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My crusade to counter the 4-2-3-1


Dashwolf

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I have been managing Valencia for 3 seasons now, and I have never beaten the league leader, Real Madrid. Despite the manager constantly using only the 4-2-3-1 formation, he has been cruising to the league titles. League's 2nd strongest team, Barcelona who uses the 4-3-1-2 also only managed a draw against Real Madrid.

I read alot and have been using the search on countering the 4-3-1-2 but it seems that none of the suggested solutions has worked. So, this time hopefully, I will add more results to this thread as a helpful reference to others who suffers the same predicament. Please suggest ideas for me to beat this dreaded formation!

First off, introducing Real Madrid's squad, the team to beat.

RM.jpg

A quality team, with the average team rating of 93-95 using the dreaded 4-2-3-1.

(image is showing only his main starters)

My Valencia squad that is filled with german pride!

val.jpg

A team that I have built around youths and risers with a average team rating of 92-94.

The blacked out player is Cavani whom I am securing a transfer deal for him with a much needed left back, Marcelo who should be flying in within days.

My past encounters:

I have also tried 5-3-2 in the first season in an attempt to cut off the wing plays of Ronaldo but it did not work out well.

3-5-2 vs 4-2-3-1

Suggested by Ricchi in the thread:

http://forum.soccermanager.com/showpost.php?p=1494751&postcount=4

Both with slightly different team instructions but the clear similarities was I lost out on possession. Shots were pretty even for both teams which indicate that this matchup favors the 4-2-3-1.

RM1.jpg

RM2.jpg

4-5-1 vs 4-2-3-1

Suggested by Sir Metz in his guide:

http://forum.soccermanager.com/showpost.php?p=186448&postcount=2

This was probably the best result I ever achieved against Real Madrid. This gave me possession and shots but does not seem to be a definite win as Sir Metz has also written that these 2 formations counter each other. By far, the most successful formation against the 4-2-3-1, perhaps refinement of the game tactics?

RM3.jpg

RM4.jpg

4-4-2(Diamond) vs 4-2-3-1

Suggested by Gunnersfreak in the thread:

http://forum.soccermanager.com/showpost.php?p=1424640&postcount=5

Lost out on possession and shots, a park the bus tactic leading to a draw at best, which I achieved but eventually losing out on penalties.

RM5.jpg

4-3-1-2 vs 4-2-3-1

The league's 2nd strongest team, Barcelona using the 4-3-1-2 against Real Madrid, coming away with only a draw. However the stats indicate an extremely 1 sided game.

FCB.jpg

5-4-1 vs 4-2-3-1

Suggested by zwlim87 in this thread.

However, due to a glitch, the first 60mins were played in standard 4-4-2. 5-4-1 formation was implemented only at 60min mark.

Due to an incomplete test of this formation against the 4-2-3-1, I will use this tactic again in the next league game against Real Madrid. I will update this thread when the time comes.

charitys3.jpg

Any Suggestions?

I'm racked my brains for the past 2 seasons and have not come to a solution yet. Help me in this 3rd season with your idea on how to beat the 4-2-3-1 please! :)

I'll add more results here as the season comes along. Hopefully I get some new ideas against the 4-2-3-1, as the next game against Real Madrid is in 3 days.

PS: I will try zwlim87's suggestion from the thread next:

http://forum.soccermanager.com/showthread.php?t=94499

I will post the results, but seeing Barcelona's 4-3-1-2 have failed, I wonder if I can succeed?

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Re: My crusade to counter the 4-2-3-1

From personal experience I know 3-5-2 gets wacked by 4-2-3-1 every time...

I have done a lot of research on countering 4-2-3-1 also, and I think you have used the best tactic already....4-5-1 Defensive. General consensus is that you should win the game if you win possession, and both times you played 4-5-1 you have been unlucky not to win - and his team is better - so surely 4-5-1 has done the trick!? So I say for sure....stick with that.

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Re: My crusade to counter the 4-2-3-1

From personal experience I know 3-5-2 gets wacked by 4-2-3-1 every time...

I have done a lot of research on countering 4-2-3-1 also' date=' and I think you have used the best tactic already....4-5-1 Defensive. General consensus is that you should win the game if you win possession, and both times you played 4-5-1 you have been unlucky not to win - and his team is better - so surely 4-5-1 has done the trick!? So I say for sure....stick with that.[/quote']

Well, 4-5-1 was just barely doing the job, nowhere near convincing hence the open discussion here.

Bear in mind, I'm not trying to just get by hoping for a draw. I'm aiming for a definite win to have a real chance at winning the league. And I need some guidance on the optimal tactics settings as well.

If i just wanted to get by on 1 match, i could have gone "omgzar halp me with this formation" but I've gone through the effort of making a detailed post to help others whom might have similar problems as well. Why not engage in a more constructive manner? :)

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Re: My crusade to counter the 4-2-3-1

Well' date=' 4-5-1 was just barely doing the job, nowhere near convincing hence the open discussion here.

Bear in mind, I'm not trying to just get by hoping for a draw. I'm aiming for a definite win to have a real chance at winning the league. And I need some guidance on the optimal tactics settings as well.

If i just wanted to get by on 1 match, i could have gone "omgzar halp me with this formation" but I've gone through the effort of making a detailed post to help others whom might have similar problems as well. Why not engage in a more constructive manner? :)[/quote']

You need advice not a miracle, his team is way better than yours (Average 95/96 vs 93/92?)...you played 4-5-1 twice...away I might add - and were very unlucky not to win either of those games...you nailed him on possession, which in SM is normally 80% of the result.

If you put a team average of say what's yours? 93? Against 95...and got those stats, and a draw...id take that any day of the week, and so should you...if you keep playing that against his standard 4-2-3-1 I expect you to win more than he does.

Don't get the hump with me because im stating the obvious...and your inability to beat a manager that plays the same tactics for 2 seasons running! :D

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Re: My crusade to counter the 4-2-3-1

I always use Sir Metz's 4-5-1 against 4-2-3-1 and 9 times out of 10 it works for me....unlike you I use normal tackling, attacking mentality, mixed passing, mixed attacking, normal tempo, pressing all over, counter-attack, tight marking, playmaker and target man.

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Re: My crusade to counter the 4-2-3-1

I always use Sir Metz's 4-5-1 against 4-2-3-1 and 9 times out of 10 it works for me....unlike you I use normal tackling' date=' attacking mentality, mixed passing, mixed attacking, normal tempo, pressing all over, counter-attack, tight marking, playmaker and target man.[/quote']

Do you use 4-5-1 defensive or normal?

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Re: My crusade to counter the 4-2-3-1

You are not the only one struggling my friend!

4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 Wingers are two of the best overall tactics.

Whenever i play 4-2-3-1 i also use 4-5-1 (not the defensive one),with hard tackling, attacking mentality and offside trap, the possession is usually very even and most times i get a draw, sometimes a win and the ocasional loss, it is the most consistent, the advice youre getting to stick with it is a good one!

Also, there are some tactics that havent been tried out extensively, namely 5-3-2D, 5-2-3 and couple more offensive ones, so i think the 4-2-3-1 "problem" is not case closed yet.

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Re: My crusade to counter the 4-2-3-1

Hi,maybe u can try this.(4-2-3-1)

---------------------------Neuer(Cap)---------

Maicon(Front)-----------Pepe-------------Hummels-------------Schmelzer

----------------------Alonso(back)-----------Song(back)------------

Nani(CK)(front)-------------Ozil/Schwein(FK)(Front)------------Nasri(front)-

-----------------------------Higuain(Targetman)-----------

plays offside trap,soft tackling,c.attack.targetman n short passing......

U may considers this as u have a lower rating... i think below formation may suits u better....(4-5-1)

--------------------------Neuer(Cap)-----------

----------------Pepe--------Hummels------------Badstuber------------

------------------------Alonso(back)(CK)----------------

Nani(front)------------Schweinsteiger(playmaker)-----Song(back)-Ozil(Front)

--------------------------Sanchez/Nasri-----(front)------------

----------------------------Higuain------------------------

Plays slow tempo,c.attacking.plays attacking n short passing........

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Re: My crusade to counter the 4-2-3-1

Hi' date='maybe u can try this.(4-2-3-1)

---------------------------Neuer(Cap)---------

Maicon(Front)-----------Pepe-------------Hummels-------------Schmelzer

----------------------Alonso(back)-----------Song(back)------------

Nani(CK)(front)-------------Ozil/Schwein(FK)(Front)------------Nasri(front)-

-----------------------------Higuain(Targetman)-----------

plays offside trap,soft tackling,c.attack.targetman n short passing......

U may considers this as u have a lower rating... i think below formation may suits u better....(4-5-1)

--------------------------Neuer(Cap)-----------

----------------Pepe--------Hummels------------Badstuber------------

------------------------Alonso(back)(CK)----------------

Nani(front)------------Schweinsteiger(playmaker)-----Song(back)-Ozil(Front)

--------------------------Sanchez/Nasri-----(front)------------

----------------------------Higuain------------------------

Plays slow tempo,c.attacking.plays attacking n short passing........[/quote']

sorry grammar mistakes!

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Re: My crusade to counter the 4-2-3-1

Any Suggestions?

I'm racked my brains for the past 2 seasons and have not come to a solution yet. Help me in this 3rd season with your idea on how to beat the 4-2-3-1 please! :)

I'll add more results here as the season comes along. Hopefully I get some new ideas against the 4-2-3-1, as the next game against Real Madrid is in 3 days.

PS: I will try zwlim87's suggestion from the thread next:

http://forum.soccermanager.com/showthread.php?t=94499

I will post the results, but seeing Barcelona's 4-3-1-2 have failed, I wonder if I can succeed?

The guy managing barcelona is using different tactics..So u may consider to use it..previously when i posted in another thread,others also managed to win 1-0..

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Re: My crusade to counter the 4-2-3-1

Thanks for the ideas guys!

I know I'm managing the inferior team but hey, beating the better team via better tactics is the point of SM no? :D

Always up for the challenge for changing and experimenting with tactics.

Just a question on using men behind the ball for a 4-5-1, wouldn't it be useful since you're packing the midfield, making the team to try to stop the ball in the MF line and a second time and the DF line so to speak? (personally i used the option in an attacking formation, but would it work here?)

@zwlim87

Your 4-5-1 looks like a 3-5-1-1 ? haha, a mistake somewhere?

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Re: My crusade to counter the 4-2-3-1

sorry grammar mistakes!

sorry,it looks like this..(5-4-1)

-------------------------Neuer--------------

--------pepe-----hummels-------badstuber-------

----------------alonso-----------

Nani(Front------Schweinsteiger----Song(Back)-----Ozil(front)

---------------Sanchez or nasri----------

------------Higuain-------------

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Re: My crusade to counter the 4-2-3-1

Well' date=' 4-5-1 was just barely doing the job, nowhere near convincing hence the open discussion here.

Bear in mind, I'm not trying to just get by hoping for a draw. I'm aiming for a definite win to have a real chance at winning the league. And I need some guidance on the optimal tactics settings as well.

If i just wanted to get by on 1 match, i could have gone "omgzar halp me with this formation" but I've gone through the effort of making a detailed post to help others whom might have similar problems as well. Why not engage in a more constructive manner? :)[/quote']

Hi! post ur latest result here soon!

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Re: My crusade to counter the 4-2-3-1

Hi! post ur latest result here soon!

not so fast' date=' the match is tomorrow

news update:

while experimenting with the 5-4-1

I noticed that nani and ozil can't play in the wingback positions so i have to swap them out, had some minor edits and it became like this, essentially similar i would think. hopefully i did not mess up the tactics instructions, followed your suggestions and giving it a whirl in the 4-2-3-1 blender tomorrow.

p:s higuain got himself a 1 match suspension. (dammit)

[img']http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y15/Dashwolf/SM/RM/pre.jpg[/img]

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Re: My crusade to counter the 4-2-3-1

Results for the Charity Shield just came in.

I am bewildered and amused at the results.

Because I was fairly certain that I have set my tactics in advanced and even had the substitution tactics created. However, due to a system bug (or my negligence?!) the starting formation was defaulted to a 4-4-2 which I never used.:eek:

This resulted in the match getting played in a 4-4-2 formation before switching to the planned tactics at the 60min substitution mark. A few things I can draw from this was that the formation worked, because the goal was scored after the changes were made. At the same time, i thank my lucky stars that my team held in together in that 4-4-2 formation for 60mins.

Due to an incomplete test of this formation against the 4-2-3-1, I will use this tactic again in the next league game against Real Madrid. I will update this thread when the time comes.

This is what I call running away with a win!:P

c1.jpg

c2.jpg

c3.jpg

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Re: My crusade to counter the 4-2-3-1

not so fast' date=' the match is tomorrow

news update:

while experimenting with the 5-4-1

I noticed that nani and ozil can't play in the wingback positions so i have to swap them out, had some minor edits and it became like this, essentially similar i would think. hopefully i did not mess up the tactics instructions, followed your suggestions and giving it a whirl in the 4-2-3-1 blender tomorrow.

p:s higuain got himself a 1 match suspension. (dammit)

[img']http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y15/Dashwolf/SM/RM/pre.jpg[/img]

he must be real mad to let u earn a draw...

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