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#rooneyisyummy#

wish i could see the look on timesle's face.

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on a serious note, http://www.goal.com/en/news/1716/champions-league/2011/02/25/2368506/how-the-bundesliga-earned-an-extra-champions-league-place-at-the-

it confirms that official rankins now conquer with what we all know to be true.

this may (in my opinion hopefully) mean rating decreases for italian teams who never ever compete as serious UCL contenders or even europa league contenders.

spain and germany rule europa league i think.

england and spain rule UCL. bayern are a force to be reconed with definately though.

italy rule nothing.

i mentioned timesle because i know how much statistical analysis he does on this matter and therefore how strongly he feels about this topic ;)

i think this was the right place to post, i had a look but frankly the new layout is a bit confusing.

apologies if it is the wrong section i did look :)

i just think it is an interesting point. something that is indeed overdue, and not more of a point and not a debate purely because it is a un deniable fact :)

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Re: wish i could see the look on timesle's face.

Yes indeed, what has happened to Italian football to drop down the rankings so quickly?

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2914/champions-league/2011/02/24/2366797/remember-when-italian-teams-were-unbeatable-at-home

Italian outfield players do seem to be able to play to a much older age.

Perhaps Italian football will have to play more attacking football and bring through younger blood and adapt, if they are to regain back their ECL spot.

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Re: wish i could see the look on timesle's face.

Serie A is undoubtly the most boring league in the world.

At this rate in 2 years time Ligue 1 of France will be above Serie A on Italy.

Exactly how is that? Because it's much more technical and it actually takes skill to score other then the usual EPL counter attack through fast players that Arsenal, United, Chelsea, City, Villa, Spurs et all do?

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Re: wish i could see the look on timesle's face.

Exactly how is that? Because it's much more technical and it actually takes skill to score other then the usual EPL counter attack through fast players that Arsenal' date=' United, Chelsea, City, Villa, Spurs et all do?[/quote']

If it was all technical how do you explain the underpreformance of Serie A in Europe, if the Italian technique is better wouldnt you be beating Bayern and Spurs at home, Wouldnt Italy still be the World Champions, would they have crashed out in the group stages of the world cup. Would they have someone still representing them in the Europa League. Its in no disrespect. It is boring football to watch, it may be skillfull but its very lacklusture in enjoyable football. Arsenal are hardly the counter attacking team, same as the rest of the clubs you mentioned. Italy have nobody left in the Europa League, EPL has Liverpool and City. Englands teams look more likely to qualify further in the champions league. It takes skill to score in every league so don't use that, look at Barca they have to pass move pass move pass move and shoot they technically rip teams apart and no they are not boring to watch. France have more teams avilable to do better in the Champs League, they still have a Europa League team and a chance of Usurping Italy again.

I've seen a fair few bunch of matches for the Italians, and all they do is defend against other European teams. Eg Spain Vs Italy, simply the most boring Euro match ever, Spain tried to play the flare football and Italy sat with 11 mean behind the ball and didn't attempt to attack. Most of the rivalry matches in Italy are boring and lacklusture.

All I'm saying is I would easily pick watching a EPL/Bundesliga/La Liga or Ligue 1 Game than a Seria A game

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Re: wish i could see the look on timesle's face.

If it was all technical how do you explain the underpreformance of Serie A in Europe' date=' if the Italian technique is better wouldnt you be beating Bayern and Spurs at home, Wouldnt Italy still be the World Champions, would they have crashed out in the group stages of the world cup. Would they have someone still representing them in the Europa League. Its in no disrespect. It is boring football to watch, it may be skillfull but its very lacklusture in enjoyable football.[b'] Arsenal are hardly the counter attacking team, same as the rest of the clubs you mentioned. Italy have nobody left in the Europa League, EPL has Liverpool and City.[/b] Englands teams look more likely to qualify further in the champions league. It takes skill to score in every league so don't use that, look at Barca they have to pass move pass move pass move and shoot they technically rip teams apart and no they are not boring to watch. France have more teams avilable to do better in the Champs League, they still have a Europa League team and a chance of Usurping Italy again.

I've seen a fair few bunch of matches for the Italians, and all they do is defend against other European teams. Eg Spain Vs Italy, simply the most boring Euro match ever, Spain tried to play the flare football and Italy sat with 11 mean behind the ball and didn't attempt to attack. Most of the rivalry matches in Italy are boring and lacklusture.

All I'm saying is I would easily pick watching a EPL/Bundesliga/La Liga or Ligue 1 Game than a Seria A game

All honesty I can't explain it. I can explain that Italian teams don't take the Europa League seriously, but honestly I can't explain how Milan lost to Spurs or Inter lost to Bayern. Nor am I talking about watching the Italian National team. I'm more talking about Italian League. Also. Lazio v Roma, Juventus v Inter, Inter v Milan and Milan v Juventus are the furthest games from boring or lacklustre. In fact Lazio v Roma is probably one of the most entertaining and hostile derby matches you'll ever see. Also, Milan and Inter don't hate each other like Liverpool and United, City and United, Madrid and Barcelona and such. They're rivals for the title, but when it comes to hatred they just don't.

And so that means it's more boring then say, the MLS? Romanian League? Of the big leagues, I'll agree it's not as entertaining, because it's much slower, unless you watch the entertaining teams like Napoli, Udinese, Lazio at times, Parma, even Bologna. But most boring league in the world is a bit far fetched.

So that makes it the most boring league?

Sorry, shouldn't say they're counter attacking teams, but they're better when they do. Have you not noticed lately that Arsenal score more on a counter then they do building up? Spurs are definitely the same way, as are United, Chelsea, Villa and such. Build up plays from such teams can be good but they typically take a long shot and fail miserably or just lose it trying to pass the ball. Difference between in Italy, in which while most teams will try to hit on the counter against Inter, Milan and such, they usually can get great chance off a build up play.

Why else did Arsenal hit on the break and score 2 on Barcelona? Spurs on the break score against Milan?

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Re: wish i could see the look on timesle's face.

on a serious note' date=' [url']http://www.goal.com/en/news/1716/champions-league/2011/02/25/2368506/how-the-bundesliga-earned-an-extra-champions-league-place-at-the-[/url]

it confirms that official rankins now conquer with what we all know to be true.

this may (in my opinion hopefully) mean rating decreases for italian teams who never ever compete as serious UCL contenders or even europa league contenders.

spain and germany rule europa league i think.

england and spain rule UCL. bayern are a force to be reconed with definately though.

italy rule nothing.

i mentioned timesle because i know how much statistical analysis he does on this matter and therefore how strongly he feels about this topic ;)

i think this was the right place to post, i had a look but frankly the new layout is a bit confusing.

apologies if it is the wrong section i did look :)

i just think it is an interesting point. something that is indeed overdue, and not more of a point and not a debate purely because it is a un deniable fact :)

huh!! other than Bayern is there any other German team that has triumth over the years in Europe? :confused: just asking cause idk!

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Re: wish i could see the look on timesle's face.

In the last 25 years Serie A has outperformed all other leagues in European football. That is a statistical fact. Serie A has also outperformed the Bundesliga on the Champions League since its relatively new creation. Again a fact. If you look at the last 5 years (the ones that matter), Serie A has outperformed the Bundesliga every year in the Champions League. And just to be clear, when I say outperform statistically, I'm talking about the UEFA points earned for the respective league, nothing more.

Then why has the Bundesliga overtaken Serie A on the famous UEFA coefficient? Simple... UEFA grants the same amount of points to the Champions League as they do to Europa League. Why? They don't even know.

As an example; Shakhtar Donetsk earned more co-efficient points for Ukraine than Barcelona did for Spain in 2009, when they both won their respective European competitions. Why? Because the Europa League is longer and more matches are played, therefore more points are up for grabs.

Now, I'm not defending Serie A or bashing the Bundesliga. To be perfectly honest Serie A is a distant memory of the invincible league it once was. And the Bundesliga has done something unprecedented by doing a symbolic reset and start over with all kinds of youth programs that are now paying its dividends. Since Juventus's downfall, Serie A has been on a downward spiral that doesn't seem will be stopping any time soon. Sure, Inter won everything last year, but how have the rest faired? It wasn't 10 years ago when you could state that a mid table team from Serie A was vastly superior than its similar in other leagues. But boy, how that's changed...

However, I still find it illogical that Serie A lose a spot to the Bundesliga in the Champions League when they have consistently outperformed them in the last 5 years in this competition. Europa League is considered a lesser competion (when comparing to the Champions League) and the point system should reflect this.

By the way, La Liga will lose around 9000 points next season and the Bundesliga around 6000. That means that the Bundesliga could be gunning for the second place in a few more years if things continue this path.

I hope no one takes this the wrong way, as it is only a rant against the UEFA coefficient and not against any league. Peace.

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Re: wish i could see the look on timesle's face.

UEFA ranks 4 EPL teams in the top 6 ranked teams

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method4/trank2011.html

I never realised Chelsea are ranked higher than Barca!

liverpool better than arsenal' date=' inter, madrid......lol. dont need to say anymore. chelsea second in the world but not even close to second in THEIR COUNTRY. we could go on all day :rolleyes:

huh!! other than Bayern is there any other German team that has triumth over the years in Europe? :confused: just asking cause idk!

if somebody more knowledgeable than me could provide some stats for this / if already out there maybe use the search tool could be nice :)

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Re: wish i could see the look on timesle's face.

On an equally more serious point, UEFA treat the Europa League just as important as the Champions League when it comes to dishing out points.

This rather strange co-efficient formula has basically rewarded teams with a comparable number of points.

You could argue that greater weight should be placed on the Champions League but try telling Shakhtar Donetsk that.

Shakhtar Donetsk earned more co-efficient points for Ukraine , as has been mentioned above, than Barcelona did for Spain in 2009 when these two teams won the UEFA Cup and Champions League Cup respectively. Barcelona beat Lyon, Bayern Munich, Chelsea and Manchester United on their way to glory, Shakhtar overcame the likes of CSKA Moscow, Marseille, Dynamo Kyiv and Werder Bremen.

In fact if you look at how clubs from Italy and Germany have faired in both competitions you will be stunned and it does seem harsh that Italian clubs have been heavily penalised for treating the Europa League with perhaps a little contempt. A quick glance at how Italian and German clubs have performed during the past 5 years in both competitions brings this home.

Europa League

06/07 – Only one Italian team reaches last 16, two German clubs in last 8, one in semi-finals.

07/08 – One Italian team and one German team make semis, but four German squads in last 16, to Italy’s one.

08/09 – One Italian team in quarters, two German sides in semis and one in final.

09/10 – Only one Italian team reaches last 16, two Germans in last 8, one in semi-finals.

10/11 – No Italian teams progress past last 32, one German side reaches last 16.

Champions League

06/07 - Only one German team, Bayern, got out of the groups. FC Hollywood were beaten in the quarters by Milan. Three Italian sides reached the last 16, two reached the quarter-finals, and one won the competition – Milan.

07/08 – Only one German team, Schalke, got out of the groups. Schalke were beaten in the quarters by Barcelona. Three Italians reached the last 16, one reached the quarter-finals.

08/09 – Only one German team, Bayern, got out of the groups. Bayern were beaten in the quarters by Barcelona. Three Italians reached the last 16, and all were eliminated.

09/10 – Two German teams reached the last 16, one of whom was eliminated. Bayern progressed to the final where they were beaten by a Serie A side. Three Italians reached the last 16, two of whom were eliminated. One won the competition - Inter

10/11 – Two German teams reach last 16, three Italian teams reach last 16.

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Re: wish i could see the look on timesle's face.

But Serie A had a natural advantage over the Bundesliga in the CL. They had 1 more spot. You are comparing the achievements of Serie A teams with those of Bundeliga teams but ignore that it`s easier to outperform a league if you do not have the same numbers of teams in said competition.

The Bundesliga actually had 4 teams in the CL in 2000/2001 and 2001/02. In those years Bayern won the CL and Leverkusen reached the final in 2002. But we lost the 4th spot to England for the same reason Serie A is losing their 4th spot now. The other teams - mainly in the Uefa Cup - didn`t perform well. But the Premier League has shown that they deserved it AFTER they got it. And I think the Bundesliga has a good chance to do the same. Not only does a CL spot give an additional chance to play in the CL - it also brings in more money which gives teams more financial strength.

Just think about it: how high are the chances that Italian teams will get 3 teams past the group stage if they only have 3 CL spots (like the Bundesliga had so far). If the 3rd placed team plays against say Manchester City in the qualifying round you only have 2 teams in the group stage. And if one fails there you only got one team in the k.o. stages.

Once you only have three teams in the CL you will realize how hard it is to outperm a league in the CL which has more CL spots. And there are a lot of bonus points which you get in the CL...

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Re: wish i could see the look on timesle's face.

You could argue that greater weight should be placed on the Champions League but try telling Shakhtar Donetsk that.

Shakhtar Donetsk earned more co-efficient points for Ukraine ' date=' as has been mentioned above, than Barcelona did for Spain in 2009 when these two teams won the UEFA Cup and Champions League Cup respectively. Barcelona beat Lyon, Bayern Munich, Chelsea and Manchester United on their way to glory, Shakhtar overcame the likes of CSKA Moscow, Marseille, Dynamo Kyiv and Werder Bremen.[/quote']

But the points an individual team gains is more important for seeding. Shakhtar earned points in the Europa League which gave them a better seeding in the CL group stage and hence a better chance to advance past the group stage. They were in the 2nd pot when the groups were drawn and got Arsenal and two easier teams. They managed to beat Arsenal to second place and have now beaten Roma in their away leg.

The Ukrainian league is however still ranked far below the Spanish league.

So how can the example of Shakhtar show that the uefa coefficient doesn`t work? On the contrary, I would say that it makes perfect sense and is absolutely fair. The current formula prevents that the CL becomes a closed shop. The only fans who think that Shakhtar shouldn`t play in the CL-k.o-stages are Roma fans I guess ;-)

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Re: wish i could see the look on timesle's face.

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That's the kind I'm looking when thinking about this topic. :D

However I think it's fully deserved that Germany gained the 4th CL spot - even if the Italian teams have been better in CL, respectively more Italian teams reached higher stages in the knockout phase. As Holzbein rightly said: They had one spot more.

And I might to add that the Serie A had more teams more often in the CL. In the last 5 years Inter, Roma and Milan have participated in CL group stage 4 times at least, whilst in Germany only two teams - Bayern and Bremen - participated 4 times in CL in the last 5 years. Of course this is as well a result of the additional CL starting spot. But nevertheless those teams get more money and a higher reputation due to Champions league football. So it's easier for these teams to get better players as they can offer the better perspective.

I also don't like the attitude of some teams not to rate the Europa League very high. It's of course their decision how they represent themselves in this competition. But seeing that Juventus - a team with a big name in history - couldn't achieve to win one single match in the group stage looks really poor to me.

That's a reason for me why EL successes in the UEFA country ranking shouldn't be rated less than CL successes. The Europa League already is far too underrated and underpaid. Of course it's nicer to see the top clubs playing in the CL, but it's a bad thing in my eyes that the teams hardly earn something in the Europa League unless they reach the semi finals whilst in the CL the teams already earn lots of (TV) money for reaching the group stage.

And why should victories in the CL being worth more points for the country ranking than victories in the EL. After all in both competitions the quality of the teams is (more or less) the same. The top clubs of each league play in the CL, the "second best" clubs play in the EL. So IMO a success for a team like Shakhtar in EL isn't worth less (for the UEFA country ranking) than a success of Barca in CL. Maybe individual successes like the winning of a competition should be rated higher. As far as I know Inter only got 1 point for winning in the final and didn't get any more points for winning the whole competition. This could be improved a bit. But in general the country ranking is good as it is. And the Italian teams should now take the EL more seriously if they don't want to get caught by France.

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Re: wish i could see the look on timesle's face.

But seeing that Juventus - a team with a big name in history - couldn't achieve to win one single match in the group stage looks really poor to me.

ill repeat that to emphasise: Juventus COULDN'T win.

they are no longer a top team. i don't think they didnt take the compeition seriously, even if they did they wouldn't win it. therefore they are now no longer a big club.

however interesting statement here: i think england deserve 5 spots.

we have at least 5, maybe 6 teams who are of champions league quality and are actually big names to get very close to the final.

man united, arsenal say no more clearly deserve spots.

tottenham, man city. they are big teams and as spurs have shown, they aren't teams that would be happy to just get out the group stage. they are in it to win it.

chelsea, despite a poor season they are better then the likes of roma and copenhagen. i think they desereve a spot despite a poor one off season.

anybody like to debate this?

i think 6 is too much and pointless but 5 would be of real use and value.

on a side note, im glad you didn't take offence to the "look on your face" part, for some reason after posting i started to regret it and thought you would be slightly offended !

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Re: wish i could see the look on timesle's face.

ill repeat that to emphasise: Juventus COULDN'T win.

they are no longer a top team. i don't think they didnt take the compeition seriously' date=' even if they did they wouldn't win it. therefore they are now no longer a big club. [/quote']

So - in order not to go too off topic - why should Buffon and Chiellini keep their 94 rating? They are currently 7th in league and - as mentioned - dropped out of the EL group without winning a match. I know I ask this question without regarding their personal performance, but without CL football 94 is too high. If you exclude Ribery, 94 is the highest rating in the Bundesliga currently!

however interesting statement here: i think england deserve 5 spots.

we have at least 5' date=' maybe 6 teams who are of champions league quality and are actually big names to get very close to the final.

man united, arsenal say no more clearly deserve spots.

tottenham, man city. they are big teams and as spurs have shown, they aren't teams that would be happy to just get out the group stage. they are in it to win it.

chelsea, despite a poor season they are better then the likes of roma and copenhagen. i think they desereve a spot despite a poor one off season.

anybody like to debate this?

i think 6 is too much and pointless but 5 would be of real use and value.[/quote']

I agree here. ManUnited, Arsenal and Chelsea are teams that always should be able to reach the knockout stage at the CL. ManCity's strategy to buy players for huge amounts seems to work finally and they are of course better than current participating teams of lower leagues. Tottenham is doing not too bad either and though Liverpool is currently a bit weak they are at least still playing in the EL.

So yes, I agree, England would deserve a 5th CL spot. But on the other hand you also have to look at the smaller leagues. Though having almost no chance I think every nation deserves at least one spot with which they have the chance to qualify.

So all in all I think it's fine as it is currently with the top 4 teams of the top 3 leagues have the chance to qualify and so on.

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Re: wish i could see the look on timesle's face.

So - in order not to go too off topic - why should Buffon and Chiellini keep their 94 rating? They are currently 7th in league and - as mentioned - dropped out of the EL group without winning a match. I know I ask this question without regarding their personal performance' date=' but without CL football 94 is too high. If you exclude Ribery, 94 is the highest rating in the Bundesliga currently!

this isn't off topic, i started it anyway but i was going to say the exact same thing. chielinni 94. terry 94. how is that fair ? terry is quality and ok he dropped but chiellini is nowhere near his level.

I agree here. ManUnited, Arsenal and Chelsea are teams that always should be able to reach the knockout stage at the CL. ManCity's strategy to buy players for huge amounts seems to work finally and they are of course better than current participating teams of lower leagues. Tottenham is doing not too bad either and though Liverpool is currently a bit weak they are at least still playing in the EL.

So yes, I agree, England would deserve a 5th CL spot. But on the other hand you also have to look at the smaller leagues. Though having almost no chance I think every nation deserves at least one spot with which they have the chance to qualify.

So all in all I think it's fine as it is currently with the top 4 teams of the top 3 leagues have the chance to qualify and so on.

i agree people have said why give copenhagen a chance we know they can't win !

thats stupid every country deserves at least 1 spot, otherwise you can never improve :(

anyway one thing that is true is now germany has a 4th spot will any of these teams really compete seriously other than bayern ?

teams like dortmund, leverkusen how will they fare ? be interesting to see.

mainz are high up in the table but have no european heritage compared to the big english and spanish names. it would certainly be nice to be able to see these big teams play the "minnows."

i say this because i actually think people will start to rate the german league better as they will do pretty well, and play attacking football :)

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Re: wish i could see the look on timesle's face.

i agree people have said why give copenhagen a chance we know they can't win !

thats stupid every country deserves at least 1 spot' date=' otherwise you can never improve :(

anyway one thing that is true is now germany has a 4th spot will any of these teams really compete seriously other than bayern ?

teams like dortmund, leverkusen how will they fare ? be interesting to see.

mainz are high up in the table but have no european heritage compared to the big english and spanish names. it would certainly be nice to be able to see these big teams play the "minnows."

i say this because i actually think people will start to rate the german league better as they will do pretty well, and play attacking football :)[/quote']

Leverkusen and especially Dortmund have good chances to establish in the top 4 of Germany. Both have good balanced squads with young players and enough depth and both have a good management. Dortmund furthermore has a big stadium which is always filled. Very good presuppositions to become regular CL participants.

Of course I'd like to see a second German team beside Bayern being strong enough to compete seriously in the CL, but on the other hand I like the current balanced Bundesliga (though Dortmund has a huge lead - I don't think this will be the normal case in future). I really don't want to have Spanish circumstances with two teams almost always ending first and second. It is cut both ways.

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