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SM Dev (John)

Squad Sizes

Squad Sizes  

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  1. 1.

    • No
      232
    • Capped at 50
      202
    • Capped at 100
      123
    • Capped at 150
      18
    • Capped at 200
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Re: Squad Sizes

You ARE making sense Neller, and I totally agree.

All we're asking for is for more punishments to the actual ones who are doing this, and not just everyone. So, for example, if as u say some people have over 300 players, which is unreasonable, then only they are punished, and not the other 99.9% of the SM users (just because of 1-10 jerks).:)

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Re: Squad Sizes

One of the things that has made this thread drag on without agreement on both sides is that SM, who at the end of the day are master and commander, will not say outright what is causing the need for this change. First it seemed incredulity at large teams, then it was a technical and realism concern, then it was complaints from players, then back to technical, now back to realism. All of these reasons have been countered, but then the merry cycle begins again...I am way too stubborn to be put off by going in circles John. :)

We could not introduce a cap and then introduce things like 'players fitness has not increased today as the clubs coaches couldn't physically train 150 players on the training ground.' and 'Tim Jones has requested a transfer as he is upset that he is now considered 7th choice RB' and 'Ryan McNab refuses to sign as he believes his oppotunities at a club which has 97 players will be limited.'

(Do the above not sound ridiculous??)

We can introduce this and managers will spend ages scouting players and putting in bids only for them to be rejected.

Yes' date=' but then who asked for these ideas? :confused: People did suggest very poor morale for those not being played, but I believe this was aimed at people who have large amounts of players of high ability in same positions than those with ultra large squads. What about the other suggestions on this thread? Such as if a manager goes into debt of X amount, his players are available as though they were free agents? This will naturally and realistically cap squad sizes; people won't risk losing their best players over having a big squad. I don't recall hearing or thinking of a down side to this. It means if I have a 300 man squad, I can keep it if I can provide for it. If I am in debt when this was put into place, could you really argue? There are always going to be losers with any change in SM, particularly something like this, but the squad cap is way down the list of best options.
Is it not more straight forward to managers to say that you can only have 120 players at a club?
Straight forward, yes. Realistic, fair, best option? No, nay, and nope.
Yes there are many ways to display players on pages and have a squad page split over several pages etc but again this makes the game more complicated to play. Who would want to view a squad and then thumb through pages to see the entire squad?? Who would want to have to goto the squad page before every game and thumb through pages to select the match day 16 then goto the tactics page and pick the team?? And then release they have missed someone out and go back and pick the match day 16 again.
As mentioned' date=' the people who want to have huge squads wouldn't mind this. How can they complain? Even if they found it a deterrent, wouldn't this achieve your objective without imposing the slightly fascist feeling squad cap?
Again when we are seeing these huge squads it is very often people are just buying all the new young free agents that are added in the hope that one of them turns out to be good and his rating increases substantially. This is a very legitimate strategic approach to playing soccermanager, but we want to change this so people think abit more about who they buy and be successful by just picking a handful of free agents.

Free agents are designed to add players into a setup that has already started and the idea is not that a club hoovers them up on the cheap which just doesnt happen in real life.

Of course, people doing this is a rubbish part of SM. Agreed, it needs changing. Don't agree that a squad cap is best way of doing it.... If you want to encourage people to buy more selectively, don't impose something that will limit who many they can buy... introduce something that encourages selection/discourages minesweeping. For instance (off top of my head) new players values are double for 20 turns, or don't reveal new players on a list for the whole site to see, as people surely just run down this list and hoover them up as you said. What is the point in the New Players list? Anyone interested in getting someone they asked to be added will be searching the player name... no need for the list.
Claiming clubs in real life have massive squads is not true. Yes they have youth academies etc but in soccermanager we just deal with players that have 'made-it' and do not include academy players and so comparing the real Liverpool with its academies etc and the soccermanager Liverpool is not a fair comparison.
Why is it not a fair comparison? You can be the club in the game. But anyway, I take your point. However, the point people have always been trying to make when mentioning real life is that clubs in real life have other means of securing a long term flow of quality players into their club. Don't want or expect SM to introduce myriad bizarre player acquisition features, I do expect them to implement a realistic way of stopping something that we all agree is a problem.

Having small squads is realistic. Having a cap is not. SM need to look at the difference and work on methods that players won't even notice that encourage them to have feasible squad sizes, rather than impose barriers that players will stumble and bang into when playing the game. Surely that is better for all concerned?

I also do not understand why someone emailing SM to complain about their slow speed (due to having 350 players) is not told politely (like a cheat saying why is my deal not allowed through) that they are not playing in the spirit of the game - and should expect unrealistic speeds if having unrealistic squad sizes, or told (like a cheat damaging a club by fielding players out of place) that they are now out of a job for mismanagement, but thanks for highlighting it Mr Cheat.

Even if we bring this round to a technical issue again, which I fail to believe can be that pressing as has been mentioned by others, the answer is not to slap a feature on that is going to prevent buying. You say you are not forcing sales on people, but when it is sell up or never buy again, you are forcing people. The answer is still to subtly implement features that will gradually lower squad sizes, rather than encourage mass exoduses of players.

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Re: Squad Sizes

We will be introducing a cap on squad size of 50 in 1st team and 50 in the youth squad' date=' a maximum of 100. This number will then be reviewed (and likely decreased) in the near future.[/quote']

Clearly this cap was stated as going to be 100 players and likely to decrease. Fairly plain and simple. To be honest, not that bothered as there are plenty of other players to make money on. Just wonder how many others got caught out.

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Re: Squad Sizes

I seem to be spending more time debating on this thread than actually implementing any code or making any improvements.

Teb you end your post by stating that instead of a straight forward cap we should

SM need to look at the difference and work on methods that players won't even notice that encourage them to have feasible squad sizes

and

The answer is still to subtly implement features that will gradually lower squad sizes, rather than encourage mass exoduses of players.

So in this case we should apply the suggestions that I mentioned

introduce things like 'players fitness has not increased today as the clubs coaches couldn't physically train 150 players on the training ground.' and 'Tim Jones has requested a transfer as he is upset that he is now considered 7th choice RB' and 'Ryan McNab refuses to sign as he believes his oppotunities at a club which has 97 players will be limited.'

I find this extremely bizairre that you would rather have your squad hit by a plague of messages, problems, bad morale etc all instead of not having a cap of 120 players which most reasonable managers never even reach!

We gave warning back in March that we would be introducing this cap, at then stated 100 limit. We have since decided to be even more lenient and raised it by another 20 players!! Basically another squad size!!

A cap of 120 is reasonable, fair, realistic and a straight way of doing things.

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Re: Squad Sizes

John, that is not the order my argument went in.

You will recall I mentioned that those suggestions are not wanted nor asked for in regards to the problem at hand. I then mentioned a few other solutions and would prefer comments on ideas I suggest are good than those I agree are not applicable here. I don't recall suggesting anything that would cause any club messages. :)

Your warning in March was met with furor, your warning now is. I find it bizarre that SM are so set on this idea?

1, 10, 100, 120 or 300 is not fair or reasonable to anyone with squads over those sizes.

How long will it take for people with 200+ squads to be able to play the game normally again once this is imposed?

Are SM pm'ing every manager in advance to warn them of the change, or assuming the forum accounts for the whole SM population? I didn't receive mine. :rolleyes::) That does not seem fair.

I would be less than amused if this change suddenly struck me (if I had 120+ squads,which I don't), and it should have been done from the start or not at all. Now it is just going to needlessly annoy too many people.

It is also not realistic, please tell me any squad with a cap in reality. Clearly SM want to convey a show of realism, but there are better long term ways of bringing about more true to life squad sizes than slapping a cap in. It is not realistic for a manager to have to release 100 players, nor fair as he will have invested millions.

Why are the ideas I suggested not superior to this? I agree smaller squads would be better, the point so many of us keep making though is that this is not the way to bring it about. If you want this game to be a better simulation, features need to be added that simulate real life, not sanctions that artificially enforce a facade of reality. Clearly not all 'real' features are wanted in SM, but features like squad caps are not adding to playability or to realism.

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Re: Squad Sizes

I wasn't going to wager into this debate .... seems like Teb is leading the charge and fighting the frontier almost unaided anyway. :P

As many of you know, I enjoy the odd bit of scouting and have a decent youth squad in each of my teams but I'm actually on John/SM's side here (although Teb has some solid arguments). The largest squad I ever had was 80 odd players, that was more than 7 FULL teams so to me at least the 120 player cap seems more than reasonable. :)

I think we should all remember a few points when discussing this topic. How many EPL clubs, or top division clubs around the world have more than 100 'professional' players on their books??? The average first team squad consists of 20-odd players and then maybe a reserves side and a youth side (some unpaid???) but I dare say that still wouldn't tally 100 players.

I guess I see SM like a business, which to a large degree football is these days anyway. I buy players that I think are EITHER undervalued (in the short term) or have potential (in the medium to long term) to increase. Some may never become 90 rated players and I use these to buy other players, thereby cashing in on the profit made when the player's rating/value rose.

I constantly buy and sell .... it's a market after all. As Teb has often said, EVERY player has his price :D

I guess the difference is I have NEVER (nor will I) managed Barcelona, Real Madrid, AC or Inter Milan on SM so have no idea what it's like to have millions to splash about. Smaller clubs never have these 'issues' as it's just financially unfeasible. Even Perry has had trouble maintaining a squad larger than 30 players with his little Southend Utd team in EC1 and we know how much success he's had in scouting talent and achieving promotions. He has some of the lowest wages for any team with an 85 average starting 11, if it were any different he's constantly be in debt.

Ok, hopefully that's made a few of you reannalyse your postion or stance on the matter. :rolleyes:

Herby

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Re: Squad Sizes

Hehe, perhaps unsurprisingly it has not, but then I am pretty stubborn - anyone noticed that?

I agree with all that you are saying though, to an extent:

1) I completely agree that few real squads are anywhere near 120.

2) I completely agree that most squads will struggle to handle 120+ player wages.

My response:

1) I want squad sizes in SM to be more realistic too. I want SM to reach that objective in the most positive way possible. A cap in itself is not a realistic feature to add. What it aims to impose is realistic, but a cap is not in existence anywhere in the world, that I know of. Why not bring in features that will have the same affect, but with the added bonus of being - in themselves - realistic?

2) I want managers to have squads they can handle the size of. Crippling clubs is not something any good manager with a large squad will do. Sure, some clubs 'cannot' have big squads s they can't handle it. All the sensible managers learn this. Those that don't should be 'punished' in the sense that they become bankrupt, and the chairman refuses to invest more money, or retains prize money at end of season etc, or the club goes into bankruptcy and must effectively sell off it's star players. Or, it could be docked points. These are effective, and non-artificial ways of meeting the same end.

Off to bed now...somebody pick up the mantle for me! :)

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Re: Squad Sizes

It is also not realistic' date=' please tell me any squad with a cap in reality. Clearly SM want to convey a show of realism, but there are better long term ways of bringing about more true to life squad sizes than slapping a cap in.

[/quote']

Perhaps Teb, but let me ask you this ..... show me a REAL LIFE club that has 350 players on their books (ie paid professionals)??? :rolleyes:

I spoke about financial feasability before, well it's the fiscal and economic terms that normally stipulate a clubs player cap. Would Swindon Town or Shorpe have 120 players in REAL LIFE??? Where's the realism there? Some clubs would struggle to get 120 fans to attend an away game. :eek:

Anyway, I fear that none of this will change the way you feel about the changes Teb so I'll leave it there (no disrespect intended mate, you know I love you! :D ).

Regards,

Herby

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Re: Squad Sizes

Hehe' date=' perhaps unsurprisingly it has not, but then I am pretty stubborn - anyone noticed that?

I agree with all that you are saying though, to an extent:

1) I completely agree that few real squads are anywhere near 120.

2) I completely agree that most squads will struggle to handle 120+ player wages.

My response:

1) I want squad sizes in SM to be more realistic too. I want SM to reach that objective in the most positive way possible. A cap in itself is not a realistic feature to add. What it aims to impose is realistic, but a cap is not in existence anywhere in the world, that I know of. Why not bring in features that will have the same affect, but with the added bonus of being - in themselves - realistic?

2) I want managers to have squads they can handle the size of. Crippling clubs is not something any good manager with a large squad will do. Sure, some clubs 'cannot' have big squads s they can't handle it. All the sensible managers learn this. Those that don't should be 'punished' in the sense that they become bankrupt, and the chairman refuses to invest more money, or retains prize money at end of season etc, or the club goes into bankruptcy and must effectively sell off it's star players. Or, it could be docked points. These are effective, and non-artificial ways of meeting the same end.

Off to bed now...somebody pick up the mantle for me! :)[/quote']

I struggle to pay 24 player's wages! :D lol

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Re: Squad Sizes

Perhaps Teb' date=' but let me ask you this ..... show me a REAL LIFE club that has 350 players on their books (ie paid professionals)??? :rolleyes:

I spoke about financial feasability before, well it's the fiscal and economic terms that normally stipulate a clubs player cap. Would Swindon Town or Shorpe have 120 players in REAL LIFE??? Where's the realism there? Some clubs would struggle to get 120 fans to attend an away game. :eek:

Anyway, I fear that none of this will change the way you feel about the changes Teb so I'll leave it there (no disrespect intended mate, you know I love you! :D ).

Regards,

Herby[/quote']

although i hate to defend Teb as it goes against everything i stand for .. ;)

I think Tebs agrees its very unrealistic for say Swindon to have 120 players in real life.

But... why dont Swindow have 120 players in real life? simply because they cant financially handle them, im sure if they had the chance to sign 120 up and coming youth players like dos santos they would jump at the chance.

I think Teb just ment before a squad cap why not make it so teams cant get these players due to money etc.

Say you managed Swindon and u did have 120 players but were constantly in debt then the chairman would start accepting offers for players (there value or maybe even just 75% of there value) or maybe even sack the manager put the club on freeze so nobody can take it straight over and it gets run by the AI untill it clears the debt back it would because they always sell players(for this to work could only be AFTER the the chairman injection at the end of the season IMO)

I dont mind the 120 players as i keep saying but I think people are miss understanding Tebs points a little (or maybe I am)

I just think Me,Teb & Bobo are in the same situation as me were they would like to see stupid managers punished alot more instead of just hoping club and leaving us lot with the restrictions.

We already get alot of restrictions because of cheats like loaning out and selling players and maybe they see this as another, i did at first but im fine with it now as 120 is ample for me. although i definatly would like to see crappy managers punished more even give there account a transfer ban, yeah they could sign up with a diff account but still a bit of messing around, and Gold members couldnt do this

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Re: Squad Sizes

People who are in favor of the cap all say things about realism....fair enough, I see your point and see where you are coming from.

No real life club has over 120 professional players on their books, again I accept that and understand that.

But this isn't real life, this is a football management simulation game, I understand that some realism is needed otherwise it would be like every other crap football simulation game on the net. But it isn't, not everything is based on realism, that's what makes it the best game on the net.

Fair enough ratings are based on real life, another thing that makes the game so good.

But in real life do you see players sign for the teams you do in SM?

No you don't there is lenience on the part of SM regarding transfers, players signing for clubs that they would never sign for in real life.

If SM were to introduce a system that would restrict the players that a club could buy then there would be an uproar from SM users, I don't see why people are not having more of a moan about the number of players they can sign. It might not be the same thing but it is a restriction about how we play the game and how we manage our clubs.

Personally I think other methods could have been used to stop managers from buying 350 players as has been stated.

I can see how SM would want to stop people from ruining clubs financially but just because the team has lots of players doesn't mean that the club will go into financial hardship. People will eventually sell the players that they have bought after an increase or they will eventually be good enough to break into the players first team.

I think that the fact that the AI is now making bids for players will help immensely, the people with 120+ players would struggle to sell players to other managers in the set-up, but now the AI is bidding for players they will almost be guaranteed a return on their players.

Claiming clubs in real life have massive squads is not true. Yes they have youth academies etc but in soccermanager we just deal with players that have 'made-it' and do not include academy players and so comparing the real Liverpool with its academies etc and the soccermanager Liverpool is not a fair comparison.

As I was the person that mentioned about the number of players that Liverpool has, I will assume that this was a response to my statement.

Yes soccermanager doesn't have youth academies etc. and rightly so IMO. But when people have 120+ players IMO that is them buying players that will have a role that real life academy players have. Teams on SM won't have a steady stream of players at their disposal like real life clubs do so what do they do? They go and look for talents to act as though they were in youth academies.

Personally this cap is only going to affect me with one team that I have, my Liverpool in World Championship 5. I did not buy the players that the club has (49 first team players and 75 youth players) I got the club when I seen it was available, now I admit that isn't the greatest state financially because of the manager before me but because the AI is now bidding for players I will cash in on the players that he/she had bought before I obtained the club.

After I sell all the players that are unneeded then I will be in great shape financially which would not have happened if the manager before me didn't buy the players he/she did.

I just think that people who buy players and put the club into financial difficulty should be the ones that should have the amount of players that they have capped and maybe be forced to sell players because of the debt that they have encountered.

I think that managers who have lots of players but are making a good financial profit for the club should be allowed to continue their buying and then selling their players. As I started this post about realism, I will finish it about realism, in real life would a chairman/board of directors stop a manager from buying players if they knew they would get a return on that player that would help the club financially like I have just mentioned? I doubt it somehow.....:)

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Re: Squad Sizes

Perhaps Teb' date=' but let me ask you this ..... show me a REAL LIFE club that has 350 players on their books (ie paid professionals)??? :rolleyes:

I spoke about financial feasability before, well it's the fiscal and economic terms that normally stipulate a clubs player cap. Would Swindon Town or Shorpe have 120 players in REAL LIFE??? Where's the realism there? Some clubs would struggle to get 120 fans to attend an away game. :eek:

Anyway, I fear that none of this will change the way you feel about the changes Teb so I'll leave it there (no disrespect intended mate, you know I love you! :D ).

Regards,

Herby[/quote']

I agree Herb. BUt, say to me then where's the realism in taking Swindon Town to first division? Where's the realism in having Swindon attacking double formed by, let's say, Ronaldo and Messi?

SM, as any other Online Manager, isn't meant to be 100% failthful to what happens in reality. At first we were given full freedon to buy, sell, loan players and build the team as we wanted.

Now we can't buy certain players. Cannot loan certain players. Cannot Sell certain players. Will we have to build a team with more limitations?

As Neller, I'm not worried because My biggest teams had "only" 90 players, but, none of the reasons given by John could convince me that this measure will be proven helpful in the future.

introduce things like 'players fitness has not increased today as the clubs coaches couldn't physically train 150 players on the training ground.' and 'Tim Jones has requested a transfer as he is upset that he is now considered 7th choice RB' and 'Ryan McNab refuses to sign as he believes his oppotunities at a club which has 97 players will be limited.'

At last until a few days ago when a low rated team tried to buy a high-rated player' date=' didn't the manager receive a message saying 'Ryan McNab refuses to sign as he believes this club is worth playing for" ?

As Herby stated, Football is about market, money, investments.

If the manager has the money to buy the player and pay his wages, letting him have that player wouldn't be [i']reasonable, fair, realistic and a straight way of doing things.[/i]?

I find this extremely bizairre that you would rather have your squad hit by a plague of messages' date=' problems, bad morale etc all instead of not having a cap of 120 players which most reasonable managers never even reach![/quote']

Wouldn't that "plague of messages, problems, bad morale etc" be the consequence of the manager's choices? He would be the resposible for his acts, and would have to deal with the consequences. If he couldn't handle these consequences, he would have the option to sell players to reduce his squad size (1), or, in last case, quit that team and let an other, better manager take over(2).

Isn't "(1)" what you are trying to achieve since the beggining? And, isn't "(2)" what many managers proposed to be done to those managers?

Now, which options would the implementation of the cap give to the manager of a big squad, at first moment? Only "(2)". He would have to agree with this measure, and sell many players. or, he'd have to leave the team he built for years, simply because the option of trying to handle the messy situation wasn't given to him.

It doesn't sound any realistic, fair or reasonable. And It wouldn't be beneficial to the manager, neither to SM, who would be taking the risk of losing considerable amounts of managers, customers, potential Gold Members, unhappy with the service.

As I said, I'm not worried with this cap, because it won't hit me, but I'm a player too, and would like to hear a good explanation for this measure, since we've colaborated with many alternative routes to penalizing the managers that abuses that "transfers freedom", but none of them seems to be decent enough to be used.

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Re: Squad Sizes

although i hate to defend Teb as it goes against everything i stand for ..

I think Tebs agrees its very unrealistic for say Swindon to have 120 players in real life.

But... why dont Swindow have 120 players in real life? simply because they cant financially handle them' date=' im sure if they had the chance to sign 120 up and coming youth players like dos santos they would jump at the chance.

I think Teb just ment before a squad cap why not make it so teams cant get these players due to money etc.

Say you managed Swindon and u did have 120 players but were constantly in debt then the chairman would start accepting offers for players (there value or maybe even just 75% of there value) or maybe even sack the manager put the club on freeze so nobody can take it straight over and it gets run by the AI untill it clears the debt back it would because they always sell players(for this to work could only be AFTER the the chairman injection at the end of the season IMO)

I dont mind the 120 players as i keep saying but I think people are miss understanding Tebs points a little (or maybe I am)

I just think Me,Teb & Bobo are in the same situation as me were they would like to see stupid managers punished alot more instead of just hoping club and leaving us lot with the restrictions.

We already get alot of restrictions because of cheats like loaning out and selling players and maybe they see this as another, i did at first but im fine with it now as 120 is ample for me. although i definatly would like to see crappy managers punished more even give there account a transfer ban, yeah they could sign up with a diff account but still a bit of messing around, and Gold members couldnt do this[/quote']

You mention stupid and crappy managers .... why is someone with 350 players either of these? Like John mentioned, buying every 16, 17 and 18 yr old free agent is a tactic for some managers, it doesn't mean they're stupid and I'm sure some do extremely well in the game. The tactic requires no research, just hope and wait. :rolleyes: If I had a Barca with 100+ million in the bank I might do the same. :P

I can accept what you said about Swindon, but it's never the small clubs that have 120+ players, is it??? It's the big, desired clubs on SM. The likes of the G14 that I mentioned earlier, with the big name stars in their squads already and the large stadiums. These are also the clubs that normally attract the before-mentioned, for right or wrong, stupid and crappy managers as it's a whole lot easier to succeed with them. ;)

Fact is, a Barca, Real, AC Milan, etc can easily support a squad of 150-200 players without going into debt or financial difficulty. We've all seen it before .... they sell a 90+ rated player for 25M and then buy 50 youngsters worth 500k or less. The wages for a <75 rated player is a drop in the ocean for these big clubs, I think my 3 year old god son could manage the payroll. :eek:

Herby

p.s. I'm stubborn too! lol

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Re: Squad Sizes

You mention stupid and crappy managers .... why is someone with 350 players either of these? Like John mentioned' date=' buying every 16, 17 and 18 yr old free agent is a tactic for some managers, it doesn't mean they're stupid and I'm sure some do extremely well in the game. The tactic requires no research, just hope and wait. :rolleyes: If I had a Barca with 100+ million in the bank I might do the same. :P

I can accept what you said about Swindon, but it's never the small clubs that have 120+ players, is it??? It's the big, [i']desired[/i] clubs on SM. The likes of the G14 that I mentioned earlier, with the big name stars in their squads already and the large stadiums. These are also the clubs that normally attract the before-mentioned, for right or wrong, stupid and crappy managers as it's a whole lot easier to succeed with them.

Fact is, a Barca, Real, AC Milan, etc can easily support a squad of 150-200 players without going into debt or financial difficulty. We've all seen it before .... they sell a 90+ rated player for 25M and then buy 50 youngsters worth 500k or less. The wages for a <75 rated player is a drop in the ocean for these big clubs, I think my 3 year old god son could manage the payroll. :eek:

Herby

p.s. I'm stubborn too! lol

ok so if they guy isnt in debt or ruining the club with 350 players why limit him?

I thought one of the reasons for the limit was due to people with 350 players leaving a club to much in debt?? whats why i said stupid

If we going to go for realism then what about all the points below listed by Dexter, Bryan and Myself ?

Would people like not being able to sign hardly anyone at all because theres no way would even some of the 70 rated players join these division 4 clubs.

And you definatly couldnt get some of the players on loan that you do. Plus theres the all star squads i mentioned earlier.

As i said i dont mind the squad limit, i just think the counters people have used out do the reasons.

But i also agree with John 100% about having loads of pages to do your team it would be a great hassle and be very ugly. It would also add quite alot of uneeded work for SM when they can be working on more of the cool features that have been added lately.

"btw you just wait until teb is back u are in for it... and boy you will have some reading to do ;) "

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Re: Squad Sizes

Ermmmmmm.....

I think if you want realism. Would you wanna move to a club that has 349 players. I mean, you are not really gonna get a game are ya. lol!!

Capped to 30 in first team and 30 in youth team. Sounds harsh. But why cant we not be like the football we have, where BIG clubs just get BIGGER and small clubs waste away into debt.

This gives other clubs a chance to. Which is the whole fun of a game.

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Re: Squad Sizes

Feeling a bit despondent about all of this and whether SM is actually worth playing anymore. The fun has been ripped out of the game for me and fellow coaches don't understand my strategy, why because they don;t play the game that way. I've broken no existing rules and have 10 teams with 200+ squads all in good financial health and prospering in their leagues.

I have other forum members though describing "people like me" in terms of "idiot" and "moron", this terminology is offensive to me and should be censored as inappropriate. All i've done is adopted a different strategy that is financially viable and I am having success with, I didn't hurt anybody in doing it either and have regularly helped lower league clubs by loaning players out.

The minimum squad value I have is Wigan with £222 Million, I will finish 2nd with Wigan in the premiership this season, I did the cup double, I currently have 266 squad players and a healthy bank balance to boot. Wigan squads start off at about £70m, so i've added £150m in just less than 2 seasons, hardly idiotic!

I have a degree in Accounting and the maths are simple, buy for example 50 researched and scouted players rated 70 and the cost for 25 turns is £15K X 50 = £750K and £3500 per week X 50 players X 25 = £4.4M.

In otherwords you can buy 50 X 70 rated players for £4.4M. All you have to do is have 2 go to 80 (at £2M+ each) and sell them to breakeven and i've had several (e.g. Adam Hammill, Dean Gerken, Chris Martin, Denys Holaido as examples). And I have loads reach the 73-78 space too, buying 50 X 70 rated players I would probably return my investment 1000%, hardly idiotic! All these players are scouted too and not just random purchases, some i've shared on the forum.

I am not irresponsible and a short termist, I am long-term at all my clubs and my clubs have high squad values, e.g. Borussia Dortmund WC72 squad value £420million, whereas a new Dortmund is less than £100M value. Is that bad management, well I don't think so. I've made £300M+.

For me the most appealing part of the game has always been scouting and buying players. How could I strategise over the results, the results engine is often a lottery, we've all been there, 70% possession, 23 shots on target to your opponents 5 and you lost 5-1, and i'm not exaggerating.

For me the challenge has become how do I make Borussia Dortmund, Wigan, Middlesbrough (where I just won the premiership by 21 points), Dynamo Kiev competitive and this is how. By scouting players that are under-rated, buying them low and selling them later high. Is this wrong? I've also not bought many players in my Real Madrid league and am 5 points clear with them too. I've also won the cup 5 times in around 30 attempts, not too bad!

All I have to look forward to in the future (for a while) with most of my teams is selling players and changing tactics once the bugs are fixed, that's not very exciting for a scouting oriented coach, this may be the finsih of me with SM. Not because i'm not viable financially or because of bad league results/finishes but because the enjoyment may disappear from the game.

As for player hogging most of the players I buy are unheard of by the majority of players anyway as most of the time I can sign them uncontested in most leagues, time and time again.

I spend probably 6 hours a week scouting and sign players from all over, e.g. Hungary, Japan, Chile, etc and have made good profit from this.

I buy some of the FA's added each week, e.g. Lulinha (190 mins), Leandro (542 mins) and Willian (431 mins) all of Corinthians but only because I checked them all first. I never buy speculatively I always scout the player.

I've never complained about the speed of screen processing of my squads as it's never been an issue, never ever.

As stated before what I think is a big issue in the game is 90+ player hogging by the cash clubs (e.g. I know teams with 40+ 90 rated players - now is that realistic either). Can you buy any of these players off them, of course you can't unless you offer extreme money, so how do I compete? I don't think this is currently realistic but SM currently allows this!

I've been a loyal customer for SM, surfing 15-20 hours per week, this will obviously drop now as I can't bid for players.

So an idiot/moron no a scout yes and a player whose clubs will probably have £200M+ cash each by the time I get down to 120 players which I estimate will be in 6 months time. So watch out then as i'll have the dosh for some big deals, but of course the big clubs won't sell Rooney, Kaka, Ronaldinho for stupid money anyway - as they don't need to. Vicious circle really, my strategy of buying low and selling high was working but now I will have to rethink - no doubt i'll adjust but less idiot and moron jibes would help at a time where a player like me is feeling sensitive and has a feeling of actually having done nothing wrong except trying to do the best for your teams.

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Re: Squad Sizes

Feeling a bit despondent about all of this and whether SM is actually worth playing anymore. The fun has been ripped out of the game for me and fellow coaches don't understand my strategy' date=' why because they don;t play the game that way. [b']I've broken no existing rules[/b] and have 10 teams with 200+ squads all in good financial health and prospering in their leagues.

I have other forum members though describing "people like me" in terms of "idiot" and "moron", this terminology is offensive to me and should be censored as inappropriate. All i've done is adopted a different strategy that is financially viable and I am having success with, I didn't hurt anybody in doing it either and have regularly helped lower league clubs by loaning players out.

The minimum squad value I have is Wigan with £222 Million, I will finish 2nd with Wigan in the premiership this season, I did the cup double, I currently have 266 squad players and a healthy bank balance to boot. Wigan squads start off at about £70m, so i've added £150m in just less than 2 seasons, hardly idiotic!

I have a degree in Accounting and the maths are simple, buy for example 50 researched and scouted players rated 70 and the cost for 25 turns is £15K X 50 = £750K and £3500 per week X 50 players X 25 = £4.4M.

In otherwords you can buy 50 X 70 rated players for £4.4M. All you have to do is have 2 go to 80 (at £2M+ each) and sell them to breakeven and i've had several (e.g. Adam Hammill, Dean Gerken, Chris Martin, Denys Holaido as examples). And I have loads reach the 73-78 space too, buying 50 X 70 rated players I would probably return my investment 1000%, hardly idiotic! All these players are scouted too and not just random purchases, some i've shared on the forum.

I am not irresponsible and a short termist, I am long-term at all my clubs and my clubs have high squad values, e.g. Borussia Dortmund WC72 squad value £420million, whereas a new Dortmund is less than £100M value. Is that bad management, well I don't think so. I've made £300M+.

For me the most appealing part of the game has always been scouting and buying players. How could I strategise over the results, the results engine is often a lottery, we've all been there, 70% possession, 23 shots on target to your opponents 5 and you lost 5-1, and i'm not exaggerating.

For me the challenge has become how do I make Borussia Dortmund, Wigan, Middlesbrough (where I just won the premiership by 21 points), Dynamo Kiev competitive and this is how. By scouting players that are under-rated, buying them low and selling them later high. Is this wrong? I've also not bought many players in my Real Madrid league and am 5 points clear with them too. I've also won the cup 5 times in around 30 attempts, not too bad!

All I have to look forward to in the future (for a while) with most of my teams is selling players and changing tactics once the bugs are fixed, that's not very exciting for a scouting oriented coach, this may be the finsih of me with SM. Not because i'm not viable financially or because of bad league results/finishes but because the enjoyment may disappear from the game.

As for player hogging most of the players I buy are unheard of by the majority of players anyway as most of the time I can sign them uncontested in most leagues, time and time again.

I spend probably 6 hours a week scouting and sign players from all over, e.g. Hungary, Japan, Chile, etc and have made good profit from this.

I buy some of the FA's added each week, e.g. Lulinha (190 mins), Leandro (542 mins) and Willian (431 mins) all of Corinthians but only because I checked them all first. I never buy speculatively I always scout the player.

I've never complained about the speed of screen processing of my squads as it's never been an issue, never ever.

As stated before what I think is a big issue in the game is 90+ player hogging by the cash clubs (e.g. I know teams with 40+ 90 rated players - now is that realistic either). Can you buy any of these players off them, of course you can't unless you offer extreme money, so how do I compete? I don't think this is currently realistic but SM currently allows this!

I've been a loyal customer for SM, surfing 15-20 hours per week, this will obviously drop now as I can't bid for players.

So an idiot/moron no a scout yes and a player whose clubs will probably have £200M+ cash each by the time I get down to 120 players which I estimate will be in 6 months time. So watch out then as i'll have the dosh for some big deals, but of course the big clubs won't sell Rooney, Kaka, Ronaldinho for stupid money anyway - as they don't need to. Vicious circle really, my strategy of buying low and selling high was working but now I will have to rethink - no doubt i'll adjust but less idiot and moron jibes would help at a time where a player like me is feeling sensitive and has a feeling of actually having done nothing wrong except trying to do the best for your teams.

Flippin heck. What a post!!! (Clayts grabs his words about capped squad size and stuffs it down his own throat.) Eating my words here.

Fantastic post mate, really is. You are the Scout. 6 hours a week. Might just show that maybe you are dedicated to the game more than most. So, in light of that, maybe there shouldn't be a capped squad size.

I think anyone who uses time on the game should be "blessed" with a big squad due to hard work. At the end of the day the more hours you work, the more money you get in a job. Overtime = More.

So overtime in scouting players = More???

One thing I will ask. Is the percentage of players, players you really havent heard of?

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Re: Squad Sizes

I'm not scared of Teb or his long, argumentative and well constructed posts. :P:D I know Steve, and most of you, have the best intensions for the game at heart, which I'm sure John and the SM team respect and appreciate.

My only concern is that some of the ideas and solutions that have been proposed are rather complex. What has surprised me is that many have argued against the restrictions proposed by John, yet almost all of you have said that it would not impact you in any way, shape or form. Surely that's saying something??? Some of SM's most addicted and devoted managers don't have squads the size that SM are talking about restricting (max 120 players), so what's all the fuss about? As Bobo said, how many are there in all set-ups on SM with squads in excess of 120 players?? I think the figure would be sub-25 :rolleyes:

But where will it stop? Will some of these squads eventually swell to 500?? Why not? Quite possible I think.

Anyway, I'm going to leave it there. :)

No more comments from me unless Teb asks me a direct question, which I'll answer out of respect and good manners.

Cheers,

Herby

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Re: Squad Sizes

I have a Bayern Munich, that I put countless hours developping the youth system to get all the kids with potential. I have 168 players. What was I possibly thinking?

1) Ok, I have 160 million. What do I do? I try to buy decent players. Offer 20 Million (overpayment) Joaquin and 30 Million for Fred. Both managers reply with counter offers of, respectivly, 90 Million, and 70 million plus Sagnol. Here’s the question. COULD a club get away with 168 players developping, in the organization? They probably could. Could a manger get away with paying 90 million for Joaquin? He’s be shown the door, pushed out, kicked on the way out and stripped of all his belongings. I sure as **** ain’t paying 90 Million for Joaquin. That’s the price in most of the early setups. THERE is your unrealistic.

2) So I can’t get stars. Might as well pickup stars for tomorrow. But everyone knows that not every bright youngster pans out. I have 160 million, might as well get as many as I can. Sure I have 168 players, but I’m still in division 1, not in debt (I have 21.8M), and have quality players. My team was handpicked! Ziebig, Jazic, Shilla, Schwegler, Mati Fernandez, Kader Keita, Barnetta, Job, Del Moral, Dong, Neuer, Riou, Pouplin, Begovic, Vrzogic, De Corte, Rincon, Fagner, Chica, Domingos, Huntington, Digao, Babin, Polak, Edgar, Cork, Marcos, Villaluz, Day, Pablo, De la Red, Jimenez, Salami, Bangura, Fritzler, Parr, Walker, Scorza, Banega, Jurado, Remy, Peters, Lavezzi, Agbonlahor, Vonlathen, Payet, Mata, Braulio, Vidangossy, Strestik, Coentrao, Jonathan, Farkas, Sahar, Vela, Sosa. I could go on. They have all had raises, and I have researched every one that I didn’t scout myself (a lot of them I have).

OK, so now I have my ideal youth squad. Did I sacrifice my starting lineup in any way? Right now I’m starting Doni, Sagnol, Salcido, Ismael, Matuzalem, Salihamidzic, Perez, Keita, Makaay, Mati Fernandez and Petric. That’s better than what I had back then.

My squad is being built within the rules of the time that I had them. Bobo’s squad also has. So has Teb’s and many of the other complainers. Why should we pay the price now? Leave us alone, we havn’t done anything wrong, have we?

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Re: Squad Sizes

Ermmmmmm.....

I think if you want realism. Would you wanna move to a club that has 349 players. I mean' date=' you are not really gonna get a game are ya. lol!!

Capped to 30 in first team and 30 in youth team. Sounds harsh. But why cant we not be like the football we have, where BIG clubs just get BIGGER and small clubs waste away into debt.

This gives other clubs a chance to. Which is the whole fun of a game.[/quote']

I have to completely disagree with this and think there should be no cap on squad sizes. I have not read this whole thread as there are close to 200 posts!! I have read some though and it seems like a fantastic thread with some excellent posts.:D:D

I currently have 2 or 3 squads with 90 plus players and I love scouting younger players and increasing my squad size. I spend hours on SM every week both in the forum and scouting youngsters. I read just about every player talent scout post in the forum and regularly find players that I have already signed. Example, there was a thread on Sascha Studer a few weeks back but I had signed him about 2 weeks earlier. Scouting on this game is one of the major plus points on SM. It gives me something to do in the wee small hours after a late shift at work when there is nothing else to do.

I have a lot of teams on SM and not one is in debt. I have an Arsenal squad with 90+ players that is successful and has a healthy balance and also a bayern team with approx 85 players with 30 mil in the bank.

As I said earlier I have not read the whole thread so I am going to make a suggestion now which may have been mentioned, forgive me if it has.

The best way to keep teams out of debt is the following:-

If a team goes into debt by a certain figure (decieded by SM) then all players in that teams squad become available at free agent prices until the clubs debt is cleared!! This could also be backed up by club chairman only allowing a % of the teams revenue for transfers rather than the clubs financial balance as it is now. I think this would be easy to implement and would make it difficult to get into debt. It also offers a massive deterrant as who wants to lose their best player for 75% his cash value?? I guess no-one!!

If a team can support any number of players financially what is the problem?? There are 1000's of youngsters on SM so no-one is really player hogging and football is all about first come, first serve!! If you scout a player, even if you have 200 players already why shouldn't you be allowed to capitilise on your hard work by picking him up cheap and watching him become the next Messi or Fabregas??

Again, sorry for anything that is duplicated!:D

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Re: Squad Sizes

I'm not scared of Teb or his long' date=' argumentative and well constructed posts. :P:D I know Steve, and most of you, have the best intensions for the game at heart, which I'm sure John and the SM team respect and appreciate.

My only concern is that some of the ideas and solutions that have been proposed are rather complex. What has surprised me is that many have argued against the restrictions proposed by John, yet almost all of you have said that it would not impact you in any way, shape or form. Surely that's saying something??? Some of SM's most addicted and devoted managers don't have squads the size that SM are talking about restricting (max 120 players), so what's all the fuss about? As Bobo said, how many are there in all set-ups on SM with squads in excess of 120 players?? I think the figure would be sub-25 :rolleyes:

But where will it stop? Will some of these squads eventually swell to 500?? Why not? Quite possible I think.

Anyway, I'm going to leave it there.

No more comments from me unless Teb asks me a direct question, which I'll answer out of respect and good manners.

Cheers,

Herby[/quote']

Ahem!!!! cough cough. Its Teb here!! cough!!

Herby a direct question to you from Teb!! cough!

Would you like a squad of 250 if I clicked my fingers and they were there?

Like I said from Teb the Reb. cough!! :D

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Re: Squad Sizes

Ermmmmmm.....

I think if you want realism. Would you wanna move to a club that has 349 players. I mean' date=' you are not really gonna get a game are ya. lol!!

Capped to 30 in first team and 30 in youth team. Sounds harsh. But why cant we not be like the football we have, where BIG clubs just get BIGGER and small clubs waste away into debt.

This gives other clubs a chance to. Which is the whole fun of a game.[/quote']

Yeah, I would like to disagree with what I said too!!! :D The fastest conversion known in history!!

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Re: Squad Sizes

Initially I haven't heard of most of the players (e.g. Lulinha-Corinthians, Cavani then Danubio now Palermo, Vidangossy Union Espanyol now Villarreal) but as I see their stats each week I get more familiar with them.

I research from all leagues across the world and have stats available on most leagues (China being an exception).

Although I don't actually see the players play I have statistical knowledge of them, I also took degree modules in Statistics as a part of my Accounting degree!

Most of the time I can guess what SM will increase ratings too and sometimes e-mail SM with players they forget (although they're usually excellent)

As examples of players stats, free tips for those interested, all of whom I expect to rise from 73 to 79 when they next get rated:

Andre Alves, Kaposvar, Hungary, 2607mins, 10 goals

Leozinho, Eintracht Braunschweig, Germany B, 850mins, 2 goals

Gonzalo Robledo, Banfield, Argentina, 368mins

Massimiliano Mei, Venezia, Italy C, 1877mins, 1 goal

I have 23 X players at the moment who I feel will rise from a 70 to a 73 rating, this will return any investment back well over double if these players are kept for 25 weeks.

There's just two examples, I have 376 players I believe will rise in an Access Database. So it's not luck and random, it's the result of hard work and as you say Clayts doesn't that deserve its own reward. And why if I know they will rise shouldn't I buy them, especially if I know there is a good return on investment.

I know this is playing SM a bit like a stock market game but that's where the fun lies for me. As you make profit on players you tend to be able to buy more expensive players as you go along and also can reinvest in more prospects.

On that point maybe I need to find a stock market simulation game instead!

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On that point maybe I need to find a stock market simulation game instead!

You beat me to it bestpay :D

and no doubt your bank manager would love you a lot more too. ;)

All valid points, just depends on how 'realistic' the SM team wants to keep the game. No chairman would allow you to buy each and every player on your database/spreadsheet, the difference being that you have hindsight. You know that this player has already done the work and achieved results, hence will increase. In real life, if you're a manager of an english team and you bring a player out from spain or italy, no matter how good, there's always that doubt about how he will adapt to the league and the team's style of play. You don't face these variables in your decision making process, you look at facts and figures and know that there's money to be made. ;)

I realise that this is a great appeal to many people playing the game, and SM should take that into consideration before implementing any restrictions on a manager's ability to scout and purchase players, in turn possibly increasing the wealth of a club.

Herby

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