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Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........


M.B.Diouf
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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

SM Dev (Eric) posted this a few minutes ago:

http://forum.soccermanager.com/showthread.php?t=134195

(It says at the end that they will monitor any feedback, but the thread is closed, anw)

Basically it says many things that we already know or figured out, but also it explains in detail some others, like what's happening with the Soccerwiki and what their plans are.

The most important it says is that is now officially confirmed that they won't announce the leagues being reviewed and that there will be random "changes from across all the wiki countries on a daily basis"!

But i think the most important thing that still DON'T SAY AND DON'T CLARIFY, is about the ratings: Are SM going to continue to control and change themselves the ratings of the players, or do they plan to change this process too and let the SW decide, through voting??? It's something that it's STILL not clear... CAN WE HAVE A CLEAR ANSWER ON THIS, PLEASE?

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

SM Dev (Eric) posted this a few minutes ago:

http://forum.soccermanager.com/showthread.php?t=134195

(It says at the end that they will monitor any feedback' date=' but the thread is closed, anw)

Basically it says many things that we already know or figured out, but also it explains in detail some others, like what's happening with the Soccerwiki and what their plans are.

The most important it says is that is now officially confirmed that they won't announce the leagues being reviewed and that there will be random "[i']changes from across all the wiki countries on a daily basis[/i]"!

But i think the most important thing that still DON'T SAY AND DON'T CLARIFY, is about the ratings: Are SM going to continue to control and change themselves the ratings of the players, or do they plan to change this process too and let the SW decide, through voting??? It's something that it's STILL not clear... CAN WE HAVE A CLEAR ANSWER ON THIS, PLEASE?

Wiki users vote on data and votes are pooled.

Moderation - To make the voting system fair, the pooled votes are moderated by a system which takes into account various elements designed to ensure that data changes are done fairly and not due to particular biases of voters. Clearly it is not appropriate to discuss the mechanics of the moderation process beyond this as it may make the voting system unfair which would negate the purpose of the wiki communities efforts.

we vote, they moderate.

other key points:

The Wiki is now under full time development which should see the whole process get a lot slicker in the very near future

Will there be announcements of which countries are coming next? No

& finally

Overall, we expect that updates should happen more regularly and not limited to a particular region at a time. It does mean that you cant, following an announcement, go and buy young players from a country in the hope that they will rise ...

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

There will be many questions by users of this thread, ON THIS THREAD so I've copied SM Eric's Response here below:-

"Hi all,

A quick post about the Wiki, data updates and planned changes going forward as there has been a lot of posts around this and hopefully I can clear a few things up to help everyone's understanding of what is happening and, perhaps more importantly, what you can expect into the new year. We are listening to users on this forum which is why are tweaking what currently happens...

Now some of you will know some of this already but for those not as in the picture...

The Soccer Wiki is a tool to allow the community to decide amongst themselves on the data. Soccer Manager takes its data from the updates made by the community on the Soccer Wiki.

There are three stages to the process. Voting > Moderation > Live.

Voting - Wiki users vote on data and votes are pooled.

Moderation - To make the voting system fair, the pooled votes are moderated by a system which takes into account various elements designed to ensure that data changes are done fairly and not due to particular biases of voters. Clearly it is not appropriate to discuss the mechanics of the moderation process beyond this as it may make the voting system unfair which would negate the purpose of the wiki communities efforts.

Live - Once data has been successfully moderated, it goes onto the live list which is fed daily into the site.

The Wiki is now under full time development which should see the whole process get a lot slicker in the very near future. Essentially, we know alot of our users have commented on the schedule of updates and what we are moving towards is a system where the data is updated much more often than has previously been the case when we were cycling through the individual countries in the Wiki.

Why use a Wiki? So the Community can control the database and decide how the database should be

Will there be announcements of which countries are coming next? No - because we expect the daily updates will reflect changes from across all the wiki countries on a daily basis. Overall, we expect that updates should happen more regularly and not limited to a particular region at a time. It does mean that you cant, following an announcement, go and buy young players from a country in the hope that they will rise ... but it does mean that this process will still very much exist as a core concept of the game, it is just that it will refer to a wider base of countries.

When? - We expect the improvements we are making to the moderation and live process to take shape in the next few weeks with the whole feel of the relationship between the Wiki and SM getting slicker and with more daily updates across this time.

It's an evolving process and we'll monitor feedback here to see how we can improve it.

Hope this helps.

Eric"

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

Ok most posters on this thread are concerned about the slowness of reviews & this statement does seem very positive about speed of reviews:-

"The Wiki is now under full time development which should see the whole process get a lot slicker in the very near future ...... where the data is updated much more often than has previously been the case ...... we expect that updates should happen more regularly"

THIS SOUNDS VERY POSITIVE

:)

"We expect the improvements we are making to the moderation and live process to take shape in the next few weeks with the whole feel of the relationship between the Wiki and SM getting slicker and with more daily updates across this time"

Slightly less positive "next few weeks" but I won't grumble

:)

Ok that's very positive and I'll leave this as a positive post before moving to a negative aspect.

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

Ok most posters on this thread are concerned about the slowness of reviews & this statement does seem very positive about speed of reviews:-

"The Wiki is now under full time development which should see the whole process get a lot slicker in the very near future ...... where the data is updated much more often than has previously been the case ...... we expect that updates should happen more regularly"

THIS SOUNDS VERY POSITIVE

:)

"We expect the improvements we are making to the moderation and live process to take shape in the next few weeks with the whole feel of the relationship between the Wiki and SM getting slicker and with more daily updates across this time"

Slightly less positive "next few weeks" but I won't grumble

:)

Ok that's very positive and I'll leave this as a positive post before moving to a negative aspect.

come on it is christmas and new year next couple weeks....give them a break!

at least you have an answer.

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

After my positive post comes the negative aspect for me:-

"It does mean that you cant, following an announcement, go and buy young players from a country in the hope that they will rise ... "

As I have commented on this thread many times. SM don't like trading managers & the above is just one of many ways over many months if not years they make it increasingly difficult for trading mangers. Concerns, Chairmans Values (sometimes as low as 40% of another chairmans valuation) are the main ones but there are other smaller details which all have changed against trading managers.

OK we'll have to accept this handicapping, just like making it easier for poor managers who need a colour code to situate their players within a team. Like Chairman giving out cash to managers who fritter it away, like those who need a scouting report & an analysis of who to sell & buy. OK but will SM bring out further ways to help if good managers still come out on top? I hope not & this is the last of extra nanny SM help.

Oh and I hope this promise of a lot slicker reviews, in the future, is not like tomorrow which as we know never actually comes.

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

come on it is christmas and new year next couple weeks....give them a break!

at least you have an answer.

I've been "giving them a break" for a long-time, get on with it, u can have an hour for turkey sandwiches on Boxing Day, when u've finished the Big 5 :eek::rolleyes::D

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

Not announcing the leagues is the worst thing that could have happened.

I dont get time to browse through X amount of leagues to find a player that will get a +7 when he gets reviewed, I also haven't got time to go on SW and vote to get their ratings done quicker. I liked it the old way when the leagues appeared and I could have a quick look and find 3/5 risers to buy and sell after 10 weeks with whichever club I was managinG!!

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

Will there be announcements of which countries are coming next? No - because we expect the daily updates will reflect changes from across all the wiki countries on a daily basis. Overall, we expect that updates should happen more regularly and not limited to a particular region at a time. It does mean that you cant, following an announcement, go and buy young players from a country in the hope that they will rise ... but it does mean that this process will still very much exist as a core concept of the game, it is just that it will refer to a wider base of countries.

I was afraid that this would be the answer but nevertheless it makes me sad.

The funniest part of this game (IMO) has been to take control of a small club and piece by biece build a strong team with solid economy by trading players.

I'm not saying that this will be impossible in the future but it will surely make it a lot more complicated.

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

the strangest thing i find is all the alterations lately, including the awful overview page changes, has been aimed at children, dumbed down to make the game easier.

Now they take away the opportunity of buying risers and selling 10 weeks later, this seems to contradict the earlier changes.

i am happy for them to take away the league review system as it makes the game harder but seeing as 95% of SM users want everything now or are a bunch of quitters when it doesnt go their way, i dont see SM's logic in it.

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

Well, that statement, for the most part, answers our concerns and I have to say it merely serves to confirm my worst fears. 'If it ain't broke, don't fix it' seems to be a phrase that hasnt been heard in their offices, I don't really have too much more to say. I'll probably give it another month or two in the hope I can adapt, but I don't know how that will go.

On a more constructive note, I wish SW would make it possible to vote for more than one change to a players data. I've got quite a few players I can update, but I can't because I've been stuck for weeks with an English player that I edited, since my change won't go through until they review England.

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

Voting - Wiki users vote on data and votes are pooled.

Moderation - To make the voting system fair, the pooled votes are moderated by a system which takes into account various elements designed to ensure that data changes are done fairly and not due to particular biases of voters. Clearly it is not appropriate to discuss the mechanics of the moderation process beyond this as it may make the voting system unfair which would negate the purpose of the wiki communities efforts.

Live - Once data has been successfully moderated, it goes onto the live list which is fed daily into the site.

Why use a Wiki? So the Community can control the database and decide how the database should be

Then give us the power to suggest deserved ratings for players because +5 just doesn't cut it for a lot of players at the moment. I for one won't bother with SW until they they address this and publicly state whether our rating suggestions actually count towards the reviews.

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

i can live with this new methods' date=' as long as they work properly and fast.

But that new icons in Club Messages and News Feeds are plain awful, makes me puke.[/quote']

that makes 2 of us; they're just useless i see no need of them .

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

Well' date=' that statement, for the most part, answers our concerns and I have to say it merely serves to confirm my worst fears. [b']'If it ain't broke, don't fix it'[/b] seems to be a phrase that hasnt been heard in their offices, I don't really have too much more to say. I'll probably give it another month or two in the hope I can adapt, but I don't know how that will go.

On a more constructive note, I wish SW would make it possible to vote for more than one change to a players data. I've got quite a few players I can update, but I can't because I've been stuck for weeks with an English player that I edited, since my change won't go through until they review England.

your not the only one buddy, i can make 20 changes as an admin and they have been stuck since December 8th....IMO they are not taking submissions for any leagues because, again, i think people would have been abusing it, trying to add all manner of youth players/position edits etc so they have switched it off so they can update it in peace!

the strangest thing i find is all the alterations lately' date=' including the awful overview page changes, has been aimed at children, dumbed down to make the game easier.

Now they take away the opportunity of buying risers and selling 10 weeks later, this seems to contradict the earlier changes.

i am happy for them to take away the league review system as it makes the game harder but seeing as 95% of SM users want everything now or are a bunch of quitters when it doesnt go their way, i dont see SM's logic in it.[/quote']

Smut hits the nail on the head regarding 'if it aint broke, dont fix it' - the game is rapidly becoming a hoarding/trading player game with an unhealthy obsession on youth players. It very much needed fixing.

im glad to steps have been taken to abolishing the concept of announcing league reviews then a dash to the forum to ask who to buy / buying risers and selling after 10 weeks. it was a bit of a joke ultimately.

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

There is something i didnt get thought.

After the implementation of SW, and these recent changes, will the league reviews totally disappear leaving only the individual SW reviews, or will the revies still happen (but with no particular order or schedule), leaving SW as an additional feature for individual reviews?

Right now SM is still doing the league reviews of the top leagues, but after that, will they keep doing the reviews or after the big leagues are done it will be individual SW reviews only?

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

I was afraid that this would be the answer but nevertheless it makes me sad.

The funniest part of this game (IMO) has been to take control of a small club and piece by biece build a strong team with solid economy by trading players.

I'm not saying that this will be impossible in the future but it will surely make it a lot more complicated.

I fully agree. I’m also in the situation where I’m the manager of a small team with low budget. With good buys and sells after rising I was able to increase my budget. Or buy talents and wait until they are good enough for the first team.

Part of the solution I see for now: I will still buy potential risers and future stars. I know the rising will probably take longer. To control my wages I will loan them to an external team until I sell them.

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

There is something i didnt get thought.

After the implementation of SW' date=' and these recent changes, will the league reviews totally disappear leaving only the individual SW reviews, or will the revies still happen (but with no particular order or schedule), leaving SW as an additional feature for individual reviews?

Right now SM is still doing the league reviews of the top leagues, but after that, will they keep doing the reviews or after the big leagues are done it will be individual SW reviews only?[/quote']

Yes, I was thinking about that too. Surely there still has to be some kind of focus for reviews to be made. If there is to truly be no league, or other kind of, specific focus at all to changes being made then we're going to find ourselves in a messy situation. You'll have squads where there'll be one or two players who are given huge rises as they breakthrough whilst the rest of the team remain many points below. Indeed, the smaller leagues might never get their fair changes (Poland, Romania, Bulgaria etc) since they are not as attractive for SoccerWiki users to focus on. What happens on SM over the next month or two is going to be interesting to watch.

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

Yes' date=' I was thinking about that too. Surely there still has to be some kind of focus for reviews to be made. If there is to truly be no league, or other kind of, specific focus at all to changes being made then we're going to find ourselves in a messy situation. You'll have squads where there'll be one or two players who are given huge rises as they breakthrough whilst the rest of the team remain many points below. Indeed, the smaller leagues might never get their fair changes (Poland, Romania, Bulgaria etc) since they are not as attractive for SoccerWiki users to focus on. What happens on SM over the next month or two is going to be interesting to watch.[/quote']

SM have left the review situation as follows:-

1) Say they do 50% of say Japan & leave 50% undone... There are no comebacks as they can point out "it is SW community driven"

2) Say Half the risers are overdone & half are underdone or forgotten ... same answer.

3) Whole countries are NEVER DONE .... same answer.

SM could use SW as their personal excuse for being as slow & innefficient as they like. I hope they don't but their record over recent years since Winter/ Summer schedules disappeared doesn't bode well.

Iran was done not so long back & if I remember right, a few risers got ignored. I didn't moan about it I just sold them & there could potentially be for much more "leakage" in this system. We'll see overtime ... but still think SM is driven by not liking "trading" managers,

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

What happens if only one person votes on rating changes?

Looking at the changes SM are making it's very tempting to just pick a small league at random (like Cyprus) and vote on player rating changes having just bought thos players for my teams and give them all generous risers. Knowing that it's highly unlikely anyone will have voted and contradicted my changes.

This new sytem seems very open to manipulation.

They say they will 'moderate' the changes but can anyone seriously see SW looking at each suggested change before 'going live'. And if they did then why dont they just do the changes themselves!?

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

SM have left the review situation as follows:-

1) Say they do 50% of say Japan & leave 50% undone... There are no comebacks as they can point out "it is SW community driven"

2) Say Half the risers are overdone & half are underdone or forgotten ... same answer.

3) Whole countries are NEVER DONE .... same answer.

SM could use SW as their personal excuse for being as slow & innefficient as they like. I hope they don't but their record over recent years since Winter/ Summer schedules disappeared doesn't bode well.

Iran was done not so long back & if I remember right' date=' a few risers got ignored. I didn't moan about it I just sold them & there could potentially be for much more "leakage" in this system. We'll see overtime ... but still think SM is driven by not liking "trading" managers,[/quote']

Points well made :)

What happens if only one person votes on rating changes?

Looking at the changes SM are making it's very tempting to just pick a small league at random (like Cyprus) and vote on player rating changes having just bought thos players for my teams and give them all generous risers. Knowing that it's highly unlikely anyone will have voted and contradicted my changes.

This new sytem seems very open to manipulation.

They say they will 'moderate' the changes but can anyone seriously see SW looking at each suggested change before 'going live'. And if they did then why dont they just do the changes themselves!?

Exactly :)

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

What happens if only one person votes on rating changes?

Looking at the changes SM are making it's very tempting to just pick a small league at random (like Cyprus) and vote on player rating changes having just bought thos players for my teams and give them all generous risers. Knowing that it's highly unlikely anyone will have voted and contradicted my changes.

This new sytem seems very open to manipulation.

They say they will 'moderate' the changes but can anyone seriously see SW looking at each suggested change before 'going live'. And if they did then why dont they just do the changes themselves!?

Surely SM will wait until there is MORE THAN 1 submission before accepting that rating, which again leaves us with a problem. If u spot someone everybody else has missed & they don't because it's N.Korea say .... Sorry no rise :(

The ideal situation is more than 10 submit ratings which average at a rise of 4.5 and SM decide they should err on the side of caution & give him 4 :) or disagree and give him say +8 .... becos of course we are limited to a max of 5 on many ratings .... farcical :D So first 4.5 is wrong & 2nd they didn't need the submissions if they were going to give him +8 - Wrong in either case.

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Re: Guess at next leagues to be reviewed, & discuss SM's review policy........

Smut hits the nail on the head regarding 'if it aint broke' date=' dont fix it' - the game is rapidly becoming a hoarding/trading player game with an unhealthy obsession on youth players. It very much needed fixing.

im glad to steps have been taken to abolishing the concept of announcing league reviews then a dash to the forum to ask who to buy / buying risers and selling after 10 weeks. it was a bit of a joke ultimately.[/quote']

Has the hoarding/trading player part of this game stopped or seen any sign of changing? Nope, if anything it has got worse. When SM introduced player concerns i thought it was a step forward in the positive direction in stopping teams hoard players and in turn would allow other teams to have a equal balance of top players across the GW as that should be the aim of SM, not letting 4/5 clubs have all the best players with no plan on selling.

But roll on a few weeks of people coming on the forum and moaning and SM introduce a method of first, loaning out players to external clubs and second letting them address concerns. All this has done has appeased the managers who are in charge of the big clubs as they can pay off any concerns which players may gain as they have the resources to do it.

The problem for me isn't coming into a gameworld and seeing Barnet or Crewe with an array of 93 rated players and 100 youth players as we know that can't happen, only in sum very rare case's of manager excellence. It's down to the big clubs, the way the game is designed if you are in charge of one of these clubs you can just go out and buy all the top talent, sit them in the reverses or loan them out. If they gain concerns, can just pay it off.

I'm in one gameworld where if any new player comes onto the database for example andrea petagna 75 rated AC Milan. Within the first 24 hours Man Utd, Barca, Arsenal, PSG, all put the max bids in for that player. Which sadly only seems to be a worrying trend as only the big clubs put bids in as they are the only ones with money to throw about like this. Other smaller clubs have to watch what they spend, where you have the situation can i really spend £3million on a 75 player who might end up not making the first team. It's not healthy for the game in the long run.

I can kind of agree with what SM has done with not planning to announce the review of future leagues. As you could say it was an unfair way of making extra money. But if you was in charge of a small club you might feel a bit different about it, i can honestly say, I've never seen anyone at Arsenal or Man Utd having use them tactics to complete with transfers or just keep their balance out of the red.

With the new system, i will have to change my approach to how many i buy and for how long. Personally from now on i will just be buying people from the big leagues, as they will have more chance of being reviewed more often than someone from Estonia.

I also share other peoples views on what will happen to the lower European/World leagues with how often they are reviewed. I can see a setup like this being used

1. Only the top 6/7 leagues being reviewed more regular, thanks to user input from soccerwiki and because of their interest in them leagues, teams and star players.

2. Smaller leagues will fall off the radar like Iran, South Africa, Australia and Japan etc as people who use soccerwiki won't bother looking at them.

3. Young world talent outside the top 6/7 leagues will only get reviewed as people will buy them for their team and demand they have top ratings so will vote for them, creating an in balance within the leagues they play in, if other players aren't done as well.

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