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Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........


M.B.Diouf
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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

I am maybe in the minority here and can see SoccerWiki actually being a good tool for keeping the ratings up to date (maybe that's the wrong word, I hope most people can see benefits but ONLY if it's used in the way the community wants it to be, after all (your own words SM) this is a COMMUNITY driven tool, if you don't engage or listen to the community they won't use it! Benefits of using the system should be highlighted, this has not been done as far as I can see, leading to anger and frustration.

It does appear that some thought has been given to the way the system works. I'm actually going to discuss a couple of good points and bad points here as I believe there are both. Let us start with a few positives. I'm going to throw the word "****" into this sentence, not for any real reason and not in an offence manor, simply because I know it will now flag up this post to the SM team! I will happily take the warning if it gets SM attention and some answers/comment.

Positives about SW.

It gives the community a much needed forum to suggest rating changes (although it's not working as it needs to be at the moment, see negatives).

Certain leagues are "capped" in terms of the maximum possible rating you can submit, this will reduce abuse potential.

Users getting reputation over time giving their suggestions more weight.

Negatives

Can only add one bit of information at at time.

No real communication from SM on how it actually works and the benefits for using it (I would have expected some announcements / rewards for submitting accurate data).

It's not ready yet, by this I mean the community has not yet had chance to submit a statistically relevant amount of data for SM to be able to decide who is and isn't abusing the system. It also means SM cannot be confident of any rating changes submitted and therefore cannot port any into the game.

No beta testing phase, am sure there are plenty of active users on here that SM could recruit and offer rewards, these people would also be able to reflect the views of the community to SM, there is a huge communication gulf at the moment. I am personally sick to the death of semi automated SM staff responses to questions which they don't answer or answer in riddles.

No ability to actually see the ratings others have submitted, there should be an ability to vote on potential changes, which brings me to the next point...

We never know which players currently have live votes and which haven't been touched.

As mentioned previously by yourselves about data being transferred daily based on rating submissions, if this is the case then where are these changes? I am certain many players (I'll use the example above, Sterling) will have had a lot of votes for a rating increase.

I can only suggest a rating change of +5, in some cases this isn't sufficient, the potential rating increase allowed to be submitted should be proportional to his current rating and league, I.E a 70 rated player based in the EPL should have potential for at least a +10 if not more, once he goes to 80 this should drop down to say 5 as it is now. Obviously a 70 rated player in Scottish division 3 should have a lower max rating threshold. The system is halfway there in this sense.

Conclusions

It is generally accepted that a review schedule is the preferred method of reviewing players as opposed to a random schedule where nothing seems to be getting done. Using SW as part of this process would IMO be better, the community could focus their efforts on certain leagues and have a "window" to vote on proposed changes to that league, then after say 1 week the changes for the entire league (or leagues) go live. This would reduce player hogging by keeping rises for a minimum amount of time as before and also would result in many more votes for the players under review and also accurate ratings.

Final word

One last word to everyone here, it's easy to knock something new and people are often opposed to change, SM have certainly made this worse in they way they have gone about this, however, instead of simply slagging off the system, insulting others and telling SM you aren't going to renew IMO it would be more fruitful to suggest how the new system can be tweaked / developed so we can turn it into something better than what we had, or at the very least similar. We can only achieve this by proposing rational changes / suggestions to SM and the reasoning behind those suggestions.

PS, I don't post often but don't let the post count fool you into thinking I haven't been a very active Gold member for a number of years and have been with this game pretty much from the start.

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

It is generally accepted that a review schedule is the preferred method of reviewing players as opposed to a random schedule where nothing seems to be getting done. Using SW as part of this process would IMO be better' date=' the community could focus their efforts on certain leagues and have a "window" to vote on proposed changes to that league, then after say 1 week the changes for the entire league (or leagues) go live. This would reduce player hogging by keeping rises for a minimum amount of time as before and also would result in many more votes for the players under review and also accurate ratings.

[/quote']

This is something SM should highly consider if they persist with SW.

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

when the ratings change from italy will continue to be reviewed?

They will be reviewed very soon or later, a lot later or a lot sooner and not before.

it really does depend on the ratio of 3:1, with 3 being three and 1 being one, they must be ratioed together and never apart, apart from when they are and when they cant be.

then sm will need to take into account what they all had for breakfast as they cant be reviewed when more than 3 dev's have had cornflakes or less than 2 have had weetabix, one must have had museli though.

i think this should be sufficient in answering your question.

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

Now that the reviews are stopped, at least now i don't have any excuse to go login into SM, the only daily entertainment was seeing your player ratings go up, so that my team could face some team that has players with 92/93 ratings that SM should had dropped long time ago, but here i am, with my 90/91 players relying only on that ****/no sense match engine to entertain me a bit.

Some said that people could be more specific and helpful, ok, i say they should redo the match engine so that it makes more sense because that **** doesn't make any, it's all random and some little bit player ratings.

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

I am maybe in the minority here and can see SoccerWiki actually being a good tool for keeping the ratings up to date (maybe that's the wrong word' date=' I hope most people can see benefits but ONLY if it's used in the way the community wants it to be, after all (your own words SM) this is a COMMUNITY driven tool, if you don't engage or listen to the community they won't use it! Benefits of using the system should be highlighted, this has not been done as far as I can see, leading to anger and frustration.

It does appear that some thought has been given to the way the system works. I'm actually going to discuss a couple of good points and bad points here as I believe there are both. Let us start with a few positives. I'm going to throw the word "****" into this sentence, not for any real reason and not in an offence manor, simply because I know it will now flag up this post to the SM team! I will happily take the warning if it gets SM attention and some answers/comment.

[b']Positives about SW.[/b]

It gives the community a much needed forum to suggest rating changes (although it's not working as it needs to be at the moment, see negatives).

Certain leagues are "capped" in terms of the maximum possible rating you can submit, this will reduce abuse potential.

Users getting reputation over time giving their suggestions more weight.

It seems we can now submit more than one rating at a time (finally).

Negatives

No real communication from SM on how it actually works and the benefits for using it (I would have expected some announcements / rewards for submitting accurate data).

It's not ready yet, by this I mean the community has not yet had chance to submit a statistically relevant amount of data for SM to be able to decide who is and isn't abusing the system. It also means SM cannot be confident of any rating changes submitted and therefore cannot port any into the game.

No beta testing phase, am sure there are plenty of active users on here that SM could recruit and offer rewards, these people would also be able to reflect the views of the community to SM, there is a huge communication gulf at the moment. I am personally sick to the death of semi automated SM staff responses to questions which they don't answer or answer in riddles.

No ability to actually see the ratings others have submitted, there should be an ability to vote on potential changes, which brings me to the next point...

We never know which players currently have live votes and which haven't been touched.

As mentioned previously by yourselves about data being transferred daily based on rating submissions, if this is the case then where are these changes? I am certain many players (I'll use the example above, Sterling) will have had a lot of votes for a rating increase.

I can only suggest a rating change of +5, in some cases this isn't sufficient, the potential rating increase allowed to be submitted should be proportional to his current rating and league, I.E a 70 rated player based in the EPL should have potential for at least a +10 if not more, once he goes to 80 this should drop down to say 5 as it is now. Obviously a 70 rated player in Scottish division 3 should have a lower max rating threshold. The system is halfway there in this sense.

Conclusions

It is generally accepted that a review schedule is the preferred method of reviewing players as opposed to a random schedule where nothing seems to be getting done. Using SW as part of this process would IMO be better, the community could focus their efforts on certain leagues and have a "window" to vote on proposed changes to that league, then after say 1 week the changes for the entire league (or leagues) go live. This would reduce player hogging by keeping rises for a minimum amount of time as before and also would result in many more votes for the players under review and also accurate ratings.

Final word

One last word to everyone here, it's easy to knock something new and people are often opposed to change, SM have certainly made this worse in they way they have gone about this, however, instead of simply slagging off the system, insulting others and telling SM you aren't going to renew IMO it would be more fruitful to suggest how the new system can be tweaked / developed so we can turn it into something better than what we had, or at the very least similar. We can only achieve this by proposing rational changes / suggestions to SM and the reasoning behind those suggestions.

PS, I don't post often but don't let the post count fool you into thinking I haven't been a very active Gold member for a number of years and have been with this game pretty much from the start.

I woudnt be worried about ur poor post count fella thats a very good post and post count means nowt on here :)

I agree with alot of what you have said its a well structured and good post however I to have been here for many years and you will no as well as I do this game has got worse and the bit iv underlined and bolded will never happen we could suggest what we want SM wont listen nor have they ever listend to suggestions bar one time but that was a pointless money making scam of pre owend customs:rolleyes:

Still a good post stick around..

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

Hi all,

Lot's of posts covering a variety of things and whilst we wont be able to answer each one and the various points raised, between all the new Devs we will really try to at least take in most of what is written here and we can use this knowledge to shape the game going forward - so please do keep your posts coming, especially the constructive ones :)

In taking data daily from the Wiki, the core concept of buying younger players before they improve has not changed and is still happening right across the game - albeit it is of course a little different now because daily changes reflect any changes made by the Wiki community rather than specified leagues being updated at a point in time. In this way, there is no 'waiting list' of leagues our end - we are as up to date as the Wiki as at any given day.

Eric

SM

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

Hi all' date='

Lot's of posts covering a variety of things and whilst we wont be able to answer each one and the various points raised, between all the new Devs we will really try to at least take in most of what is written here and we can use this knowledge to shape the game going forward - so please do keep your posts coming, especially the constructive ones :)

In taking data daily from the Wiki, the core concept of buying younger players before they improve has not changed and is still happening right across the game - albeit it is of course a little different now because daily changes reflect any changes made by the Wiki community rather than specified leagues being updated at a point in time. [b']In this way, there is no 'waiting list' of leagues our end - we are as up to date as the Wiki as at any given day. [/b]

Eric

SM

I'd say open a poll and let see what the user really want.

Old style league by league review or just random review.

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

Hi all' date='

Lot's of posts covering a variety of things and whilst we wont be able to answer each one and the various points raised, between all the new Devs we will really try to at least take in most of what is written here and we can use this knowledge to shape the game going forward - so please do keep your posts coming, especially the constructive ones :)

In taking data daily from the Wiki, the core concept of buying younger players before they improve has not changed and is still happening right across the game - albeit it is of course a little different now because daily changes reflect any changes made by the Wiki community rather than specified leagues being updated at a point in time. In this way, there is no 'waiting list' of leagues our end - we are as up to date as the Wiki as at any given day.

Eric

SM[/quote']

Thank you for that more detailed response. Could you/SM, in some way, explain why it was decided to change the review system in the first place, please?

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

I'm a player of another manager sort of game and interest in that game has fallen to the doldrums because there were too little changes and people left due to that or just moved off from it. I was delighted to have found SM a couple of years back and i though it was a much better game than the other one i was on.

I played a manager game called Xperteleven that suffered from the same. Perhaps, you're referring to this game?

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

Hi all' date='

Lot's of posts covering a variety of things and whilst we wont be able to answer each one and the various points raised, between all the new Devs we will really try to at least take in most of what is written here and we can use this knowledge to shape the game going forward - so please do keep your posts coming, especially the constructive ones :)

In taking data daily from the Wiki, the core concept of buying younger players before they improve has not changed and is still happening right across the game - albeit it is of course a little different now because daily changes reflect any changes made by the Wiki community rather than specified leagues being updated at a point in time. In this way, there is no 'waiting list' of leagues our end - we are as up to date as the Wiki as at any given day.

Eric

SM[/quote']

Thanks for the response, unfortunately it doesn't really answer any of our questions. Whist I understand you are taking data daily from the Wiki this is of very little use when you consider it's virtually impossible (and has been since the implementation of SoccerWiki) to actually change any data. If you are now saying this is community driven then how on earth do we actually end up with a rating change? You yourselves are no-longer doing it, there is the ability to submit a new rating (ok, that seems sensible) however there is NO option to actually vote on these changes, I can vote on all manor of useless things though, from the Chairman of bazinga united to the new physio picture for Paddy O'Guiness from the league of alcoholics yet there is no option to vote for any of the players rating changes suggested. The only rating changes I can see are the ones which have been made yourselves (up to a brief start on the Italian league (why decide to change the system Mid-review by the way? That IS crazy, I'd like to know whom decided this?) and a few new players in some random lower leagues. Are you seriously trying to convince us that the only data added since the 8th was the following?

Jeff FLOOD of Longford Town was edited. 13 December 2012

Philly GORMAN of Athlone Town was edited. 13 December 2012

Dane MASSEY of Dundalk was edited. 13 December 2012

Phenyo Kideo MONGALA of Orlando Pirates was edited. 12 December 2012

Boitumelo MAFOKO of Santos CT was edited. 12 December 2012

So my question is thus...

How are the ratings ever going to get updated and how are we ever going to be able to vote on them? (this is what you have said yourself should be happening when clearly there is no such voting option for player ratings). It seems ludicrous you have moved to a system which is clearly not ready for use. If it were these features would be available.

Also, I wanted to edit standard information for a lot of clubs as this appears to be missing, chairmen, club history etc. Yet I can only do 1 piece of information at a time, at this rate it will take until the year 2020 for the Wiki to be populated! It's been a year now and these problems are STILL not resolved.

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

what are peoples opinions if all the remaining Italian clubs, Germany, Spain & England were updated tomorrow/Saturday in one go?

It is a possibility they could be working on all the data of the top 5 to be transferred across in one go.

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

Does this mean that rating reviews for... say... the Italian league can happen anytime without prior notification and a worked out shedule? (unlike before...flexible indeed...SM just keeps on 'improving' !!)

PS: Can't fault the newly introduced positions. It seems okay once u get used to it altough I've got issues with this newly introduced loaning system.

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

what are peoples opinions if all the remaining Italian clubs' date=' Germany, Spain & England were updated tomorrow/Saturday in one go?

It is a possibility they could be working on all the data of the top 5 to be transferred across in one go.[/quote']

Yeah I'll hav no problems with that... A lot of players like Kagawa, Piszczek, Dante, Oscar etc should should have gone up now...

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

what are peoples opinions if all the remaining Italian clubs' date=' Germany, Spain & England were updated tomorrow/Saturday in one go?

It is a possibility they could be working on all the data of the top 5 to be transferred across in one go.[/quote']

If they decide to do that so they can be within the schedule back, it is good.

But the main concern here is the decision to removed the 'Next league to be review' table.

I think SM should not removed them in the first place.

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

If they decide to do that so they can be within the schedule back' date=' it is good.

But the main concern here is the decision to removed the 'Next league to be review' table.

I think SM should not removed them in the first place.[/quote']

well i think its gone now.

the suggestion is they can update any player from any league at random now, which is in one way good as it means you dont have to wait months for players to rise, but also it is random which has its negatives.

but id like to see some kind of structure to reviewing 'whole leagues' still as they could get desperately neglected again if 'the community' just concentrates on 'risers' to benefit there own sides.

another way i could see being an improved way is if they did it by continent or region. IE South america, so brazil, argentina, chile etc get done as a block. you could have Eastern europe zone (russia/ukraine etc), Mediterranean zone (Turkey,Greece, Cyprus etc), Scandinavian zone, Balkans, North & Central America etc etc. & of course keep the top 5 leagues as a block.

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

I think smaller leagues and teams will probably get neglected under this new system. I don't mind not knowing which league is being reviewed next but would prefer if they still reviewed on a league by league basis rather than just random changes from across the world.

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

I hate to say it....but I've just read back over the last couple of pages, and I am pretty sure I have basically read that the game has died for those people who enjoy the game for 'scouting obscure (as major) countries' to find risers to make money at small clubs to eventually overtake the people who manage the big clubs, buy the big name players .

I for one gave up playing the game (with one exception) when the review schedule became so "scatty" - I am sure people who also enjoy the scouting for risers will be walking away in their droves.

It should make the game easier for the players who just login once every three days, pick their stongest 11 then log out again - as compared to the riser hunters who login almost daily to buy and sell their risers, I know which I'd prefer to be using my site - but then I also know how much work goes into rating a country (I did two leagues a couple of years back, and SM adopted my exact ratings ;))

RIP Scouting! RIP SM! :)

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

As a manager of team since 2009 in SM,i think that the Soccermanager going to lose a lote of veteran managers,that can not get used to this new system of soccerwiki,scouts and strange player changes [ players with 10 min got +8 atc atc]

Too bad SM..

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

well i think its gone now.

And we can see many user against this changes.

the suggestion is they can update any player from any league at random now' date=' which is in one way good as it means you dont have to wait months for players to rise, but also it is random which has its negatives.[/quote']Well, we don't know exactly when the player gonna get reviewed. So, that is why people so against this changes. For me this changes only wanna make people keep checking on the SoccerWiki itself for the player that recently got rating change.
but id like to see some kind of structure to reviewing 'whole leagues' still as they could get desperately neglected again if 'the community' just concentrates on 'risers' to benefit there own sides.
I'd get it, SM depend heavily on SW to get the rating changes, and if no rating changes in SW that suffice the entire league, they will have hard job to reviewed the league, that's why they keep delayed it or pushed it outside the schedule.
another way i could see being an improved way is if they did it by continent or region. IE South america, so brazil, argentina, chile etc get done as a block. you could have Eastern europe zone (russia/ukraine etc), Mediterranean zone (Turkey,Greece, Cyprus etc), Scandinavian zone, Balkans, North & Central America etc etc. & of course keep the top 5 leagues as a block.
That's another way to look at it. But seeing the developer pretty keen on updating the database on daily basis, I doubt the continent or region idea will be taken seriously by them.

All I'm saying is, if they work within the schedule (based on the previous year/season reviewed), I don't think people will have problem with that. But after not only not updated the certain league, they decide to rake the whole schedule, removed it and 'upgrade' it to daily update basis.

What will happened if no one send the rating changes for some exotic league (China,Romania etc), will they never gonna be updated then?

Also, I pretty much doubt people watch all the football league across the world to keep things updated. I for one, not seeing them, but once I saw some exotic league gonna get reviewed in upcoming review I go to certain website to check some player that need the rating changed and then go to soccerwiki to send the ticket (?). If I don't know what league gonna get reviewed, how am I supposed to know when I need to send the ticket in the first place. Something just need something else to trigger it. For me, 'Next league to be review' table trigger some work I've been doing in the past - sending the rating ticket in SW.

And I'm pretty sure SW not gonna changed some player rating if only one user voted for the changed right? Then how this daily update thing gonna work? And please don't expect some miraculous thing like 1/3 SW user send the same ticket for the exact same player.

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

There's been quite a few posts on this thread around player/league updates and the answer to all this is that SM populates its player data from SoccerWiki and community of users there that keeps it up to date and reviews data as they see fit. SM pulls across this data on a daily basis reflecting all the changes that the users have been making.
All of the data on Soccer Manager is transferred over from the Soccer Wiki. The Soccer Wiki is a separate site and it is all community driven. Due to this data can be added or edited at any point and this is why there is no longer any schedule of transferring over data. This makes the system a lot more flexible.

So, now it's officially confirmed, SW is responsible for the last year's mess in reviews and for the downhill the reviews system is going (no schedule, random changes etc)...

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

Just realised I have approximately £45mill worth of risers in my one remaining team....with no idea if/when/how each individual will ever get reviewed as I know I won't be doing the work for SM whilst they make real life money off the back of of my suggestions!

The biggest issue with SoccerWiki is that idiots with NO football knowledge who support a successful team/player half way across the world will be trying to get THEIR favourite player uprated, without having looked at his stats or ever seen him play.

For example - if this system had been in place after the 2011 Charity Shield, Tom Cleverly would have beeen rated a 179 out of 100 based on the comments on that particular clubs thread from people all over the world who hadn't even seen the game.

Sad days for what used to be the best online football management game :)

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

My post has already been lost in the mess.

SM Devs. I am posting as someone who has been part of a gameworld that has had 80 active managers at all times since its inception 4+ years ago. 80 managers who log on everyday. 80 managers who've noticed trends before this forum has even come close to it, managers who've scouted the next big thing before the kid has laced his football boots up. We've analysed the game and in some cases, we've actually done work to improve the game.

With every change that has come, we've been tentative but tried to work around it however soccerwiki has really tested us for the reasons I mentioned in my earlier post. The charm of the game has gone and while I understand you have the perfect business model by charging people for SM but getting everything from SW, it's not a very fan-friendly one and at the end of the day isn't that was SM was supposed to be about? A site to alleviate boredom at work, a simple but well thought out game? I have screenshots of SM from 4 years ago and I really miss it. There've been many positive changes but this new ratings thing is just plain terrible.

The thing is you'll either ignore this or answer it with a businessy response because it doesn't matter what I say. It doesn't matter what someone who contributes heavily to this forum, as well as to the game (I do French and Dutch translations) thinks. Not when there's money to be made.

This is going to lead to SM probably being better for you, the Devs. For the people who make money from it. You'll probably get more users too. But you're essentially telling all the true fans who've stuck with the game since the beginning that their opinion is worthless and they're not needed.

Hopefully this doesn't kill the game entirely. I'm now going to go ask soccerwiiki to change Felipe Melo to a GK. Kyle Walker got a change to RM for playing one game there, Melo deserves similar treatment.

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