a run in the England team (Capello should change this and give him a try)[/quote']

Nor has he ever had a team of players who have 'proved their class on a regular basis in one of the major world leagues' (as according to SM's definition of 90+ players) around him to supply him opportunities to score the goals he has. The more you think about it, the more it seems like an oversight by SM.

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Re: Forwards of the premier league.

ok then. lets place bets. as far as i am concerned drogba and torres are in form now. they had minor dips in form and they can end so suddenly not worth talking about. rooney though' date=' put a timeline before he starts to get a reputable goal tally.

lets say a goal ever 4/5 games considering he is not an out and out goal scorer.

when doyou think rooney will recover, if ever ?[/quote']

Well I think all need to perform for longer before such definite statements :P

However Rooney NEEDS to kick into gear for the Champions League knock-out stages that is for sure if you Utd are to do much and it wouldn't surprise me if he announces his real 'return' with an emphatic performance within that comp ;)

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Re: Forwards of the premier league.

reminder to educate me ;)

Before i go on to say all the negatives of Oneill and why i think he was rightly refused money. I have to say i have great respect for what he did to our club' date=' he turned things around but it was unsustainable.

Id also like to mention that i will be using a few points made by Johnny C... because he makes those points very well :o

O'NEILL

I will never understand these managers in this day-in-age who want control of all things futbol-related at a club, but take ZERO responsibility when it comes to anything fiscally related at the club.

Any capable modern-day manager should be fully aware that the two are as intertwined as they get. If they aren't capable of recognizing that fact then they shouldn't be managing a futbol team, let alone a futbol club's Transfer Market strategy. They should be a good assistant manager and nothing more.

The value of the vast majority of futbol clubs is generated through the Profit & Loss statements generated at the end of every Transfer Market. Considering that managers who are tasked with handling the transfer market as well as those who are involved in player contracts, control the girth of the P&L statement, the reasons behind decisions like O'Neill's make no sense...

His navigation of the Transfer Market waters were suspect at best. From a purely investment standpoint, he is lucky he's a futbol manager and not a Wall Street trader, because his keister would have been kicked to the curb looooong ago.

He basically told the world that he can manage a team and get results in only one sort of environment..... one where the chequebook is always open. Big deal. Guys like that are a dime a dozen. "Hey look how great I am... I am making money in a Bull Market." :rolleyes: So what... That doesn't automatically make anyone a good manager of anything (stocks, bonds, people, futbol, etc...). It's the managers that can navigate all types of waters (think POTC's Captain Barbossa) who are the REAL studs.

Thankfully for O'Neill, he falls into that Hughes-camp. He has proven that he has an extremely strong skill-set at getting a scrappy team to consistently punch above their weight.... So like Hughes the guy will never be on the sidelines for too long.

However, the curious thing to me about his decision is that by essentially saying that he only wants to manage a team where the oh-so-bothersome P&L statement doesn't enter into the equation, he is marketing himself as a manager which has gone the way of the dinosaur.

He is essentially saying that he's unwilling to deal with any real financial aspects.

Unfortunately for him there are only 2 such clubs in the UK which fit that criteria... Chelsea and City.

For a stubborn guy who could never be bothered to look beyond the UK's shores to recruit futbol talent, let alone a guy who never looked off the shores for a job, this poses a bit of a problem going forward...

Every single thing above is true, Oneill spent over 130 million pound on players over the space of 3 seasons. A fantastic budget to be given for any manager, out of all his transfers who could we make money on ? Milner, yes we did. Who else ? Young ? potentially but it would have to be a bid over 10 million to break even.

He over paid for every single player and i think Lerner recognized this eventually. He not only over paid for players that worked out, he over paid for very poor players. Straying of topic a little but he even sold Gary Cahill :mad::mad: for 4 million :confused:

The worst thing was he continued to stick with the same 11 each week even though he spent all this money and continued to bemoan the size and strength of our squad. He was spending good money on players yet not even using them ?

On top of his inability to buy outside Britain and pay fair prices, he didnt take any control over wages being paid to players. Our wage budget rocketed under Oneill and under our last season with him we lost 40 million pounds through wages and we had / have a wage bill thats £10m more than CL spurs and £20m more than everton who've finished above us twice in recent years, not to mention they've got players on £30k plus a week who barely play (luke young, sidwell etc).

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Re: Forwards of the premier league.

@adam hmm.

i guess milner and barry do kind of hide o'neils poor finances.

big signings / sells like that can do a lot to hide your poorer deals.

130 million jesus ! thats ridiculous. truely man city like.

that is a joke, worst part is who did he buy with that ?

i can say where city spent the money but i didn't follow football as closely before, and tbh i cannot see right now how he spent that much. no players there are worth more than 6 million. so yeah he did overpay.

to sum it up its a shame the guy had no sense of finances, as ferguson and wenger do, they always try to get the best for the club and don't buy if they think the other club are taking the mick. eg suarez 30 million euro's ? yeah right.B)

he was a great manager, but 130 million is a joke. shame. he could have been one of the worlds best.

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Re: Forwards of the premier league.

Very interesting and eye opening re: O'Neill. Usually he's built up as this great manager with no real mention of these negative aspects to his management, it's very critical.

I had no idea on the figures and like #rooneyisyummy# (seriously that's an embarassing name to write :P) I struggle to think of where all this money has been spent. Can anyone further enlighten me on the finances/ and on whom. If that's a bit too arduous any decent online sources? Ta.

P.S. I'd be seriously gutted as a Villa fan about Cahill too, often think that but I can provide solace! You didn't let Pique go for next to nothing :rolleyes::P:o

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Re: Forwards of the premier league.

Ahh ill have a look around as his previous transfer record was posted a couple of times on the Villa thread when he left. It certainly is important to know all sides and aspects of a manager, quite simply i cant see him working in English football again unless promised x amount of fee's each season.

Thing is about Cahill, he is a academy graduate, a legend almost at Villa for scoring a scissor kick past Blues. I was devastated when we let him go :(

Anyway here is the break down by Elliot of transfers. He didnt provide sources but he is thorough enough to ensure these are accurate.

If your not convinced' date=' look below at our main transfer dealings with MON;

06/07

BOUGHT: £6.5m on Petrov.

£10m on Young.

£1m on Maloney.

SOLD: Peter Whittingham for 250k, what's he worth now?

Kevin Phillips for 700k.

Juan Pablo Angel released.

07/08

BOUGHT: 1.5m on Wayne Routledge

£1m on Moustapha Salifou

£3.5m on Zat Knight

£5m on Marlon Harewood

£8.5m on Reo Coker

£2m spent on loan signing Scott Carson!!!!! Ridiculous...

SOLD: Gary Cahill for only £5m :eek:

Liam Ridgewell for £2m

Jlloyd Samuel FREE

Steven Davis for £4m

Aaron Hughes for just £1m!!!

Gavin McCann for £1m

08/09

BOUGHT: £10m on Curtis Davies

£5.5m on Steve Sidwell

£2.5m on Brad Friedel

£2m on Brad Guzan

£4m on Nicky Shorey

£5m on Luke Young

£8m on Carlos Cuellar

£12m on James Milner

£3.5m on Emile Heskey

SOLD: Luke Moore for £3m

Shaun Maloney for £1m

Thomas Sorensen released

09/10

BOUGHT: £2.5m on Habib Beye

£8m on Fabian Delph

£8m on Stephen Warnock

£5m on James Collins :rolleyes:

£6m on Richard Dunne

£12m on Stewart Downing!!! kind of signing was that?

SOLD: Gareth Barry for £12m

Zat Knight for £4m

That's £133m spent on players.

Randy Lerner gets 34m in return.

Good business?

Good riddance.[/quote']

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Re: Forwards of the premier league.

Very interesting and eye opening re: O'Neill. Usually he's built up as this great manager with no real mention of these negative aspects to his management' date=' it's very critical.

I had no idea on the figures and like #rooneyisyummy# (seriously that's an embarassing name to write :P) I struggle to think of where all this money has been spent. Can anyone further enlighten me on the finances/ and on whom. If that's a bit too arduous any decent online sources? Ta.

P.S. I'd be seriously gutted as a Villa fan about Cahill too, often think that but I can provide solace! You didn't let Pique go for next to nothing :rolleyes::P:o[/quote']

tbf carew was good last season i thought, agbonlaugh was too. people were calling for him to be 90 and young 91.

he certainly got the best out of his players. cuellar was ace too. he got players who have flopped this season to play so well/ it proves they are quality when used properly.

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Re: Forwards of the premier league.

Thank you very much for that list, very informative and it's really very shocking reading. I was a bit sceptical but when you see the price tags any criticism is justifiable. The fact he dealt almost exclusively within the British shores, where prices are already inflated has really done the damage.

I've been talking to an American friend about the Bent transfer trying to explain how English talent is inflated compared to our foreign counter-parts and this provides excellent evidence for that point! Reo-Coker over 8mil :eek: Delph and Warnock even looks excessive. Cuellar, Marlon :D those stand out for me. EDIT:AND Curtis, how did I miss that one!

Hughes, Ridgewell, Whittingham have increased dramatically in value and what about Gardner who's not on the list? That was another Martin sale wasn't it?

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Re: Forwards of the premier league.

Yeah it was, thats just the main transfers he also brought in people such as Chris Sutton ( Arbeit very short term and free but a waste in wages ) !

Bents not that bad, its expensive but he is a proven prem goal scorer. Same amount of prem goals as rooney in last 5 years and only behind drogba overall in last 5 seasons. by 1 goal too :)

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