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Re: Match engine

So, the first match I'm looking at is in the Forum Championship Division 3 match between my own Gremio and the Com managed Besiktas.

gremiovbesitkasmr.jpg

gremvbesmatchstats.jpg

The first thing of note is the goalkeeper ratings.

Gremio had 14 shots on target to Besiktas's 8; yet Gremio's keeper rated a 7 to Unlu's 5. Add to this the fact that Besiktas won the game.

Now, of course stats such as this can be misleading, so I'm hopping to monitor this sort of apparent anomaly ongoing to support the belief that the match engine is random and match ratings are meaningless.

Another interesting point is the squad average rating. Gremio was 89; Besiktas was 82.

note to self: those images are bit too big, buddy.

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Re: Match engine

I've had a GK getting man of match and having 5 shots on target & conceding 5 :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

It cannot be other than cosmetic ratings :(:(:(

Im hoping this kinda thing will disappear with the new ME. I'm also hoping totally unfit unmanaged sides will stop beating TOP SKILLED opposition. They better change this. Can U imagine a new ME with the same total STUPIDITY???

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Re: Match engine

I've had a GK getting man of match and having 5 shots on target & conceding 5 :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

It cannot be other than cosmetic ratings :(:(:(

Im hoping this kinda thing will disappear with the new ME. I'm also hoping totally unfit unmanaged sides will stop beating TOP SKILLED opposition. They better change this. Can U imagine a new ME with the same total STUPIDITY???

I too have noted with some incredulity the frequency with which unmanaged clubs playing 4-4-2 with vastly inferior rated teams beat a good managed team.

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Re: Match engine

If you look hard enough for a reason you can find one & 6 why YOUR side should win. Doesn't change the fact this ME has far too many freak results!

Yes, dear, that's my point. This is not about the result. It's about the ratings/engines/tactics.

The above discussed match is just a starting point.

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Re: Match engine

To be equitable I will look at all matches in this turn Div 3 of Forum Championship....

Palermo 1 - 0 Sporting

Possession

51% 49%

Total Shots

12 14

Shots On Target

6 10

Corners

8 4

Yellow Cards

0 2

Red Cards

0 0

Palermo goalkeeper, Casillas was MotM with a 9 while Sporting's keeper, Santos got a 6. This seems to align with the match stats.

Palermo played 3-2-2-1

Sporting played 4-4-1-1 with some runs made by a CB (fwd); and CMs (6[an AM] RFW; 8 [CM/AM] RBW)

Hmmm, do runs make a difference? in the two matches looked at so far the two teams who made runs have lost.

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Re: Match engine

Next game up - Olympiakos v Panathanaikos

olyvpanamatchstats.jpg

Olympiakos managed by Racky; Pana managed by Com

Olympiakos 'keeper had one shot to save and failed; Pan 'keeper had 8 shots to save and made seven saves. So, you expect the Olympiakos 'keeper to score low and Pana 'keeper to score high, right?

Let's see....

olyvpankeepers.jpg

So, another anomaly with the 'keeper match ratings.:confused:

And not only that, the one goal the Pan keeper did concede was a penalty. Zarate the penalty scorer was MotM.

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Re: Match engine

Grand so, Stuart. I'll keep going nonetheless.

Athletic Club 2 - 3 Spartak Moscow

Possession

44% 56%

Total Shots

22 15

Shots On Target

15 13

Corners

4 8

Yellow Cards

1 1

Red Cards

0 0

Interesting to see the possession stats here compared to the shots. Also interesting to see that the match was won by the posession dominator rather than the shot dominator.

Also worth noting is the half time score of 0 - 3. Atheltic pulled it round a bit on the second half yet no tactical changes were made by either side. perhaps Spartak weren't fully fit.

Formations:

Ath: 3-5-2

spar: 4-5-1

The average team ratings were

Athletic: 90

Spartak: 84

athvspar.jpg

athvspar2.jpg

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Re: Match engine

Grand so' date=' Stuart. I'll keep going nonetheless.

[center']Athletic Club 2 - 3 Spartak Moscow

Possession

44% 56%

Total Shots

22 15

Shots On Target

15 13

Corners

4 8

Yellow Cards

1 1

Red Cards

0 0 [/center]

Interesting to see the possession stats here compared to the shots. Also interesting to see that the match was won by the posession dominator rather than the shot dominator.

Also worth noting is the half time score of 0 - 3. Atheltic pulled it round a bit on the second half yet no tactical changes were made by either side. perhaps Spartak weren't fully fit.

Formations:

Ath: 3-5-2

spar: 4-5-1

The average team ratings were

Athletic: 90

Spartak: 84

athvspar.jpg

athvspar2.jpg

Thats my team Athletic. lets complain it to SM, the new engine still has no improvement over previous one. the results nowdays look unexplainable, i mean too much unreasonable result!

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  • 4 weeks later...

Re: Match engine

Is there a new engine recently?

I'm more concerned about conflicting tactics and instructions but still giving result.

Also, set piece takers etc. Is it better to choose the highest stat, or somebody who is truly better in reality? For example, some expert free kick taker may not have as high a stat as another player.

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Re: Match engine

Apparently there was supposed to be a new match engine but nothing has changed. Everything seems to be exactly the same to me.

Ok I think they're still working on that.

Hopefully they fix all the major problems, another one I seem to see people complaining is tired clubs still winning games easily. Imo, any club with <70% average XI condition should find it VERY hard to win games unless their average XI is >5 of opponent.

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Re: Match engine

In the last week I've been getting far too many shock results across many teams for something not to be amiss.

Anyone else sensing a difference?

ya..somewhat

went up against a much weaker side away from home tonite who had 7 players nmf prior to the match, u ised the same formation as i always do to beat teams stronger than me when playing against 442.. but i lost tonite.. frustrats me alot

i did have a midfielder sent off after 30 odd mins but coming up against a much weaker and nmf side i exspected to win espcially since the form/tacts i used would normally beat even a top side.

my problim is not that i lost because of tactics etc but because of a dodgy engine.. mind you seeing my players all get 8 ratings and the other team getting 2 4's, 1 5, 4 6's & 4 7's what will frustrate me is that in the next matches i'll use the same form against stronger team and win 7-0 9-0 etc

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Re: Match engine

Since we're at the same topic, I'll post my suggestions here and hopefully SM uses this thread as a guide for its new and upcoming Match Engine.

I don't know how exactly the new engine will work but I feel a good distribution will be something like:

60% player stats + conditions

30% tactics + instructions

10% morale + luck + home advantage + weather

Quick explanations:

- Player stats and conditions are the most important factor of any game anywhere, thus ~60%.

- Tactics and instructions are important, but most of the times it only get you so far as to about 30%.

- Player morale is part of the performance, if a team is on a losing streak, the low morale will affect the entire team. Weather, luck and home advantage is part of the game too. Overall, I find 10% a fair number.

I think the current engine is too simple. Thus, the results generated probably depended on only 2 variables, counter tactics & player/team stat. This may be one of the main reasons for inconsistent results. I'm fine with some randomness in the game, but I think currently like some might describe, dodgy/shock/bizarre/freak.

So here are some of my suggestions regarding Match Engine. Everyone is free to comment and add on more ideas to build a better game.

Suggestions:

Player Fatigue

I personally feel low fatigue should affect a player traumatically. Players with less than 60% condition should perform poorly.

We have a very nice status now called "NMF = not match fit", let it have a bigger impact on the game.

Suggestion: A player with NMF status will perform only 95% of his ability. [e.g. stat 80 player will perform as if he were stat 76 (95% x 80)]. NMF player will also have an increased chance of getting injured in a game.

Star Players

Superstar players. I personally rate them as someone having a stat of 95 or above.

I assume the current match engine works only on team average stat. That is insufficient to depict a contrast for these star players in the game. They are game changers, not just make up the average.

Suggestion: For every stat 95 or above player a team fields, the team will have a +5% chance of winning the game. Cap at 10%.

Player Position, Mentality & Arrows

Honestly, I'm not quite sure what those arrows do and if they are in effect lol. Common sense says it is where the players will move, but I think many gamers do not know if it is even useful or not.

May I suggest to abolish the arrows entirely and implement a more direct and simple drop down selection for each player.

The new FM has too removed the arrows system and introduce a player position system. I think that might be too complex for SM, so I suggest to have a "mentality" option for each position at tactics screen.

Suggestion: 3 different mentality for each position when setting tactics. Offensive/Normal/Defensive. So if your team tactics is very defensive, naturally you will want to have more players or certain positions to be on the defensive. Especially the ambiguous positions like CM/AM/DM. If played correctly, it'll help the team's chances of achieving a desirable result.

Hidden Stats

I find a single number stat is fine in SM. However, I would like the game to have a few distinct hidden stats. It can be simple ratings like A,B,C or more exact numbers. A = Very good. B = Fair. C = Poor.

For example, some players may have high overall stats but they're not as good in taking set piece as some others who are lower.

The three distinct hidden stats I'm in for are:

- Set pieces (FK/CK/PK)

- Captain

- Injury

Suggestion: Introduce hidden stats. If set correctly, it'll help the team in achieving a desirable result.

Primary and Secondary Tactics (P&S tactic)

Every team and managers have their own familiar and preferred tactics. Right now, most teams aim to counter tactics which is acceptable because there are too few other variables in the game. However, this is not very ideal for teams who come out with a solid game plan or who are supposed to be familiar with their tactics if they played it all the time.

If the idea is implemented correctly, it could reduce the necessity for teams changing tactics every now and then as constant twinkling of tactics is not very good in reality too.

Suggestion:

I recommend the addition of Primary & Secondary tactics. For example I can set 4-4-2 as my primary tactic, and 4-5-1 as my secondary tactic.

Teams can set their P&S tactics at the start of the game. Once the tactics are set, it will be in effect for at least 10 turns (example). After 10 turns, managers are free to keep or alter their P&S tactics. Do note that once altered, the new preferred tactics will be in effect for the next 10 turns again.

Managers are still allowed to use other tactics other than their P&S tactics.

Primary tactic: +5% chance of winning, -5% chance of losing.

Secondary tactic: +2% chance of winning, -2% chance of losing.

Conflicting Commands and Tactics

Some tactics are more offensive or defensive than others. So they should work better if played correctly. The same goes to instructions. For example a "Men behind ball" and "very attacking" should not work as well. Sometime it may work, but if it works all the time then something might not be right.

Weather Effect

During a wet weather, a team is more likely to benefit from direct or long gameplay than short passes.

-------------------------------

The numbers and percentage suggested are only a variable, they may be changed for the benefit of the game.

All these suggestions if implemented correctly will help to reduce freak results.

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Re: Match engine

Since we're at the same topic' date=' I'll post my suggestions here and hopefully SM uses this thread as a guide for its new and upcoming [b']Match Engine[/b].

I don't know how exactly the new engine will work but I feel a good distribution will be something like:

60% player stats + conditions

30% tactics + instructions

10% morale + luck + home advantage + weather

Quick explanations:

- Player stats and conditions are the most important factor of any game anywhere, thus ~60%.

- Tactics and instructions are important, but most of the times it only get you so far as to about 30%.

- Player morale is part of the performance, if a team is on a losing streak, the low morale will affect the entire team. Weather, luck and home advantage is part of the game too. Overall, I find 10% a fair number.

I think the current engine is too simple. Thus, the results generated probably depended on only 2 variables, counter tactics & player/team stat. This may be one of the main reasons for inconsistent results. I'm fine with some randomness in the game, but I think currently like some might describe, dodgy/shock/bizarre/freak.

So here are some of my suggestions regarding Match Engine. Everyone is free to comment and add on more ideas to build a better game.

Suggestions:

Player Fatigue

I personally feel low fatigue should affect a player traumatically. Players with less than 60% condition should perform poorly.

We have a very nice status now called "NMF = not match fit", let it have a bigger impact on the game.

Suggestion: A player with NMF status will perform only 95% of his ability. [e.g. stat 80 player will perform as if he were stat 76 (95% x 80)]. NMF player will also have an increased chance of getting injured in a game.

Star Players

Superstar players. I personally rate them as someone having a stat of 95 or above.

I assume the current match engine works only on team average stat. That is insufficient to depict a contrast for these star players in the game. They are game changers, not just make up the average.

Suggestion: For every stat 95 or above player a team fields, the team will have a +5% chance of winning the game. Cap at 10%.

Player Position, Mentality & Arrows

Honestly, I'm not quite sure what those arrows do and if they are in effect lol. Common sense says it is where the players will move, but I think many gamers do not know if it is even useful or not.

May I suggest to abolish the arrows entirely and implement a more direct and simple drop down selection for each player.

The new FM has too removed the arrows system and introduce a player position system. I think that might be too complex for SM, so I suggest to have a "mentality" option for each position at tactics screen.

Suggestion: 3 different mentality for each position when setting tactics. Offensive/Normal/Defensive. So if your team tactics is very defensive, naturally you will want to have more players or certain positions to be on the defensive. Especially the ambiguous positions like CM/AM/DM. If played correctly, it'll help the team's chances of achieving a desirable result.

Hidden Stats

I find a single number stat is fine in SM. However, I would like the game to have a few distinct hidden stats. It can be simple ratings like A,B,C or more exact numbers. A = Very good. B = Fair. C = Poor.

For example, some players may have high overall stats but they're not as good in taking set piece as some others who are lower.

The three distinct hidden stats I'm in for are:

- Set pieces (FK/CK/PK)

- Captain

- Injury

Suggestion: Introduce hidden stats. If set correctly, it'll help the team in achieving a desirable result.

Primary and Secondary Tactics (P&S tactic)

Every team and managers have their own familiar and preferred tactics. Right now, most teams aim to counter tactics which is acceptable because there are too few other variables in the game. However, this is not very ideal for teams who come out with a solid game plan or who are supposed to be familiar with their tactics if they played it all the time.

If the idea is implemented correctly, it could reduce the necessity for teams changing tactics every now and then as constant twinkling of tactics is not very good in reality too.

Suggestion:

I recommend the addition of Primary & Secondary tactics. For example I can set 4-4-2 as my primary tactic, and 4-5-1 as my secondary tactic.

Teams can set their P&S tactics at the start of the game. Once the tactics are set, it will be in effect for at least 10 turns (example). After 10 turns, managers are free to keep or alter their P&S tactics. Do note that once altered, the new preferred tactics will be in effect for the next 10 turns again.

Managers are still allowed to use other tactics other than their P&S tactics.

Primary tactic: +5% chance of winning, -5% chance of losing.

Secondary tactic: +2% chance of winning, -2% chance of losing.

Conflicting Commands and Tactics

Some tactics are more offensive or defensive than others. So they should work better if played correctly. The same goes to instructions. For example a "Men behind ball" and "very attacking" should not work as well. Sometime it may work, but if it works all the time then something might not be right.

Weather Effect

During a wet weather, a team is more likely to benefit from direct or long gameplay than short passes.

-------------------------------

The numbers and percentage suggested are only a variable, they may be changed for the benefit of the game.

All these suggestions if implemented correctly will help to reduce freak results.

i totally like this idea.

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Guest SM Dev (Ste)

Re: Match engine

Thanks to everyone for providing valuable feedback regarding the match engine. If you haven't read this post then it is advisable as we are currently working on several areas surrounding match day.

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Re: Match engine

It is good to know the Match Engine ideas are being read and considered.

~

Currently I have 3 smaller ideas to add on... they are related to Gold membership too.

I find Gold membership is not very useful in normal gameplay or overall experience, and I'm sure I'm not alone lol. Right now, I think gamers find the important parts of Gold member are being able to make/control gameworlds, play in gold gameworlds, and maybe stored tactics.

I think introducing certain new functions can help improve the image and drawing power of Gold membership without spoiling the game.

1. Match Engine & Gold

I personally feel the new match engine should not only become more advanced as mentioned earlier, but also certain parts of the tactics should be hidden. For example, the instructions such as playing style etc.

Perhaps only some information such as set piece takers, captains, and formation should be revealed.

Why is this so? Similar to real life and also FM, your opponent does not tell you how they will or had played.

How will it improve game experience? It brings along a little secrecy about a manager's gameplan. You can see his formation but you don't know what he tells his team. That is absolutely normal and should be the way.

It will certainly reduce cloning of tactics and encourage managers to come up with their own gameplan. This gives managers an opportunity to come up with a tactic of their own, if it is very solid, he may even be using the same tactic for more than a season. Look at top teams such as Barca, Madrid etc, they don't change tactics every month.

Here comes the Gold membership, Gold members will be able to see complete tactics of other players (as it is currently). However, they cannot view fellow Gold members full tactics.

2. Transfers & Gold

We all know waiting for AI to respond to transfer deals takes about a day, +/- few hours.

Let Gold members know the exact timing the AI will respond. For example, a countdown timer that can only be seen by Gold members. That can allow them to make last minute bids.

Extra options such as the option to set max bid can be considered too.

i.e they set 2 bids: £10M normal bid, £15M max bid.

If the £10M bid is beaten by someone else, but not the £15M, the bidder will win the transfer with £15M.

3. Shortlist & Gold

Non-gold members will have a shortlist capped at a certain figure. For example, 50.

If they had more than 50 when their gold membership expires, they are only allowed to remove but not add players to their shortlist.

Gold members have no limit.

I feel these ideas can help enhance the ability of Gold members but at the same time not impair the normal gamers.

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Re: Match engine

I am just FURIOUS with SM..i REALLY love this game(ok not that much as football manager :P ) but it makes me sick...

Well,the think is that i manage liverpool in WC2471 and my squad's value is about 550mil. and after the changes maybe it will reach 570-580.

i definetely manage the best club in my world

and this is a link without my youth team to prove it

http://forum.soccermanager.com/showthread.php?t=106635

Anyway i don't mean to be arrogant .At the moment i am not doing great,i am in 7th place.Actually i suck..

Schalke which is a good team too,but nothing to compare with mine,is placed 3rd

ok dear programmers of the game machine.. let's accept that..let's accept the fact that if i have no suspensions and injuries my team's average rating is 95 but despite of this i am positioned 7th and lose in Anfield by teams with average rating of 90..OK!!!!!YEEES!!!I accept that

BUT DEAR SOCCERMANAGER Schalke is 3rd and Schalke's manager hasn't logged in for 28 F***ING DAYS :@

In these 28 days Schalke has done:

1 defeat

1 draw aaaaaand...............

6 wins!!!!!

OF COURSE BECAUSE THIS SEEMS VERY REASONABLE!!!!

among this 6 wins schalke has beaten the,objectively,four best teams in WC2471 (except my liverpool) which are Real Madrit,Bayern Munchen,Internazionale and ManUtd

the draw was with barcelona which is 1st and as it seems will win the championship

and the SUPER-SCHALKE dream team (chuck norris may be the manager.I haven't thought that never before) was beaten by an unmanaged Manchester City whose overall squad value is 148mil.

You can check all these by your own if you don't believe me..

One think to say..

I AM DISGUSTED

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Re: Match engine

I am just FURIOUS with SM..i REALLY love this game(ok not that much as football manager :P ) but it makes me sick...

Well' date='the think is that i manage liverpool in WC2471 and my squad's value is about 550mil. and after the changes maybe it will reach 570-580.

i definetely manage the best club in my world

and this is a link without my youth team to prove it

[url']http://forum.soccermanager.com/showthread.php?t=106635[/url]

Anyway i don't mean to be arrogant .At the moment i am not doing great,i am in 7th place.Actually i suck..

Schalke which is a good team too,but nothing to compare with mine,is placed 3rd

ok dear programmers of the game machine.. let's accept that..let's accept the fact that if i have no suspensions and injuries my team's average rating is 95 but despite of this i am positioned 7th and lose in Anfield by teams with average rating of 90..OK!!!!!YEEES!!!I accept that

BUT DEAR SOCCERMANAGER Schalke is 3rd and Schalke's manager hasn't logged in for 28 F***ING DAYS :@

In these 28 days Schalke has done:

1 defeat

1 draw aaaaaand...............

6 wins!!!!!

OF COURSE BECAUSE THIS SEEMS VERY REASONABLE!!!!

among this 6 wins schalke has beaten the,objectively,four best teams in WC2471 (except my liverpool) which are Real Madrit,Bayern Munchen,Internazionale and ManUtd

the draw was with barcelona which is 1st and as it seems will win the championship

and the SUPER-SCHALKE dream team (chuck norris may be the manager.I haven't thought that never before) was beaten by an unmanaged Manchester City whose overall squad value is 148mil.

You can check all these by your own if you don't believe me..

One think to say..

I AM DISGUSTED

Well that link doesn't prove a lot, but I'll take your word for it. The game engine isn't perfect - far from it in fact. However even if you have the best squad in the GW (which you may or my not), if your tactics suck, then you will lose.

You may be a good squad builder / inheritor, however maybe not a good manager.

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