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Guest SM Dev (Ste)

Club Debt/Player Hogging/OAP Squads

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Guest SM Dev (Ste)

Last week I was discussing with someone from the tech team, the issues of player hogging, OAP squads, and club debt. This has also been flagged up on other threads on the forum over the past week.

Here are some current examples we aim to address:

There are some clubs who have players like Gerrard, Nesta, Puyol etc on their bench, and other established stars not even making the subs bench. This could be viewed as unrealistic, and classed as player hogging.

Some managers who take over a lower division club, try and build an instant squad, and this has long term implications. A manager will buy veteran players, who have a high rating, but can be picked up cheaply. He is only planning for the short term, and is building a squad full of OAPs.

There are several consequences of OAP squads. Firslty a club will develop a high wage bill. Due to only being a small club, the outgoings (eg wages) outstrip the clubs incomings. In turn the club starts to lose money on a weekly basis.

The club ends up in the red, and is not in a position (in most cases) to climb out of debt. Due to having several veteran players, he can not sell these for a sufficient fee to help his clubs debt.

In turn the manager will resign from the club, leaving it with a massive debt, and having a squad with a very high average age. There is only a small percentage of managers who actually take control of these clubs, but usually leave after a few turns.

The club is usually left in ruin. The club has a massive debt, and a squad who is on its last legs. A manager will not have any cash to rebuild the squad, and any money which comes in, is required to clear the debt. A no win situation.

There are also several other ways in which managers can plunge a club into debt, but I am not going to write about it, due to the space available to post.

We discussed several possibilites to try and address these problems:

We could limit a squads average age - setting an average limit (for example) of 32 years. Once this average is reached, if you tried to buy more veteran players, your chairman would issue a message stating he wants you to buy more younger players or similar.

We could set an overdraft limit for each club, dependant of their division and setup. If a club went over this limit, the chairman would then place the highest value player on the transfer list, to try and get funds to clear the debt.

We could make the players approach the manager, if he was not happy with his playing situation (due to being left on the bench etc), and request a transfer or similar.

Then we thought of one idea that would deal with player hogging, OAP squads, and club debt. This would be in the form of a wage budget, based on the clubs income. This would stop people financially ruining a club (as mentioned above), and would also address the problem of player hogging.

There is nothing concrete a the moment, and we would like to see various views on this subject.

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Re: Club Debt/Player Hogging/OAP Squads

i think uve sed it but ill say it neway :D u cud introduce a wage budget 2 smaller clubs for example div 3 teams in eng champ cud only have for the wage bill the same as the income for e.g say each home game u get 700k as u play 2 games a week (not including cups) they wud only be allowed to spend 350k wages then they cudnt get into debt? u understand lol?

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Re: Club Debt/Player Hogging/OAP Squads

re player hogging

If you want a team to seriously go for league and both cups in a set up, because of the time it takes for conditions to get past 95% after a match I have found I need 2 teams of 90+ rated players to enable this to happen. One team for the league and the other team for the cups, I don't see this as player hogging as the club dosn't go into debt (all be it a big club)

To stop people buying up the so called "big players" then player conditions need looking at imo

The oap squads yer fair enough I tried that way once when I first started playing SM and quickly found myself in debt.

An overdraft system leading to players being put up for sale against your will, dunno if I like this idea, my Spurs side was running at 4 mill in debt, got to the end of the season and the prize money put me back into positive balance. The only person to suffer from this was myself because it ment I could only buy a player when the chairman injected some cash a week later, rather than buying 2 players, one with the prize money straight after end of season and then another with the cash injection.

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Re: Club Debt/Player Hogging/OAP Squads

These are some of my ideas of player hogging:

I don't think that squad sizes should be limited, because those that have been able to build strong squads should not be punished for being good managers. However, I think some things should be changed to make it more realistic. Here are some ideas:

The rating system could be adjusted to reflect how often someone actually plays. For instance, you could have a 'baseline' rating for a player. Then his actual rating can actually slightly fluctuate around this baseline to reflect how often he has played. For instance, take a player now rated as 90. If the manager plays him a lot, his rating could then be temporarily be increased to 91 or 92. On the other hand, if the player is not played very often, his rating would then actually decrease to 89 or 88. Basically this would take into account the actual players skills in real life (the baseline) but then also have an adjustment factor that depends on how he is used by the manager (the fluctuation).

Another adjustment that can be made would be that highly-rated players who do not play a lot will refuse to sign contract extensions and actually be forced to leave the club. They can then be bought by other clubs and only a fraction of the transfer fee goes to the original club, thereby punishing them for mismanaging their team.

If these things have been mentioned before I apologize ( I usually only read/write in the Player Talent, and Player Rating sections)

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Guest MR_ENG_CHAMP_1

Re: Club Debt/Player Hogging/OAP Squads

Good to see this brought up Ste,

the idea that i think would work for clubs going into debt is having a transfer budget and a wage budget

the wage budget would be set by the chairman and would be made so that you would not ending up in falling into debt

i think this would work because my southampton eng 1 team after 3 games started falling into debt and there was no way of knowing how much is going out on wages unless you add all the wages up .....but then you still dont know how much you are going to gain in other areas like from home matches

the way i got out of debt was selling govou who is a 91 for only 4 m plus lupoli and mc culloch which is an okay deal but is not going to help me compete in division 1

whats your views !!!!!!!!!!!!???????

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Re: Club Debt/Player Hogging/OAP Squads

Good to see this brought up Ste' date='

the idea that i think would work for clubs going into debt is having a transfer budget and a wage budget

the wage budget would be set by the chairman and would be made so that you would not ending up in falling into debt

i think this would work because my southampton eng 1 team after 3 games started falling into debt and there was no way of knowing how much is going out on wages unless you add all the wages up .....but then you still dont know how much you are going to gain in other areas like from home matches

the way i got out of debt was selling govou who is a 91 for only 4 m plus lupoli and mc culloch which is an okay deal but is not going to help me compete in division 1

whats your views !!!!!!!!!!!!???????[/b']

thts a bit like my idea...its virtually the same just it depends on the capacity on mine :D

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Re: Club Debt/Player Hogging/OAP Squads

I think it would be a great idea to limit the amount of stars playing for 1 club, i saw on a couple of posts someone saying that they need 2 teams, but that can still be done as 90/91 rated players can be subs anyway and are in real life.

Its the likes of Gerrard,Ronaldinho,Etoo etc who would not settle for a place on the bench on a regular basis. so i think the limit should be mainly for say the amount of 92 and over players you can hold.

I no loads of people wont be for this idea but thats just the transfer adicts who like to own all the best players :). its probably the most unrealistic thing on SM at the moment.

As for a chairman placing your best player on the transfer list i dont think thats very fair because as i said on another thread you cannot keep teams like grimsby out of debt as you cannot sell players its impossible and even if you dont buy any players and keep the default squad it still goes into debt.

I also dont really like the idea of a wage cap, if there was a wage cap then i couldnt have done what i have with all my lower clubs, yes during the season they run a few million into debt but then its always cleared up at the end of the season i sign a couple more players and same again every season.

doing this i have 2 amazing grimsby teams with over 60 players both were built with only 3mil starting cash but now they have loads of players worth miles more.

I think the main things that really need adding are stadium upgrades (only for lower clubs doing well and gaining promotions).

And definatly unmanagable clubs becoming ALOT more active in bidding for your players, nobody can take over these clubs and they never use there money so it does not harm say if you placed an 80 rated player on the TL and if say 5 turns goes by and no managers have bid an unmanagble team makes an offer for 75% his value, not 100% because that would make a very easy way of making money VIA the free agents. This would also be excellent for lower club managers who buy say a 70 rated guy (20k) then he jumps to 75 and you can make a small proft for your scouting.

if the above idea was added i also belive it would make squad capping not a problem as managers could offload there players that are not making the grade etc.

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Re: Club Debt/Player Hogging/OAP Squads

I think it would be a great idea to limit the amount of stars playing for 1 club' date=' i saw on a couple of posts someone saying that they need 2 teams, but that can still be done as 90/91 rated players can be subs anyway and are in real life.

Its the likes of Gerrard,Ronaldinho,Etoo etc who would not settle for a place on the bench on a regular basis. so i think the limit should be mainly for say the amount of 92 and over players you can hold.

I no loads of people wont be for this idea but thats just the transfer adicts who like to own all the best players :). its probably the most unrealistic thing on SM at the moment.

As for a chairman placing your best player on the transfer list i dont think thats very fair because as i said on another thread you cannot keep teams like grimsby out of debt as you cannot sell players its impossible and even if you dont buy any players and keep the default squad it still goes into debt.

I also dont really like the idea of a wage cap, if there was a wage cap then i couldnt have done what i have with all my lower clubs, yes during the season they run a few million into debt but then its always cleared up at the end of the season i sign a couple more players and same again every season.

doing this i have 2 amazing grimsby teams with over 60 players both were built with only 3mil starting cash but now they have loads of players worth miles more.

I think the main things that really need adding are stadium upgrades (only for lower clubs doing well and gaining promotions).

And definatly unmanagable clubs becoming ALOT more active in bidding for your players, nobody can take over these clubs and they never use there money so it does not harm say if you placed an 80 rated player on the TL and if say 5 turns goes by and no managers have bid an unmanagble team makes an offer for 75% his value, not 100% because that would make a very easy way of making money VIA the free agents. This would also be excellent for lower club managers who buy say a 70 rated guy (20k) then he jumps to 75 and you can make a small proft for your scouting.

if the above idea was added i also belive it would make squad capping not a problem as managers could offload there players that are not making the grade etc.[/quote']

i love the last idea u sed about the stadium upgrades :D thats the only thing stoppind me getting a div 4 team i dnt really agree with the idea about limiting starts unless u av them on the subs

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Re: Club Debt/Player Hogging/OAP Squads

i dnt really agree with the idea about limiting starts unless u av them on the subs

but limiting star players would be the same as having them on the subs because if you have more than 11, then you cannot give them all a game and no player like Gerrard would settle for just cup matches

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Re: Club Debt/Player Hogging/OAP Squads

but limiting star players would be the same as having them on the subs because if you have more than 11' date=' then you cannot give them all a game and no player like Gerrard would settle for just cup matches[/quote']

tru but hu wud av gerrard on the bench even if u have the best starting 11 on the game playing gerrard wd be in it

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Re: Club Debt/Player Hogging/OAP Squads

tru but hu wud av gerrard on the bench even if u have the best starting 11 on the game playing gerrard wd be in it

seen teams with Gerrard,Lampard,Xavi,Kaka,Aimar,Pirlo,Joaquin,C Ronaldo,Fabrigas etc etc all in 1 squad how do you play all these in 1 side?

and no not out of position as they have massive stars in those positions aswell

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Re: Club Debt/Player Hogging/OAP Squads

seen teams with Gerrard' date='Lampard,Xavi,Kaka,Aimar,Pirlo,Joaquin,C Ronaldo,Fabrigas etc etc all in 1 squad how do you play all these in 1 side?

and no not out of position as they have massive stars in those positions aswell[/quote']

wat team was tht btw? players get fatigued qiite easily so surely they rotate as players cnt play every came without getting nmf

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Re: Club Debt/Player Hogging/OAP Squads

wat team was tht btw? players get fatigued qiite easily so surely they rotate as players cnt play every came without getting nmf

Yeah but still team can afford or would be able to get all the best players at 1 club, it ruins setups and its still the most unrealstic thing on SM needs to have some sort of cap

And players can easily play every league match at 100% fitness, so its only the cup games they actually miss

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Re: Club Debt/Player Hogging/OAP Squads

Instead of applying/implimenting squad size limits or setting up an average age for the squads, why not just increase the value of the veteran players to start with, this would deter quick fix managers coming in and loading there teams with aging stars at a cut price and would be more realistic. A 95 rated player should be valued the same or similar, whether he is 21 or 31. For example there is no way in this world that you would ever be able to buy the likes of Paolo Maldini for a couple of hundred thousand! This would cause managers to spend more wisely and search for bargains.

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Re: Club Debt/Player Hogging/OAP Squads

Yeah but still team can afford or would be able to get all the best players at 1 club' date=' it ruins setups and its still the most unrealstic thing on SM needs to have some sort of cap

And players can easily play every league match at 100% fitness, so its only the cup games they actually miss[/quote']

Teams can only buy players if other clubs are willing to sell them. No-one has the capability of being able to pressure someone to sell because we are all behind a key board. So other managers have to take some responsibilty in selling there players and then not having the pre thought about finding replacements.

Also the issue about players fitness, if your after both league and cup why would you want to put out an inferior team in the cup when if you have good enough fit replacement players to win it?

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Re: Club Debt/Player Hogging/OAP Squads

Teams can only buy players if other clubs are willing to sell them. No-one has the capability of being able to pressure someone to sell because we are all behind a key board. So other managers have to take some responsibilty in selling there players and then not having the pre thought about finding replacements.

Also the issue about players fitness' date=' if your after both league and cup why would you want to put out an inferior team in the cup when if you have good enough fit replacement players to win it?[/quote']

Ok using your example, A manager in a setup manages to buy all the star players for low prices half the time because the managers in charge of the other clubs can be new managers and if you look around the setups this happends very,very often.

Then the manager quits the team because after a few turns he realises what hes done and wishes to start over, a new manager takes over and has no chance of getting the players back.

Then another great team becomes available and a new manager gets control and makes the same errors as the other. so then 1 club could end up with all the best players with no interest in ever selling them.

Yes he has done nothing wrong but as SM wants to be more realistic this is the most unrealsitic thing on the game and is wayyyyy of real life.

I never said put out a weak team in the cup if you have a good enough side to win it, i said that the biggest players would not be happy with only playing cup games.

In real life if Man Utd only used the likes of Ronaldo,Rooney in cup games would they be happy with that?

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Re: Club Debt/Player Hogging/OAP Squads

Putting a wage cap in place seems another way of SM trying to limit squad size for no apparent reason. Whether we are talking about 100+ squads, or average size squads of superstars, I still don't think that hogging is really a problem in SM. Sure, some managers might like to stockpile quality players, or scores of low rated ones for future, but ratings change on SM constantly as do the players available and each clubs individual finances and manager's intelligence.

The problem with having player's approach managers and asking for a transfer is presumably a manager could say no, and play the player to pacify them, but which manager would ever say yes to a transfer request? If enforced and no choice, just seems like SM are not adding realism but merely forcing players out.

But, yes, club debt is a small concern that perhaps needs addressing, I agree. Sometimes the little clubs are managed by people wanting a quick fix and after wracking up debt, failing to achieve promotion/high amounts of prize money, the manager leaves the club. Which is unfair on anyone taking them next of course. The reason I say this a small concern is that there are so many setups in the club, that the 'next' manager wouldn't take on the task unless he wanted to; they go into the job fully aware of the debt.

I think the current system in SM is fundamentally good enough already (that being that people cant spend more than they have) and that drastic changes are not needed at the moment. I think what exists simply needs building on, which is why, as I have mentioned in the Squad Cap thread, I would consider the Overdraft Limit idea the best one if the debt issue is really such a pressing one, as it just an extension on the current negative balance = no transfers rule anyway. I agree with Neller in that it would be horrible for the clubs who automatically go into debt, but i think as long as the overdraft limit was kept at a fair amount (no team is going to go into millions and millions of debt easily, or quickly) then the idea would work. Would allow fluctuations in bank balance to continue, but to a reasonable and recoverable level, but beyond that the manager can rightly do as they please in terms of numbers and ages of players.

I confess to being a bit confused at SM's recent apparent focus, given the sudden appearance of two suggestions from them which relate to squad control. I wonder what has inspired this as no forumer I can recall has expressed real concern in these areas. I would much rather see SM focusing on tweaking match engine, tactical options, stadium upgrades, site speed, unmanaged club AI, transfer activity, cheat prevention, functionality etc etc etc, then adding in rather unnecessary tweaks like age limits, wage caps, player unhappiness, etc. I am all for improvements but 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' and I suspect from the lack of complaints that nearly the entire SM community is happy with the way they are able to manager their squad and finances in the game. Those that can't are normally (to put it bluntly) the thick ones who comprise a tiny minority of managers who really shouldn't be playing a management game anyway if they are incapable of thinking more than 5 seconds ahead. I know it wouldn't be feasible to screen managers before they took a job, and so managers who are dumb or trying to be funny are always going to get a club, but it seems a shame to enforce squad management changes on all people because of a minuscule population of little twerps whose potential to damage the club is already limited naturally by the basic 'cant buy when having a negative balance' rule existed. I could maybe understand if the problem was anywhere near widespread, or if there was a finite number of clubs/setups.

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Re: Club Debt/Player Hogging/OAP Squads

I confess to being a bit confused at SM's recent apparent focus' date=' given the sudden appearance of two suggestions from them which relate to squad control. I wonder what has inspired this as no forumer I can recall has expressed real concern in these areas. I would much rather see SM focusing on tweaking match engine, tactical options, stadium upgrades, site speed, unmanaged club AI, transfer activity, cheat prevention, functionality etc etc etc, then adding in rather unnecessary tweaks like age limits, wage caps, [/quote']

Have to say I agree with this. Can't remember anyone complaining about teams having too many youngsters or hoarding players. Some measures to protect against extreme financial excess seems acceptable and useful. However, I worry that simple wage caps will limit smaller teams far more then bigger teams. The possibility of upward mobility is what makes SM appealing to so many managers. Correcting this imbalance without first correcting issues of financial disparity between big and small clubs will only further favor managers of top clubs and discourage managers from taking control of teams in all division. Hopefully whatever steps are taken to promote financial sanity will be sophisticated enough to take in to account profit from scouting and transfer profit as well as performance bonuses.

Right now the flow of cash in the game is the most significant problem in the game to me. Even if I wish to sell my players, young or otherwise, it is difficult to make a reasonable deal, especially involving cash. Most transfers are part-exchanges involving buying from unmanaged teams, especially in english championships. More needs to be done to create transfers where unmanaged teams buy players from managed sides (one aspect of improving unmanged club AI, mentioned above).

I have many young players that I would gladly sell in a cash transfer for a reasonable amount relative to their value but find it difficult to find any takers. Almost all of the cash in the game flows out to unmanaged teams where it never returns. Unmanaged teams need to be more aggressive in initiating player transfers. Players should not have to be transfer listed for this to occur as this depletes morale so greatly that most managers are loathe to do this, especially when responses are so slow coming. I know of several managers commenting on forums about not being able to sell on their current players to raise the cash, involving good useful players. Generally they were not looking for windfalls, just reasonably fair deals. Before placing squad/financial caps things must be done to correct the cash flow imbalance and lack of transfer activity that leads to difficulty in enacting transfers out of players. This will allow more teams to find ways to correct their balance sheets.

I do feel that a handful of teams hoarding too many star players can be a problem. Generally the wealthier teams initially have the ability to add player after player regardless of playing time. The lack of player decision making, to see that they will be a teams 51st youngster or 4th 90+ CM for example, is much of the problem.

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Re: Club Debt/Player Hogging/OAP Squads

I propose two ideas based on the real life. If we look now for a team in the 3 or 4 div (in real life) we will found on them players with small age and medium rating (before they be transferred to the 2 and 1 div), or player with high age (33-34-...) they have played before in the 1 div and now they pass some years in the low div before retired.

In our SM, we can make the rule the same. Player of div 3 and div 4 must be:

-player with rating no more than 87

-Player with rating more than 87 must be of age 33 year or more.

In this way we reduce the wage paid and we open the way of player transfer deal between teams to be low age to high age player.

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Re: Club Debt/Player Hogging/OAP Squads

I propose two ideas based on the real life. If we look now for a team in the 3 or 4 div (in real life) we will found on them players with small age and medium rating (before they be transferred to the 2 and 1 div)' date=' or player with high age (33-34-...) they have played before in the 1 div and now they pass some years in the low div before retired.

In our SM, we can make the rule the same. Player of div 3 and div 4 must be:

-player with rating no more than 87

-Player with rating more than 87 must be of age 33 year or more.

In this way we reduce the wage paid and we open the way of player transfer deal between teams to be low age to high age player.[/quote']Wouldnt implementing a rule that means a low division club cant sign anyone above 87 unless they are old, just encourage clubs to buy old players who are cheap but with high ratings?? :confused::confused::confused:

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Re: Club Debt/Player Hogging/OAP Squads

SM's ideal is to be as realistic as possible and still be fun. So limitingthe amount of star players seems ridicoulous. World Clas players are regularly deprived of games; look at 1/2 the chelsea squad, look a valencias joaquin, look at masherano when he played at west ham the list gioes on...

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Re: Club Debt/Player Hogging/OAP Squads

Ok, i have several players in their 30's in my Crewe club but i keep it within reason. for nearly every 'oldie' i get, i pick up a bargain from the player talent scout section here... My wage bill is 300k per turn and i can keep my nose up if i keep about 6m cash in reserve for the season. I'm doing well too (promoted from div 3 first try, now top of div 2 after 5 games) and i think its unfair to punish managers who do these things within reason. My average age is 30 and value is 1.5m. I think thats reasonable. The one thing i will point out, despite the fact that it will make things harder for me is that most keepers dont hit the 'form of their life' until they reach their 30's anyway so usually a lot of the best keepers can be picked up cheap. In my 1st 11, i have 5 players under 30.

Maybe something can be introduced to stop recklessness. I know some people just sign up and buy a load of players thinking their wages will be paid by magic. Maybe if a team is going steeply into depth by a given point in a season the manager loses the team and SM steps in to transfer list players in order to get rid of the debt etc and keep the team in some decent working order for someone to rebuild...

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