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SM Dev (John)

Squad Sizes

Squad Sizes  

1 member has voted

  1. 1.

    • No
      232
    • Capped at 50
      202
    • Capped at 100
      123
    • Capped at 150
      18
    • Capped at 200
      32


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Guest MR_ENG_CHAMP_1

Re: Squad Sizes

yer most of my team is made up of 70s players which their wages are nothing

10-15 of 70 rated players equal one 85+ old player in wages

i am very against this cap.

Why dont we also cap how much teams can spend each year and how many players they can sell also

its not america !!!!!!!!!!!!!

have a look at my idea ;)

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Re: Squad Sizes

Im with Teb and Bobo and alot of others on this one, Alot of people play this game just to buy all the top stars old or young as long as they are highly rated. were as other managers like Teb,Fraser,Bobo,Nav,Perry,Me etc etc love the other side of buying up loads of players they think will get a rating jump and look forward alot to the rating changes because of this.

If its more because of the tech side and speeding up the site then im all for it if theres no other way around it, but could always pull a certain amount out at a time like say 60, then have page 2,3 etc etc. yes this is a pain for managers looking at there team but that could be there restriction for having a massive squad, but with the youth thing now the pages would be less anyway. but at least from the database and site side of things it should not slow it up.

If its because its unrealistic then i think something should also be done to the people who buy all the star players and hog them all up as this would definatly never happen in real life. people have players like Ronaldinho,Henry,Etoo,Gerrard,Xavi,Ronaldo,Terry,Lampard,Essien,Alonso,Kaka. all playing for 1 team then half the time they have to drop some (which they would not be happy with IRL ) but they also have players like Messi,Iniesta,Sissoko,Fabrigas, Van perise either out on loan or just in the squad not being used at all.

For me the above is more hogging and being greedy and totaly unrealsitc more than anything else. with the 70's at least theres thousands of them to go around.

The main people who ruin clubs which has been mentioned are the guys who buy all the old high rated players hoping for success, but in a couple of seasons this backfires badly in most cases.

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Re: Squad Sizes

*back from footie - a.k.a. back to arguing

B) !*

Firstly, Ryan, this thread is about the squad sizes (see title) and has developed very well, so if you have idea's which are not related with the squad size make another whole thread - possibly the first decent one you've made in your forum career... :rolleyes:

Bobo - SM only has on its db players who have broken into the first team of clubs. We only have 175 players on the db who are under 18 so I don't see how your point is valid regarding U16's etc?

In real life you don't get one big club buying all the hot prospects available, but thats mainly due to one reason - that they are challenged from other clubs. In SM I think it should be the same. If a manager say wants 80 of those 175 players (as he probably knows most should increase eventually as as you said, they are only added when they are capped by their team, or at least make the bench) I really cannot see what the problem of him getting them is unless it's done unfairly. If done correctly, and he gets them all, surely there is no problem, because it's an obvious sign that no one else wanted the particular players. Why he should be tied down to having a MAXIMUM of 80 youth players (let's say 50 in the youth squad and 30 in the first team - with the other 20 being players who will get the club somewhere in the sort term) is a complete mystery in my eyes... apparently in Steve's as well...

To be honest, I wouldn't mind the idea of having a limit on first team's of say 50 but with no limit on youth squads, but again, some youth players will then be taking up the space in the first team because of their ages (due to the age limit of 21), a prime example being youngster Federici, who cannot be placed into the youth squad.

Suggestions to improve this (mentioned before in this same thread but no one has apparently taken notice of them :P ):

1) Club depth depends on manager reputation - New manager can have maximum of 80 players, manager playing for 4 months or less 100 players, rest how many they want (figures invented)

2) Limit just on senior squads, not on youth squads...

3) No limit at all :D (easiest and possibly best way around)

4) ''So, if the concern is over club's being pulled into debt, perhaps SM should introduce something that means players are available at value cost should a club fall X amount into debt, say:

1st Div - £5m

2nd Div - £3m

3rd Div - £2m

4th Div - £1m

This would leave the transfer choices in the managers hands but would force them to keep a tight rein on their finances, or they risk having their best players bought out from under them to prevent bankruptcy. Their situation could be announced in the newspaper for instance. I think this is more realistic and playable. '' (Quoted from Teb)

PLUS OTHERS... Add as you wish...

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Re: Squad Sizes

Sorry Bobo but Im at a complete loss to the first part of your post? Dont get the 175 players business and people getting 30 of them etc?????

The club depth cant be based on reputation simply because if a manger with a high rep (100) took over a club and managed them for a while and had a limit of 150 players and filed it and then left. The next manager may have only a rep of 40 and therefore not be able to buy players just sell.

At the end of the day a cap of 100 players is pretty ridiculous anyway! 100!!

We need a cap and if people dont want 100, well where do we draw the line 150 players at 1 club? 200?

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Re: Squad Sizes

Sorry Bobo but Im at a complete loss to the first part of your post? Dont get the 175 players business and people getting 30 of them etc?????

What I meant is' date=' that IF there is this limit, as most people like scouting (at least most I know from this forum) they will deffo fill their youth squad (50 players) and will probably also buy another 30 and keep them in their first team AS THEY CANNOT KEEP THEM IN THEIR YOUTH SQUAD DUE TO THE LIMIT. Like that 20 places are left, which NEED to be used by decent impact players (first teamers) and the other 9 for the subs and a little depth, although 20 is not a big squad at all. But that's it, 80 players, yet as you mentioned, there are at least 175 players just under the age of 18, let alone all youths. My question is why should a manager be 'forced' to have a maximum of 80 youth players (at most) when there are at least... 1000 future prospects around (Aged between 15 and 23)??

The club depth cant be based on reputation simply because if a manger with a high rep (100) took over a club and managed them for a while and had a limit of 150 players and filed it and then left. The next manager may have only a rep of 40 and therefore not be able to buy players just sell.

Never thought of that, but hey presto, change it like so:

A manager does 0-3 months with a team - maximum 80 players

4-7 months with a team - maximum 125 players

Any more than that how many you want :)

Surely 8 months+ is more than enough to almost guarantee that a manager has his heart for the club, but then again, as mentioned earlier by one of the people who disagree (not sure who), I'm quite sure not more than 100 people have bigger squads than 100 players tbh, so I don't see where the 'cheating' or 'hogging' is coming from, which was apparently the main reason for this idea :confused:

To be honest, I think the best way to settle this is by a poll, but as Teb mentioned way earlier it's good to see it hasn't been set in stone yet, but is here to be discussed..

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Re: Squad Sizes

IF we want SM to be as real as possible you cannot put up a squad limit.

Firstsly clubs in real life dont have 50 plus senior players i agree put then do have a reserve team and senior and youth. So in sm's case the reserve and senior team are all in the jsut one Senior squad' date=' maybe should put a reserve squad.

Now about the number of youth i feel that should stay unlimited, as clubs in real life have 100's of youth players. Think about a big team like Ac Milan, has youth team in Italy consisting of 6-8 divisions in the youth league and possibly more. Then that is just in Italy. Ac Milan youth academy is established all over the world in Australia, Europe and many other continents

so it we want to make this game as real as possible the youth number of players cannot have a cap.

Also i have smers complaining the this player is hogging talent and etc. It is fair for that person to have the talent as he has bothered to scout and find bargains and rising stars. E.g Arse Wegner he finds youth and seems to beat other managers to the young scarlets and the FA dont put a cap on that and manay managers complain he hogs youth but he is the one who is scouting and putting the time to get them.[/quote']

IDEA OF A COMPREMISE PEOLPE, DONT WORRY CHRIS IS HERE!! The problem of hogging is realy ionly the best 90+ players who are 1st teamers. So to limit 'hogging' klimit the team to 30-40 24 and overs but so u can invest in youngens have unlimited Youth squadunder 23s but tio get in the under 23s u have to be 90 and below lets say, wot u think ???

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Re: Squad Sizes

If this is being done just for realism alone then I think we also need to change the amount of massive stars 1 team can posess as thats the most unrealistic thing on SM atm probably.

Many teams have loads of youngsters and prospects etc, maybe not 100 but no team in real life owns all the best players and most the best 90+ players coming through with most never getting any matches.

I think there should be a vote as Bobo said because surely if a poll is very 1 sided (either way) then that should be taken well into consideration.

... whilst typing all this tho i checked my teams which i thought had over the limit but im actually nearly 40 players under it. so the limit wouldnt affect me much tbh because i doubt i will ever reach the 100 mark

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Re: Squad Sizes

Same with me to be honest, am nowhere near the limit on most of my teams, but I like to have the choice of having a vast squad... i have done in the past and I would like to again if need be.

John, you stated we need a cap again. Is this in reference to the technical side of things? As Neller said I am sure there is a way around this, which (despite my limited technical knowledge) must be true or how would the clubs with huge squads currently exist in the game.

If it has to be capped put it at a level most managers will never get anywhere near - say 200 - but that SM can still presumably handle about 1% of its members having.

What do you think of the other solutions people have offered? I agree (no offense Bobo) that limiting based on rep or time at club might not be great as it still leaves clubs at risk, but maybe something could be implemented to make unmanageable clubs more interested in unmanaged teams with 100+ players than in the average team, meaning that players sell more easily and helping anyone who finds they inherit and unwanted large squad. Or, as has been mentioned, do a bankruptcy cap instead (my favourite idea... because err... I thought of it :D )

A few people have said 'yeah great' on this thread initially but I haven't actually seen any solid reasons for why this is a good step for SM besides potential technical issues. It isn't realistic, leaving it harms at best a few managers hypothetically in future, and changing it will annoy many existing managers.

I would prefer to see SM improving things like unrealistic squads of dozens of world superstars that have blatantly been formed from cheating, by tracking activity between same clubs more etc, then tampering with something that really doesnt seem a problem.

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Re: Squad Sizes

Squad sizes are getting out of a hand. Some squads have over 100 players in the squad which is just hogging players and plunging clubs into debt. People complain about wages but what club in real life could survive with over a 100 players on the books?

I have just looked at a club with 56 players in 1st team' date=' 56 in youth and 4 out on loan, a total of 116 players!!!

No club in real life would have a squad size larger than 50 at most.

We will be introducing a cap on squad size of 50 in 1st team and 50 in the youth squad, a maximum of 100. This number will then be reviewed (and likely decreased) in the near future.

This will not mean people will lose any players but they will not be able to sign any new players until their squads have been reduced.[/quote']

Poor Nav and his Juvé nav ull have to sell me some of them mate lol

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Re: Squad Sizes

I don't see how having such a huge squad can cause technical issues?

Some unavailable to manage squads are huge because of all the 2 for 1 player

exchange deals the club gets, ie eng champs.

Wether teams have 100 + players or not they are still floating around on the

database regardless they are just involved in a setup instead of floating around

in unavailable to manage squads?

Maybe ive misread the point here but I dont see how having big squads can

cause technical issues. The whole idea of this game is simualtion, a lot of

people, like myself and a lot of other forumers take pride in their squads which

they have taken 4-5 seasons to recruit and I would be extremely annoyed if I had

to start releasing and selling some of my players regardless of wether I wanted

to or not.

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Re: Squad Sizes

its not america !!!!!!!!!!!!!

have a look at my idea ;)

i kno but if they are going to cap our limit of playesr

why not cap our wages

cap amount of transfers per season

cap amount of slaes of players per season

and make a cap our spending budget

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Re: Squad Sizes

I propose to have 30in the first team and 20 in the youth team but with a condition that 10 of them must be with maximum age of 24 ( as the second line in any team in real life).

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Re: Squad Sizes

Am assuming the cap is going to happen given that this is officially on the blog:

http://blog.soccermanager.com/squad/squad-sm-squad-sizes.html

Not sure how long it has been there.

Is anyone from SM going to respond to the alternative suggestions and arguments against changing it, or is the pleas of the many many people against the idea going to be ignored? :):rolleyes:

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Re: Squad Sizes

Am assuming the cap is going to happen given that this is officially on the blog:

http://blog.soccermanager.com/squad/squad-sm-squad-sizes.html

Not sure how long it has been there.

Is anyone from SM going to respond to the alternative suggestions and arguments against changing it' date=' or is the pleas of the many many people against the idea going to be ignored? :):rolleyes:[/quote']

Teb

Personally I wouldn't bother. Obviously the consultation then was just for show as clearly it had already been agreed anyway. :(

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Re: Squad Sizes

Great idea, been an advocate of this for ages...

Will ensure that managers have to pick and choose their transfers very carefully, rather than just minesweeping as many clubs seem to do with the young players...

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Re: Squad Sizes

SAY NO TO THE CAP

Most disappointing post i have seen on this Forum,this is like taking candy from babys!!

Got to agree with Teb,Bobo,Hkphooey(I have a 68 squad in GC1 and regularly battle it out with Hkphooey for new talent,and there is always plenty available),Neller,Raz,Harry etc.........

If it is a site slowing issue i would have to agree with a cap but the site speed at the minute is really good and surely if squad sizes affected it we would be experiencing difficulties now.

To take away players squads which many have build over a long time seems to me to be a very drastic action.

I would urge SM to please have a rethink on this one.

Fellow Forumers put the SAY NO TO THE CAP in your sigs.

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Re: Squad Sizes

i've been off the forum for a week or so. like yuri i've missed this but will add my 2 cents worth.

i agree with john and ste gore on the cap issue. to me it's unrealistic for a club to have over 100 players in what is basically a first team and reserve squad. SM doesnt really incorporate youth squads for reasons supplied by john gore. therefore if you're only counting reserve/first teams then 100 is more than ample.

if and it's a big if, any club in real life got anywhere near that for reserve/first team alone then i'm sure UEFA/FIFA would have something to say about it.

i understand that people like to scout and bring in prospects for their team to help raise money in future sales after a rating increase or to be kept for their own team. i like to scout players and bring in youth as well but i've never got anywhere near 100 players.

yes there are new players being added all the time but 90% of them will never climb to the heights that people are looking for to return a good profit etc. i agree that you cant monopolise the entire SM youth movement but a few managers in a setup can gain a monopoly on the cream of the crop. that 10% that a lot of people are after.

why not get your team 15-20 good prospects. then when you sell 1 go and grab yourself another young prospect to replace him. isnt that what a lot of clubs do in real life anyway?

i dont agree with the stockpiling policy of having 80+ youngsters in your squad..

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Re: Squad Sizes

good shout fraser, and effectively what you've said is what happens.

You just get clubs that have an endless amount of young players without any real regard to scouting the player. They are just bought because they are young.

The limit would make people selective about who they buy, and who they exactly need in their squad, rather than scattergunning or minesweeping for talent.

Thus it wouldnt harm the scout at all, would just require them to fine tune their nose for talent.

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Re: Squad Sizes

as i have mentioned before on this thread, realism is not the issue for me. SM does not and probably will never offer a totally realistic experience because it is a game. A real club will not normally have a huge squad, true. That is a side issue.

BUT

1. It could, no cap exists.

2. It has a youth development program in place, improving it's youngsters.

3. It would get a new stadium with sustained success.

4. It would have a scouting system in place.

5. It would have U-16's, u-15'S etc.

6. It would probably have a feeder club.

All these things contribute to the long term success of a club in reality. SM does not, and shouldn't, have most of these in my opinion.

In the absence of these things, some managers have decided whilst playing SM that they wish to generate assets and possibly long term success by having vast squads. This is not realistic, but neither is it against any rules.

Now, SM are proposing a rule change that will stop people having a squad over 100. This would have been fine if implemented when SM was first created, as everyone would have known, and nobody would - or could - have gone over the cap.

So, imagine if you are a manager with a 100+ squad, and the cap was introduced, you would be unable to buy any players at that moment. This is problematic for a number of reasons.

1. One of the most enjoyable things about SM is buying a player

2. You cannot improve your first team squad.

3. Your signing policy is ruined.

How can this be solved?

1. Release players (lose a collective fortune in money you have fairly invested, when considering wages paid and initial fee)

2. Sell players (defies the purpose of buying for the future - the best scouts will have few other managers interested in their players anyway, if many others knew about it they wouldnt be that great a scout by definition - as will be selling for around cost price if lucky as players will be currently low valued and low rated)

Either way, the manager is at a huge disadvantage compared to managers who decided to spend differently, despite having played SM perfectly legitimately. All on the basis that it is more 'realistic' to change it. SM is about combining realism and playability; surely as a game it must be?

The only good thing about capping it IMO is:

1) Technical reasons - I dont believe this is actually a problem, other ways around it, and I expect the technical limit of squad sizes would be way beyond what anyone can actually achieve

2) Prevents bankruptcy - fair point, instead, just stop players from buying if their money falls below X amount, and enforce sale of any player if a bid of above cost is received, this would promote wise spending better anyway and also curtail the twits who ruin clubs by buying tons of old duffers. The people with wage/debt problems are these people, not the ones with huge squads, as the latter are thinking about the future.

3) Stops 'hogging' - this is a total myth and doesn't exist. Players change constantly on SM, and a manager who has built up a huge squad wont be in a position to forever buy new players coming out even if they wanted to. ALWAYS a new undiscovered talent out there, no manager can ever come anywhere NEAR to having them all.

4) More realistic - yes it is, but so is offering player contracts and having scouts and coaches etc, doesn't make it necessary. Could also name a dozen things that would be more important, and necessary changes that SM could make to make SM more realistic that should take precedence over squad size.

So why add it when in light of the all the negatives?! I just really don't understand it. It seems a spontaneous decision going on the original post and the blog article. More potential con's than potential pro's. Harms nobody if left alone.

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Re: Squad Sizes

First of all if this is being done on a technical issue for speed etc,and there is no other way around solving problem then even though i dont like it and dont agree with it ,i will accept it has to be done.

But if its only to do with managers having big squads etc and some going into debt then totally disagree the way your resolving the issue,BEING LOOKED AT WRONG AS FAR AS IM CONCERNED.

It shouldnt be the number of players in a Squad you are capping but the capping of the ammount of high rated players you are allowed.

I would say most massive Squads have a lot of youngsters that they dont play but at the same time they have them because the bulk of teams dont want them to loan or buy.

You Tech lads just take a look at your Free agents list in all your set ups ,why are the bulk sitting there if most want them and cant get them.

Reason why is big part of people playing S/M are not doing it for the enjoyment of this part of game scouting etc ,which is what has got the bulk of some long serving regulars backs up against idea.

Has already stated by most,nothing wrong with having a squad size of 100 or more if bulk are youngsters ,none will play in most teams anyway,

Yes it is wrong if teams have 50 or more over 90 rating etc ,because they are the main players in demand by at lest 90% of S/M members that are only playing game to buy the highest rated players at whatever cost thinking this should by rights win them league all the time,plus getting most of these clubs in debt seems highest paid earners.

So to me even though reading through the lines it already looks as if its been had the offical stamp put on it,i would look at capping how many high rated players a team is allowed first ,so that certain teams that always have money from the off anyway cannot hog all the top stars,

Then the way forward after that is if these top players dont play enough games for there side then you cant just keep slinging new contacts at them that they just accept,instead they refuse and move on to greener pastures as in real life.

Also if its supposed to be the debt the club gets into ,the size of Squad will never matter if you set a cap instead on how much the club can go into debt ,after that the team loses there highest rated player/players until back at limit,after all if you set a limit and cap that as a clubs debt then this unsavoury idea of S/M dosnt need to happen.

We think the worst part of S/M is cheats ,and what do they do and are interested in ,

1.Take over multiple teams in same set up and sell all top players 90 plus into there chosen club.

2.Take over multiple teams in same set up and sell all young prospects into there chosen club.

What would your answer be S/M number 1 or 2 ,i know mine .

So if its not cut and dried ,then if its a tech issue with no way round it will accept,but as for reasons stated above there are far more things you can do for the enjoyment of game before just a quick team capping fix.

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Re: Squad Sizes

steve are you telling me that every youngster that appears is worth buying?

of course he isnt. you and i and most other people know that only about 10% max of the youngsters that appear are worth going for and these players can be hogged on a setup if a few managers have unrealistically large squads.

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Re: Squad Sizes

steve are you telling me that every youngster that appears is worth buying?

of course he isnt. you and i and most other people know that only about 10% max of the youngsters that appear are worth going for and these players can be hogged on a setup if a few managers have unrealistically large squads.

No...not saying that for a minute mate? Clearly not every youngster is worth buying as you rightly say.

But' date=' if someone did try to buy all the ones worth buying, why is that a problem? It is an open market - first come first serve - and credit to him for knowing his stuff more and acting faster, or deciding to invest heavily rather than go for 'now' players. Have they done anything wrong or unfair? We are all playing the game to have the ultimate team.

I would love to buy every player worth having, but it is fiction that this happens anywhere as I have learned from playing. I would say i am on SM more than 99% of people, and i constantly miss out on great potential players and curse my luck daily at being pipped. At the end of the day, money fluctuates differently from one club to the next constantly, as does knowledge from one manager to the next, which is why we can rest assured nobody can [i']ever[/i] have a monopoly on players, or even near.

Even saying 1000 players are added in a year, and 10% are ones worth having and someone manages to somehow beat all other managers to them and buys all of these. They have bought 100 players. For how many seasons could they repeat this feat? One more? If they are lucky two? It just couldnt happen.

If anyone can find me a single instance of a setup where there is a club hogging every player worth having, I will retract my argument and eat my laptop. This does not exist, it will never exist, it can never exist.

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Re: Squad Sizes

i look at it this way. i'm more than happy to have about 15 - 20 youngsters in my squad. if i sell one or use one in part exchange etc then i'll maybe go out and get another. a lot of my teams have a squad of about 40 - 50 players.

i dont see why managers feel the need to buy 80 + youngsters for their team. a bit over the top wouldn't you say?

i do agree that it would have been better that the squad cap was in place to begin with but hindsight is a wonderful thing and i doubt when SM was first created the devs ever thought that squads of over 100 would ever exist..

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